Making peace with yourself

harrythehat

I don't practice any religion but I'm not sure if I would call myself atheist. Anyway, I have a question.

Whether it's karma or confession, most religions have a system for dealing with wrongs you have done in your life.

I'm just wondering, if you're atheist and you f*** up big time and feel bad about it, what can you do to rebalance your world so you don't feel as guilty. Obviously you can try to right the wrong, but I'm talking beyond that.

Beruthiel

harrythehat wrote: »

I'm just wondering, if you're atheist and you f*** up big time and feel bad about it, what can you do to rebalance your world so you don't feel as guilty. Obviously you can try to right the wrong, but I'm talking beyond that.

Learn from it.
Acknowledge to yourself that you fuked up and resolve not to do it again.

Penn

harrythehat wrote: »

I don't practice any religion but I'm not sure if I would call myself atheist. Anyway, I have a question.

Whether it's karma or confession, most religions have a system for dealing with wrongs you have done in your life.

I'm just wondering, if you're atheist and you f*** up big time and feel bad about it, what can you do to rebalance your world so you don't feel as guilty. Obviously you can try to right the wrong, but I'm talking beyond that.

As Beruthiel said, learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. If you still felt bad about what you did, there are plenty of good things you can do which you wouldn't have normally done. In a way, that is a bit like the concept of karma (well, it's probably exactly like karma), but you're not doing it because you might be punished if you don't, you're doing it just because you feel it's the right thing to do.

magicbastarder

the thread title sounds like a euphemism to me.

Zombrex

harrythehat wrote: »

I don't practice any religion but I'm not sure if I would call myself atheist. Anyway, I have a question.

Whether it's karma or confession, most religions have a system for dealing with wrongs you have done in your life.

I'm just wondering, if you're atheist and you f*** up big time and feel bad about it, what can you do to rebalance your world so you don't feel as guilty. Obviously you can try to right the wrong, but I'm talking beyond that.

Apologize to the person you hurt and attempt to make up for any damage done. What would be "beyond" that.

One of the most sickening things about a lot of religions, particularly Christianity, is this idea that you can absolve yourself for responsibility for what you have done by apologizing to the made up man in your head, rather than to the actual people you have hurt.

If I see another thug with "Only God can judge me" tattooed on his arm I might just cry.

the_syco

Maybe a selfless act of kindness towards the person, but without letting them know you did it? This way you do a good deed to them, but you don't feel guilty when they thank you?

kylith

Apologise to the person that I've hurt. I do feel guilty about things, but saying sorry to an invisible man in the sky isn't going to make things better. If you've done something that makes you feel guilty then the person you should talk to is the one affected by your actions.

antiskeptic

Zombrex wrote: »

Apologize to the person you hurt and attempt to make up for any damage done. What would be "beyond" that.

If considering it an accounting sheet: you've done wrong and so now there is an imbalance on the accounting sheet. You feel a pressure to rebalance it. Restoring things to the way they were before is an obvious example of rebalancing the debit.

Now suppose the person is unable to forgive (the offence was such so as to exceed their capacity to forgive). The imbalance is still there so.

What next. I can understand "well I tried.." and "I'll have to forgive myself" but that doesn't actually deal with the imbalance. It kind of says: well I'll just bury the accounting sheet out of sight.

One of the most sickening things about a lot of religions, particularly Christianity, is this idea that you can absolve yourself for responsibility for what you have done by apologizing to the made up man in your head, rather than to the actual people you have hurt.

I wasn't aware that a Christian was absolved of his duty to others by his receiving forgiveness from God for the offence against God.

If I see another thug with "Only God can judge me" tattooed on his arm I might just cry.

Perhaps the thug is acknowledging the one judge who can actually ensure a conviction is delivered. It's subtle..

iBumblebeetuna

antiskeptic wrote: »

If considering it an accounting sheet: you've done wrong and so now there is an imbalance on the accounting sheet. You feel a pressure to rebalance it. Restoring things to the way they were before is an obvious example of rebalancing the debit.

Now suppose the person is unable to forgive (the offence was such so as to exceed their capacity to forgive). The imbalance is still there so.

What next. I can understand "well I tried.." and "I'll have to forgive myself" but that doesn't actually deal with the imbalance. It kind of says: well I'll just bury the accounting sheet out of sight.

That's not the way I personnally would see it. As far as I am concerned there is no cosmic balancing to be done. The imbalance is in your head and in the wronged party's head.
If I am confident that I have done enough to try and reconcile a wrong and put it right, that is enough for me. The "imbalance" is balanced as far as I am concerned. If the person I hurt or harmed can't get past it and forgive me, then that is their issue to deal with. They will be the one that remains unbalanced, not me.

antiskeptic

iBumblebeetuna wrote: »

If the person I hurt or harmed can't get past it and forgive me, then that is their issue to deal with. They will be the one that remains unbalanced, not me.

So let's say you've raped and murdered someones daughter. And that they can't forgive you because your actions sent them over the edge of an abyss they simply are unable to climb back up from. You smashed them up and all the kings horses...

It's their problem? Their issue?

Really?

irishh_bob

iBumblebeetuna wrote: »

That's not the way I personnally would see it. As far as I am concerned there is no cosmic balancing to be done. The imbalance is in your head and in the wronged party's head.
If I am confident that I have done enough to try and reconcile a wrong and put it right, that is enough for me. The "imbalance" is balanced as far as I am concerned. If the person I hurt or harmed can't get past it and forgive me, then that is their issue to deal with. They will be the one that remains unbalanced, not me.

that sounds almost too convenient , blaming the other person for not being fine and dandy due to your apology , btw , im not suggesting you done anything that was so great , it didnt deserve an appology , just using your example in a broader sense

irishh_bob

antiskeptic wrote: »

So let's say you've raped and murdered someones daughter. And that they can't forgive you because your actions sent them over the edge of an abyss they simply are unable to climb back up from. You smashed them up and all the kings horses...

It's their problem? Their issue?

Really?

some people can rationalise anything

iBumblebeetuna

antiskeptic wrote: »

So let's say you've raped and murdered someones daughter. And that they can't forgive you because your actions sent them over the edge of an abyss they simply are unable to climb back up from. You smashed them up and all the kings horses...

It's their problem? Their issue?

Really?

I have no idea how the mind of a rapist or murderer works. I could never fathom doing either, but for the sake of it I will assume I have done this and am sorry for doing it. Lets say that, as in your scenario, there is nothing I can do to make it up to the family I have just crushed, despite my efforts. In that case what can I do? I am assuming I have done everything in my power to help ease the pain of these people... As far as I am concerned, that is still their problem, not mine.

Maybe I could go and help other victims families since the one that I offended won't accept my peace offering, I don't know. That is kind of irrelevant anyway. But as long as I make the effort to make up for my wrong doing and square it in my own head, that is all that can be done. I don't believe in Karma, and I don't believe there is cosmic universal balancing going on.

Gregor Samsa

antiskeptic wrote: »

If considering it an accounting sheet: you've done wrong and so now there is an imbalance on the accounting sheet. You feel a pressure to rebalance it. Restoring things to the way they were before is an obvious example of rebalancing the debit.

Now suppose the person is unable to forgive (the offence was such so as to exceed their capacity to forgive). The imbalance is still there so.

What next. I can understand "well I tried.." and "I'll have to forgive myself" but that doesn't actually deal with the imbalance. It kind of says: well I'll just bury the accounting sheet out of sight.

As the saying goes, "Balance sheets don't."

It's the same with life, everything doesn't necessarily balance out, no matter how much we'd like it to.

iBumblebeetuna

irishh_bob wrote: »

that sounds almost too convenient , blaming the other person for not being fine and dandy due to your apology , btw , im not suggesting you done anything that was so great , it didnt deserve an appology , just using your example in a broader sense

I understand that Bob. And as far as I know, I haven't done anything hugely wrong that would adversely affect the life of another person. But if I had and I tried to make it up to them, make a huge gesture, maybe spend years trying to 'undo' it... but it's all in vein. Then what else is there for me to do but to get on with my own life and forgive myself, as long as I am confident that I have made a sufficient effort to make amends.

Of course, different people will have different ideas about what constitutes enough, but that is not something I can comment on.

Knasher

antiskeptic wrote: »

So let's say you've raped and murdered someones daughter. And that they can't forgive you because your actions sent them over the edge of an abyss they simply are unable to climb back up from. You smashed them up and all the kings horses...

It's their problem? Their issue?

Really?

antiskeptic wrote: »

I wasn't aware that a Christian was absolved of his duty to others by his receiving forgiveness from God for the offence against God.

If gods forgiveness doesn't absolve you from your duty to others (nor should it) then the problem you pose would apply equally to both of us. Not that I think I could ever assuage my conscience regardless of any actions I take in that hypothetical situation.

antiskeptic

irishh_bob wrote: »

some people can rationalise anything

I've heard that said of me on this forum a number of times.

Knasher

Zombrex wrote: »

If I see another thug with "Only God can judge me" tattooed on his arm I might just cry.

I guess he wasn't aware of gods views on tattoos from deuteronomy.

Zombrex

antiskeptic wrote: »

If considering it an accounting sheet: you've done wrong and so now there is an imbalance on the accounting sheet. You feel a pressure to rebalance it. Restoring things to the way they were before is an obvious example of rebalancing the debit.

Now suppose the person is unable to forgive (the offence was such so as to exceed their capacity to forgive). The imbalance is still there so.

What next. I can understand "well I tried.." and "I'll have to forgive myself" but that doesn't actually deal with the imbalance. It kind of says: well I'll just bury the accounting sheet out of sight.

Well a start would be not thinking of it in terms of an accounting sheet.

It is not an imbalance that exists, it is a person in a state of pain who has been hurt by what you did and continues to be hurt by what you did.

If nothing you can do can help that person out of this state of being in pain then there is nothing you can do.

Asking "What next" is utterly missing the point, it is thinking of it in terms of how do I make myself feel better about what I did, not asking how can I help the person I hurt feel better.

antiskeptic wrote: »

I wasn't aware that a Christian was absolved of his duty to others by his receiving forgiveness from God for the offence against God.

That is because you are unaware how utterly manipulative and self serving Christianity is.

Christianity frames most if not all offenses against other people as offenses against God, which conveniently allows Christians to seek forgiveness for these "sins" from God rather than from the people that they actually hurt.

So lying, stealing, murder, rape etc are all "sins", offenses against God that can be forgiven by God.

This is in fact a very common cult trick, one Jesus clearly understood and used to his advantage.

fitz0

antiskeptic wrote: »

So let's say you've raped and murdered someones daughter. And that they can't forgive you because your actions sent them over the edge of an abyss they simply are unable to climb back up from. You smashed them up and all the kings horses...

It's their problem? Their issue?

Really?

IMO murdering someone outside of self-defence/protecting someone else is something I could never forgive myself for, and even in those exemptions I'd imagine it would be very hard to cope with. Ending a life is not something you can just mark off one column and balance up in another, its degrading to the value of a life to pose it as a question of checks and balances. Likewise it devalues a life to just say sorry to the voice in your head God and think you are absolved of your sin.

It would just be something you would have to live with. Try as you might to make up for it, even with forgiveness you would have to live with it anyway. Thankfully I haven't and hopefully will never have to deal with something like that.

For smaller transgressions, I've always dealt with them by accepting and acknowledging that I've done wrong and apologising to whoever I wronged. In the two major cases where I've done wrong to people in my life I've apologised for one and am getting past it and for the second I'm in the process of doing so. I no longer feel the nagging guilt in either case but remember and have learned from both cases. I can only try to never repeat such stupid mistakes.

Somehow I doubt your god would have salvaged a friendship and ended a family feud through my grovelling apologies to him/her/it/them.

irishh_bob

iBumblebeetuna wrote: »

I understand that Bob. And as far as I know, I haven't done anything hugely wrong that would adversely affect the life of another person. But if I had and I tried to make it up to them, make a huge gesture, maybe spend years trying to 'undo' it... but it's all in vein. Then what else is there for me to do but to get on with my own life and forgive myself, as long as I am confident that I have made a sufficient effort to make amends.

Of course, different people will have different ideas about what constitutes enough, but that is not something I can comment on.

if someone murdered a member of my family , the only thing they could do that would put things right between them and me would be for them to commit suicide , twenty years in jail wouldnt mean jack

fitz0

irishh_bob wrote: »

if someone murdered a member of my family , the only thing they could do that would put things right between them and me would be for them to commit suicide , twenty years in jail wouldnt mean jack

An eye for an eye. Very biblical.

iBumblebeetuna

irishh_bob wrote: »

if someone murdered a member of my family , the only thing they could do that would put things right between them and me would be for them to commit suicide , twenty years in jail wouldnt mean jack

I am sure I would feel the same way.

irishh_bob

fitz0 wrote: »

irishh_bob wrote: »

if someone murdered a member of my family , the only thing they could do that would put things right between them and me would be for them to commit suicide , twenty years in jail wouldnt mean jack

An eye for an eye. Very biblical.

An eye for an eye only applies in the case of murder

MagicMarker

irishh_bob wrote: »

if someone murdered a member of my family , the only thing they could do that would put things right between them and me would be for them to commit suicide , twenty years in jail wouldnt mean jack

I'd feel the opposite. I'd rather they spend the rest of their life staring at the wall in an 8x6 cell.

irishh_bob

MagicMarker wrote: »

irishh_bob wrote: »

if someone murdered a member of my family , the only thing they could do that would put things right between them and me would be for them to commit suicide , twenty years in jail wouldnt mean jack

I'd feel the opposite. I'd rather they spend the rest of their life staring at the wall in an 8x6 cell.

Oh I'd want that 1st

harrythehat

Thanks for your replies.

Let me elaborate a little. Say there is no big victim in your crime. None that you can put a face or name to anyway.

For example, say you lied on your cv or faked a reference and consequently got a job ahead of people who were much more qualified/potentially needed the job a lot more.

You don't know who this person is, but you feel bad.

I don't know, this is hypothetical. I'm just trying to draw back from the murder/rape scenario because I would hope that's a situation none of us finds ourselves in.

CerebralCortex

Beruthiel wrote: »

Learn from it.
Acknowledge to yourself that you fuked up and resolve not to do it again.

Perfect.

irishh_bob

harrythehat wrote: »

Thanks for your replies.

Let me elaborate a little. Say there is no big victim in your crime. None that you can put a face or name to anyway.

For example, say you lied on your cv or faked a reference and consequently got a job ahead of people who were much more qualified/potentially needed the job a lot more.

You don't know who this person is, but you feel bad.

I don't know, this is hypothetical. I'm just trying to draw back from the murder/rape scenario because I would hope that's a situation none of us finds ourselves in.

thats small fry

Sarky

So? Does every question on morality have to have an extreme like murder/rape? Is it just too hard to apply a vengeance fantasy to someone who lied on their CV?

harrythehat

Okay, here's another example.

Once I found a wallet on a train with 200e in cash.

The person was obviously well off, lots of credit cards, brown thomas receipts. I took the cash and handed the wallet in. I justified it to myself by saying i had saved the person the hassle of cancelling cards etc which she might have had to do if someone else took the entire thing.

Last year I had 150e stolen from my wallet.

Is that the balance redressed?

I have no way of righting the wrong with this woman,but I give 20e a month to oxfam - does that right the balance?

MagicMarker

There is no balance, shít just happens.

Sarky

harrythehat wrote: »

Okay, here's another example.

Once I found a wallet on a train with 200e in cash.

The person was obviously well off, lots of credit cards, brown thomas receipts. I took the cash and handed the wallet in. I justified it to myself by saying i had saved the person the hassle of cancelling cards etc which she might have had to do if someone else took the entire thing.

Last year I had 150e stolen from my wallet.

Is that the balance redressed?

I have no way of righting the wrong with this woman,but I give 20e a month to oxfam - does that right the balance?

None of this results in the person from whom you stole €200 getting their money back, does it? I'd be inclined to think multiple credit cards is a sign of living beyond your means, myself, so that money probably meant a lot to them. Unless it was that very same person who took your €150 (and that's not very likely at all, obviously), you haven't made amends with that person. Two wrongs occurred. Nothing is balanced. Not that there's anything to balance except your conscience. You're obviously feeling guilty about it, and that's fine. It shows you're uncomfortable with the idea of theft. Although it didn't stop you that time.

Unless you can find that person and give them €200 (and perhaps some interest and a massive apology), you're not going to make amends. You'll have to accept that, and live with the consequences of your actions. Instead, ask yourself the following:

Are you donating to Oxfam out of guilt or out of a genuine desire to be charitable?

Has the experience changed your attitude to taking money from the wallets of people you don't know?

Have you resolved not to steal like that again? Or are you now happy to steal money from any wallet you find?

Do you think the whole thing has made you a better person? Are you satisfied with how the experience has changed you?

Things like prayer and confession often give people an excuse to weasel out of taking responsibility for their more unpleasant actions. God inspires their good works, Satan inspires their bad ones, it's never their fault really. Take responsibility for your actions, warts and all. If you've done things you regret, take steps to change your behaviour so you'll avoid doing those things again. Learn from your actions.

Or you can have a bit of a pray or rub some healing crystals and wait for the universe to say "Hang on a minute now..."

But you'll be waiting a long time.

strobe

Beruthiel wrote: »

Learn from it.
Acknowledge to yourself that you fuked up and resolve not to do it again.

MagicMarker wrote: »

There is no balance, shít just happens.

That's about the long and short of it Harry.

recedite

harrythehat wrote: »

I don't practice any religion but I'm not sure if I would call myself atheist. Anyway, I have a question.

Whether it's karma or confession, most religions have a system for dealing with wrongs you have done in your life.

Saying Hail Mary repeatedly is not "dealing with" a wrong in any meaningful way.

I'm just wondering, if you're atheist and you f*** up big time and feel bad about it, what can you do to rebalance your world so you don't feel as guilty. Obviously you can try to right the wrong, but I'm talking beyond that.

What is there to do, beyond that?
(Apart from appeasing the all-knowing sky-fairy so He won't roast your ass in hell for all eternity)