What type of agnostic are you?

radiat

I haven't posted on board before, but just wanted to find out the difference between an atheist and an agnostic. According to wikipedia:

"Within agnosticism there are agnostic atheists (who do not believe any deity exists, but do not deny it as a possibility) and agnostic theists (who believe a God exists but do not claim to know that)."

So what kind of agnostics are here?

MagicMarker

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056418734

Half and half.

Dades

I am an agnostic atheist (as per the definition above).

I'd say most here are the same.

PlainP

Think I'm just an agnostic then, I don't believe in any god or don't believe that he/she/it could ever exist.

Red21

Dades wrote: »

I am an agnostic atheist (as per the definition above).

I'd say most here are the same.

So what do you ( agnostic atheist) think the chances of a deity existing are?

MagicMarker

PlainP wrote: »

Think I'm just an agnostic then, I don't believe in any god or don't believe that he/she/it could ever exist.

You're an atheist then.

MagicMarker

Red21 wrote: »

So what do you ( agnostic atheist) think the chances of a deity existing are?

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The Sparrow

MagicMarker wrote: »

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That much, huh?! :P

PlainP

MagicMarker wrote: »

You're an atheist then.

Thanks for clearing that up

Sarky

The type that doesn't worry about labelling all that much. I don't mind what others call me, as long as I can hold the position that religions are silly and societies across the world would be so much better if everyone thought straight for five minutes.

raah!

MagicMarker wrote: »

0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...00001%.

Naturally you are joking with this larger figure, but do you realise that therre is very littler difference between saying that "I believe that god does not exist" and "I believe the chances of god existing are very very low".

Speaking probabilistically does not suddenly mean you hold an agnostic position. What you have said here, which is the view held by most posters on this forum is not the same as plain old agnosticism. You might admit that it's impossible for you to have knowledge of this probability, but you go ahead and assert it anyway, and we know that you believe it. An plain agnostic, who is not a theist, would "lack belief in god" but would also believe in the impossibility of knowledge relating to this, so therefore would not be able to go into how likely/unlikely it is.

The most common view on this forum is exactly "belief in non-existence", poorly hidden in some probability of which the proponents claim to have no knowledge of.

MagicMarker

raah! wrote: »

Naturally you are joking with this larger figure, but do you realise that therre is very littler difference between saying that "I believe that god does not exist
" and "I believe the chances of god existing are very very low".

Speaking probabilistically does not suddenly mean you hold an agnostic position. What you have said here, which is the view held by most posters on this forum is not the same as plain old agnosticism. You might admit that it's impossible for you to have knowledge of this probability, but you go ahead and assert it anyway, and we know that you believe it. An plain agnostic, who is not a theist, would "lack belief in god" but would also believe in the impossibility of knowledge relating to this, so therefore would not be able to go into how likely/unlikely it is.

The most common view on this forum is exactly "belief in non-existence", poorly hidden in some probability of which the proponents claim to have no knowledge of.

Do you take all posts literally?

raah!

So you don't think it's unlikely that god exists?

I know this is what you think, but feel free to avoid addressing what I said. I understood that your large figure was a jest. But do you think it's unlikely god exists?

If you want to say that it's not unlikely then that's fine too, but this would be rather inconsistent with most of the other things you have said in the past.

Also, I don't really mind if this is the view that you particularly hold, I am quoting what you are saying as a starting point for a discussion of the differences between plain agnosticism and "agnostic" atheism.

Edit : Also, fun ahem, semantic, fact, even if someone took your post literally, it would mean pretty much the exact same thing as if they took it figuratively; that the probability of god's existence is low. I obviously took it in a figurative sense when I said "naturally that exact figure is a joke but..."

MagicMarker

raah! wrote: »

So you don't think it's unlikely that god exists?

I know this is what you think, but feel free to avoid addressing what I said. I understood that your large figure was a jest. But do you think it's unlikely god exists?

If you want to say that it's not unlikely then that's fine too, but this would be rather inconsistent with most of the other things you have said in the past.

Also, I don't really mind if this is the view that you particularly hold, I am quoting what you are saying as a starting point for a discussion of the differences between plain agnosticism and "agnostic" atheism.

Edit : Also, fun grammatical fact, even if someone took your post literally, it would mean pretty much the exact same thing as if they took it figuratively; that the probability of god's existence is low. I obviously took it in a figurative sense when I said "naturally that exact figure is a joke but..."

Of course I think it's unlikely.

As an agnostic I admit that it's impossible to know whether or not a god exists. That doesn't mean I can't come to a conclusion on the probability of his existence based on the evidence for or against such a notion, that's why I'm also an atheist.

raah!

And that's not agnosticism. It's a very different position from that of a "plain agnostic" and it's not very accurate to describe yourself in anyway as an agnostic atheist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify knowledge whether God exists or does not.

It does mean you can't come to a conclusion about the probability of God's existence. If you say "the probability weighs in the favour of his no existing" then you've just come to the conclusion. You are hiding behind this false notion that people who believe things are "completely 100% certain" where are you are "agnostically probabilistic".

Here is another quote from Thomas Huxley:

It is no use to talk to me of analogies and probabilities. I know what I mean when I say I believe in the law of the inverse squares, and I will not rest my life and my hopes upon weaker convictions..

So you hold the position that god doesn't exist, you know you believe god doesn't exist. Hiding this behind probabilistic language does not make you the same as a "plain old agnostic", it would not really even be accurate to describe yourself as an "agnostic atheist". It would be useful certainly, but not for accurate description.

Also note, everyone every day can only make probabilistic claims about anything that's in the world. Saying that your views on god are probabilistic doesn't mean anything special. This is what Thomas Huxley is getting at there, he is trying to avoid those type of word games.

Sarky

Christ, not again.

Dades

raah, I see no inconsistency with the agnosticism you describe and the agnosticism you see people claiming here.

Also, any attempt to put a "probability" on the existence of god(s) is only ever going to be a bit of pointless brain stretching, not to be taken seriously.

Stercus Accidit

Agnostic Atheist, but I completely reject any of the stories of gods that men have come up with by default. I could make one up and it would be as valid.

I do prefer to call myself 'non religious', it just seems to be less confusing to others with subtle definitions of atheism and agnosticism not being commonly known. Besides, labels are a convenience for the labeler, not the labelee.

raah!

It is in precisely this pointless probability assignment that the inconsistency lies. Now while any numerical probability assignments are likely to be jokes, people do often assign a qualitative probability to God's existence. The inconsistency is with the two statements:

In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify knowledge whether God exists or does not.

-From the wiki

And the commonly heard :
"God probably doesn't exist"
From the purportedly agnostic atheist.

Now, this of course would not be inconsistent if they were to say "I believe that god doesn't exist though I don't have any irrefutable rational justification for this", and I have read this here before, but that is not the fashionable line of argument at the moment.

The fashionable line is "I don't believe anything, I simply lack believe, as agnostics do - but god probably doesn't exist"

And it is precisely these "atheism is a lack and agnostics are all atheists with no difference" crowd that say there is no difference.

Whatever words you use, there is a massive difference in the beliefs or strengths of beliefs of the self described 'agnostic atheist' and the self descrfibed 'agnostic'. This difference of belief manifests itself differently in the different things they say.

For example; if you know that god doesn't exist, then you know it's stupid to believe as such. You'll then be more prone to engage in the kind of mockery which is more often associated with people who self describe as atheists than those who self describe as agnostics.

Turtwig

I'm sorry but I regard any atheist who knows God doesn't exist as delusional as the person who knows He does exist. Both are irrationally stupid point of views.

raah!

Yes I should have added the qualifiers I had been adding all along till then in that last sentence. If you know god probably doesn't exist... etc.

This makes no difference to whether or not you are an agnostic, saying probably, since the agnostic position is about the possibility of knowledge, and not the strength of the knowledge.

For example the person who says "I know god doesn't exist" is just as much not an agnostic as the person who says "I know god probably doesn't exist". They both seem to think that knowledge about this is possible, and are therefore not agnostics.

MagicMarker

Is there a semantics forum that raah! can post in?

recedite

In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify knowledge whether God exists or does not.

But you can still hold a belief about something, without having sufficient proof to give certain knowledge. Hence the agnostic atheist and the agnostic theist.
I'm guessing you now realise that you fall into the second category.

The more time you spend on this forum raah, the more the quality of your posts has improved. Over to the dark side you will come, soon, young padawan.

marty1985

raah! don't drink the Kool Aid!

Red21

+1 on what raah! said.

Just to be clear - I think religion is a load of nonsense.

So i've another question.
When a person dies the brain shuts down and the body decays apart from this what do agnostic atheist ( regular posters here ) think happens in relation to an afterlife, by this i'm asking what do you think the chances are of anything more happening?

Sarky

Red21 wrote: »

what do you think the chances are of anything more happening?

So slim it's not worth worrying about.

MagicMarker

Red21 wrote: »

When a person dies the brain shuts down and the body decays apart from this what do agnostic atheist ( regular posters here ) think happens in relation to an afterlife, by this i'm asking what do you think the chances are of anything more happening?

Seriously? What do you think?

Red21

MagicMarker wrote: »

Seriously? What do you think?

If you're asking what I think you think- I think you think nothing happens.

If you're asking what I think - I don't know what happens or if anything happens. I also think that people who claim that nothing happens are claiming to know something that they couldn't possibly know.

As for people who believe very strongly that nothing else will happen i'm curious to know what it is that makes them believe so strongly that nothing else will happen.

MagicMarker

Red21 wrote: »

As for people who believe very strongly that nothing else will happen i'm curious to know what it is that makes them believe so strongly that nothing else will happen.

Because there is no evidence to believe that anything happens.

strobe

Sarky wrote: »

Christ, not again.

Way to put a spoiler on the second coming man.

You sure told Him.

raah!

recedite wrote: »

But you can still hold a belief about something, without having sufficient proof to give certain knowledge. Hence the agnostic atheist and the agnostic theist.
I'm guessing you now realise that you fall into the second category.

The more time you spend on this forum raah, the more the quality of your posts has improved. Over to the dark side you will come, soon, young padawan.

Wow...First of all read my post, and you'll see why what you have posted here is ...stupid.

Second of all would you care to show any one single instance of me changing my views on anything on this forum from what I already had?

Seriously, don't waste my time with these repulsive pieces of "atheist good, theist bad" unless you read my posts first.

Dades

raah! - less of the testy ad hominem, please.

Red21 wrote: »

I also think that people who claim that nothing happens are claiming to know something that they couldn't possibly know.

Agreed.

Red21 wrote: »

As for people who believe very strongly that nothing else will happen i'm curious to know what it is that makes them believe so strongly that nothing else will happen.

There's no reason to believe anything else will happen. Our consciousness comes from our brain; when the brain is destroyed it seems logical that our consciousness is gone too. Just like we assume this happens with snails and cows and lemurs.

Des Carter

Agnostic theist - I believe that a "God" exists but dont know/can't prove it, its just a personal belief.

Dades wrote: »

There's no reason to believe anything else will happen.

There is the countless claims of outer-body, near death experiences where people saw themselves go to heaven or hell - all with incredible similarities. Although these can be explained away etc its still evidence that there is some type of afterlife

Dades

Des Carter wrote: »

There is the countless claims of outer-body, near death experiences where people saw themselves go to heaven or hell - all with incredible similarities. Although these can be explained away etc its still evidence that there is some type of afterlife

People's oxygen starved hallucinations are not evidence. There's as many people who have seen and been taken by UFOs.

MagicMarker

Des Carter wrote: »

Although these can be explained away etc its still evidence that there is some type of afterlife

If someone sees Elvis at the foot of their bed eating a cheeseburger is this evidence that Elvis is alive?

Des Carter

Dades wrote: »

People's oxygen starved hallucinations are not evidence. There's as many people who have seen and been taken by UFOs.

I never said it was proof, its evidence, very weak evidence but evidence all the same.

MagicMarker

Des Carter wrote: »

I never said it was proof, its evidence, very weak evidence but evidence all the same.

Proof and evidence are the same thing.

Des Carter

MagicMarker wrote: »

Proof and evidence are the same thing.

no. Evidence shows that something might be true.
Proof shows that something definitely is true.

Des Carter

MagicMarker wrote: »

If someone sees Elvis at the foot of their bed eating a cheeseburger is this evidence that Elvis is alive?

No but if thousands of people have claimed to see him then it would be.

marty1985

MagicMarker wrote: »

Proof and evidence are the same thing.

Consider yourself exempt from jury duty.

Turtwig

Des Carter wrote: »

No but if thousands of people have claimed to see him then it would be.

Really, just thousands?

Des Carter

Malty_T wrote: »

Really, just thousands?

ok millions

Delirium

Des Carter wrote: »

I never said it was proof, its evidence, very weak evidence but evidence all the same.

In that case, there is evidence I can fly unaided, am possibly immortal and was briefly involved in a sexual encounter with Jessica Alba.

I'm really liking this idea of "experiences" from the land of dream are now considered evidence :pac:

Turtwig

Des Carter wrote: »

ok millions

Just millions?

Sarky

koth wrote: »

briefly involved in a sexual encounter with Jessica Alba.

Really? Just briefly?

Turtwig

Sarky wrote: »

Really? Just briefly?

Every religion has got its nasty secrets this one is no different.

Delirium

Sarky wrote: »

Really? Just briefly?

That's only because a cat-fight broke out between her and the other women in the room :P

MagicMarker

Des Carter wrote: »

no. Evidence shows that something might be true.
Proof shows that something definitely is true.

Apologies, brain fart on my part.

Even so, people having hallucinations is still not evidence of an afterlife, and it's quite a leap to suggest that it is.

Dades

I guess it's down to wording and how it's put.

To suggest that peoples "out of body experiences" (hallucinations) are evidence of an afterlife sounds just wrong. However this is probably correct under the actual meaning of the term evidence - which is very distinct from proof.

Wiki suggests: "Evidence is the currency by which one fulfills the burden of proof."

So what this suggests is that the existence of something that could be called evidence (which in itself is subjective*) in no way proves anything by default. The problem is simply saying evidence "exists" is somewhat misrepresenting the reality where the evidence is really very poor. Instead the impression is given that the case could very well be proven when in fact it's nowhere near the truth.

* Take the "No atheists in foxholes" argument. For many theists this is an argument for God, whereas for others it suggests that God is a comfort people cling to out of desperation.

The Mad Hatter

Dades wrote: »

* Take the "No atheists in foxholes" argument. For many theists this is an argument for God, whereas for others it suggests that God is a comfort people cling to out of desperation.

"'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes." -James Morrow

Readyhed

I am not sure whether there is a supreme creator or not but I am sure that the "God" invented by established religions does not exist.

It seems possible to me that we could be the result of a scientific experiment by a superior intelligence in the same way that we might
create synthetic DNA in a test tube but the idea that he/she/it "loves" us
or expects us to "worship" him/her/it is to me thoroughly absurd.

This "suck up to me or I'll will toss you in hell" concept is a sick mentality dreamt up by human minds - not a superior intellect.

In that sense it is pretty irrelevant to me whether such a "God" exists or not.