gay/lesbian eternal students!

apache

i have a question i would like answering.
eternal students - what is up with that?
i went to college myself and got a degree but i don't and will never understand eternal students.
gays and lesbians seem to be notorious for this!

what happens after your degree? do you strive for more? do you cocoon yourself in college education? is it safe? after all your peers are in the same boat. is it like an intellectual ghetto? safe and secure?

i started work at 14 and put myself through school and college.
they could possibly be more intelligent than me with their pie charts and graphs to prove their points but they have little life experience which in my book is paramount to get by in this world. statistics and surveys mean nothing to me.


my goals in life are education but after that when the dust settles and you realise life is not a playground it is about buying a property and having a few assets which i have achieved not because i am brilliant but because i strive to be independant and work long hours to achieve my goals.

not intending to ruffle any feathers here as it seems a very studenty quota here.

please discuss in a refined manner.
thanks!

edit - oh and before any smartass pulls me up on it i do not use caps. yes it is ironic but hey thats me.

L.Jenkins

I can't describe the whole eternal student side, which seems to draw me back to college. Maybe I'm someone who can't settle on one thing. I have a BEng in Computer and Software Engineering, but I want to go back for a BA in Counselling and Psychotherapy.

I suppose my priorities have changed alot in the last year and with nothing holding me down (i.e. Kids, a wifey, mortgage etc), there's nothing really stopping me going back to pursue a new career option.

baby and crumble

Well, I guess I am one of those "eternal students" as you put it. I'm 29, have a BA, H.Dip, Masters in Social Work and am about a year away from completing my PhD. I've been in some form of formal education since I was 4, apart from one year. I certainly don't think I'm smarter than anyone else. I'm just doing what I love, which is learning, and what's wrong with that? The job I want requires a doctorate, and in the end my earning potential will be significantly higher than a lot of people, if you want to go down that road.

I also held down a part-time job which I used to put myself through all of my education so far- my parents helped me with 1st year of college, but that's it.

I have plenty of life experience, I have worked in places very few other people want to. I put in 12 hour days most days to ensure I stay on top of my education. I was put in charge of a national research project, training other researchers when I was 2 months into the PhD, the week my mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer, my best friend was also diagnosed with cancer and my partner had a breakdown during which time I was the sole earner of my household on my scholarship money. I managed to keep that project going while supporting my mother through her experimental chemo which unfortunately was unsuccessful, and my father having heart surgery. And my partners breakdown.

Don't assume that everyone who is in college has it easy, or has no life experience. That's a fallacy.

Oh, and I don't see any correlation between being gay and staying in college. Most post-graduate students I know are straight.

Aishae

i know a fair few eternal students that are straight as an arrow. and some of them seem to have no real interest in moving past education.

but - for some areas of work you need a lot of education under your belt. take medicine. you spend half your life getting the right phd's etc.
the main thing is they're working towards something.

there ARE the ones that aren't working towards anything past getting degree after degree.

there are also people that always keep up some form of education - whilst working or taking frequent breaks to do it.

its better that the ones working towards something continue to do that. we need doctors etc. i ewouldnt want a semi skilled doctor fiddling around in my skull :eek:

i know what kind of student you're referring to. they baffle me as well

apache

thanks for the replys.
i don't really use the internet much in the past year so i guess i asked here because it was easier for me to do so. this is the only place really i tend to check out when i have the time. i have stepped away from the computer

so yes essentially you're right - it is a cop out saying gay/lesbians are notorious for it when i know myself its not really accurate. but in some instances it is - especially lesbians! fooking hell - some lesbian analogy!

but i am very interested in all your feedback.

in the last three years all new recruits in my job have to do an intensive college course as part of their probation. it is essentially a joke!

i am openminded (i have my own views and will always have :P) but i see the divide become wider and wider as new people join the job. different people are coming from totally different viewpoints and all i can envisage is chaos. it is controlled chaos at the moment but the lid is gonna pop very soon as more people retire and new "college enlightned" people come on board.

apart from that i do see a greater number of eternal students well into their late 30s/early 40s still living at home with their parents. some of them are gay/some of them are straight. i just despair at it and i actually feel sorry for their elderly parents.

if this is not gay enough and a mod feels it should not be here then that is grand.

Meesared

I dont see anything wrong with wanting to improve your education/yourself

Cavehill Red

I think you have a chip on your shoulder about education, OP. That's how it comes across anyway. You've depicted continuing education so far as problematic for your job, and something that you personally dismiss.

A wise person once said to me, take a look around at the amount of people who are dead at 30 and not buried till 70. Plenty of them. I think I'd rather be one of those who maintained an open mind and kept learning, than not.

Oh, and who says life's about buying a property and accumulating assets anyway? The Germans seem to get along fine without buying property, and we in this country seem to have done enormous damage by getting carried away with owning property. Gandhi didn't own a single asset beyond his robes, but I'd still suggest that his life was a lot closer to 'what life's about' than yours or mine, OP.

Beruthiel

That's a rather large sweeping statement apache.
I know people, who are not gay, and have/were in college right into their late twenties.
Either way, what difference does it make?

i started work at 14 and put myself through school and college.
they could possibly be more intelligent than me with their pie charts and graphs to prove their points but they have little life experience which in my book is paramount to get by in this world. statistics and surveys mean nothing to me.

You sound bitter. There's no need to be.
Everyone's life path is different and makes you the person you are.

floggg

As somebody who worked all their lives (family business so I was out working for peanuts long before 14), is out of college a few years, in gainful employment I can definitely saying buying a property and accumulating assets is not what life is about.

It amazes the crash of the Celtic Tiger hasn't killed this kind of thinking yet!

Countess Markievicz

OP, I have to say I don't know any students in their late thirties living with their parents, gay or straight.

apache

i was merely asking a question. thinking aloud if you like. so i'm bitter and have a chip on my shoulder and am not living life. lol ok so.

wonderfulname

apache wrote: »

what happens after your degree? do you strive for more? do you cocoon yourself in college education? is it safe? after all your peers are in the same boat. is it like an intellectual ghetto? safe and secure?

Some people continue on in college because they enjoy learning, and enjoy the subject, some get offered paid postgraduates above what they would earn in another environment, and are effectively working, just in a manner that will hugely benefit their future careers, some people require post graduate studies in order to work in their chosen field, and pretty much all of them are at least in part just really good at their field of study. I don't know of anybody intentionally prolonging their time in education for the sake of it, and as an aside, in the real world every post grad I know is straight.

apache wrote: »

they could possibly be more intelligent than me with their pie charts and graphs to prove their points but they have little life experience which in my book is paramount to get by in this world. statistics and surveys mean nothing to me.

Education is not a measure of intelligence, merely a guarantee of a certain level of knowledge in a specific area. I don't understand your thing against people basing opinions and positions on verifiable fact, then again as you have pointed out I'm a lover of reference, that's not my education (in fact, right now, it's at odds with it) it's just my mindset.

apache wrote: »

life is not a playground it is about buying a property and having a few assets which i have achieved not because i am brilliant but because i strive to be independant and work long hours to achieve my goals.

Education is not a playground, anyone who treats it as such is wasting it. Life, to me, is not about assets, I'd rent everything for the rest of my life and it would suit me just fine, for me it's about being contented, I unfortunately have enough "life experience" at my young age to feel nothing else is remotely important beside that. Just as we disagree on that, others will tell you that life is about furthering your understanding of the world, even humanities understanding of the world, others will say it's about devotion, and then there's the nihilists...

On the topic of life experience, it isn't about how long you've been around, or how many days of hard labour you have under your belt, it's exactly what it says on the tin - what you have experienced in your life, I don't think anybodies life experience is particularly greater than anyone else's, perhaps more applicable to certain situations but that's it, it's not something I've ever understood people lording over others.

floggg

Well no offense but your post came across very harsh and critical, and you gave off the impression you had already formed a negative view of eternal students as you call them. you seemed to be putting it up to people to justify themselves rather than simply inviting discussion.

Hence the responses.

Sir Ophiuchus

apache wrote: »

what happens after your degree? do you strive for more? do you cocoon yourself in college education? is it safe? after all your peers are in the same boat. is it like an intellectual ghetto? safe and secure?

Okay, I'm responding to this not primarily as a gay man, or as a scholar of queer theory, but as someone who's dedicated himself to postgraduate study.

As other people above have hinted, I find your post pretty offensive, for a couple of reasons. Why do you presume my peers are "in the same boat" as myself? Very few people, relatively, go on to postgraduate study. My peer group - the people who graduated the same year as myself - are all getting jobs, travelling, going on internships, and making money.

I'm guessing what you meant is that when you're doing postgrad study, you're around a lot of others doing the same thing. That's true, but everyone there has made sacrifices to be there.

life is not a playground it is about buying a property and having a few assets which i have achieved not because i am brilliant but because i strive to be independant and work long hours to achieve my goals.

Playground? Not independent? I spent two years working my ass off to win a scholarship that would support me as a postgraduate, without which there was no way I'd have been able to do it. In fact, I didn't even get it the first time. So I did the exams *again* the following year and I got it. It barely supports me. I work delivering flyers part-time to fund myself as well. Meanwhile peers are working jobs for 30k a year, or working science postgrads that actually *pay* them, or getting internships to start careers they desperately want. Did I do it all by myself? No. I had great support from my family, and I'm massively grateful for that, but ultimately it was on me to make it happen. And I live on my own, by the way, thanks to that aforementioned scholarship.

Look, I do see where you're coming from. You think people stay in postgrad study cause they don't want to deal with the "real world". Well, what you think the real world is, anyway. Believe me, being a postgrad is damn hard as well. There are huge expectations, fairly unforgiving deadlines, the politics can be awful if you're unlucky, and it's serious and demanding work, even if it's more flexible than some other jobs.

Why am I doing a PhD? Because I have a passion for my research. A real goddamned passion. This is a field I've thought about and obsessed about since my second year of college. When on holidays I've gone out of my way to buy books for this research that weren't available in Ireland, with my own money. I've contacted professors in other countries to discuss it. I spent a year writing my proposal for it and getting it accepted. Not to mention the two years working on the scholarship. I've made sacrifices. I'm entering an academic job market that's incredibly precarious. I'm probably never going to earn as much as people who go into a regular job market, or who chose to study something more marketable. I'm living on not very much money for at least the next three years. I'm doing this research because it's a part of who I am. A really big part.

So, no, I'm not staying in college because it's easy. Because it wasn't. And it's not a default state either. Like everything worthwhile, it took effort and sacrifice. From what you've posted, I'm sure you know that. So please recognise it in the people you term "eternal students" as well. I, at least, know what I'm doing here, know what decisions I've made, and I'm willing to pay the price for them. You should respect that. And you should respect me, and students like me.

apache

i understand all that. thanks for the reply. also others posts have been a bit offensive towards me but hey thats life.

and if people cared to look i did correct myself earlier. if i am in the wrong i'm the first to hold up my hands. but no that was overlooked in the "jumping on the bandwagon" posts and getting offended.

eternal students do grate on me. full of opinions sitting on their pedestal!

remember all those "assets" i had in the celtic tiger are quite null and void now! why are students out every weekend? where are they getting the money from?

is it because they have no responsibilities with no huge mortgage?

these are questions i ask because i am genuinely interested.

floggg

apache wrote: »

eternal students do grate on me. full of opinions sitting on their pedestal!

.

One wonders how anybody might have taken you up the wrong way....

apache

floggg wrote: »

One wonders how anybody might have taken you up the wrong way....

thanks for picking that out of my post. respect is a 2 way street. one does indeed wonder. very selective :rolleyes:

rainbow kirby

apache wrote: »

eternal students do grate on me. full of opinions sitting on their pedestal!

I don't see anyone here "sitting on their pedestal". Any of the postgraduate students who have posted in this thread have given perfectly valid and reasonable reasons for continuing their studies. I myself have a BSc and MSc in computer science - it helped to get me a job very quickly after graduation, and probably meant I started on a slightly higher salary, if that's the road you want to go down. I was offered a PhD spot after my masters (again in CS, but with a heavy statistical element, and funded), but turned it down because I wanted to get out of academia at that stage and really didn't want to commit to another 4+ years of it.

apache wrote: »

remember all those "assets" i had in the celtic tiger are quite null and void now! why are students out every weekend? where are they getting the money from?

is it because they have no responsibilities with no huge mortgage?

We all make our own choices. For some that's to head straight to the working world. For others, that's choosing to follow their academic passions. All valid choices in life, even if they would not be yours.

baby and crumble

apache wrote: »

i understand all that. thanks for the reply. also others posts have been a bit offensive towards me but hey thats life.

....

eternal students do grate on me. full of opinions sitting on their pedestal!

remember all those "assets" i had in the celtic tiger are quite null and void now! why are students out every weekend? where are they getting the money from?

is it because they have no responsibilities with no huge mortgage?

these are questions i ask because i am genuinely interested.

TBH Apache, your original question was a bit offensive towards me, and people like me.

I personally find that 'eternal students' are less likely to be arrogant and 'full of opinions' than the average undergrad with a year or two under their belt at 20.

Not all students are out every weekend. I'm not. I can't afford to. People I see out every weekend getting bladdered are every day joe soaps, just relaxing and letting off steam. Not my cup of tea, but still. And even if they were students, why should they not enjoy life the way they want to when they are unencumbered by mortgages, kids, etc?

I know the kind of student you are thinking of, the student who lives at home, has their washing, dinner, everything done for them with an allowance from Mum & Dad and still they moan about having no money. Yes, I believe students like that need a dose of reality, of paying their own bills but sure that will come. I know no student who does lots of courses which are each a progression from the last (ie going to BA->MA-> PHD) who Mum & Dad bankroll for it all. Pretty much all of us are working our arses off, paying our own way through our education to perhaps get a better life for ourselves and our family down the line.

Tarring folks who are training for a career in academics, which requires at the very least 2 qualifications (Undergrad & PhD) which takes an average of 8 years with the same brush as students doing degree after degree because they can't bear he real world is pretty offensive and ill informed.

apache

i get it. i have a degree!
if you find my post offensive as you all obviously do then thats your problem not mine.

yes b+c thats the type of eternal student i am talking about - living off mammy and daddys apron strings. but when they are in their late 20s early 30s its a joke! i've seen it in their 40's ffs!
and then theres those who never go to college and have a great time. and still get the free hand out. they live in a rented apartment paid by mammy and daddy and miss college due to having a good time on their pocket money.

disclaimer - i have no problem with those who put themselves through college. i done it myself. its the others i have a problem with. my parents could not afford to do so and i would die before i would ask them.

if you don't see where i'm coming from well then its all about perception and judging my post.

what a surprise! gays please!

floggg

Yes, it's everybody else's fault if they got offended by generalisations, stereotypes and condescension.

apache

floggg wrote: »

Yes, it's everybody else's fault if they got offended by generalisations, stereotypes and condescension.

yeah and maybe you just need to chill!

stephen_n

The only bearing I could see sexuality having on studying or not studying would be children or maybe lack of them and even that's a big stretch. What I would class as eternal students are academics, people who get to college and don't leave and there really aren't a lot of them. People who pursue postgrads are usually more motivated towards a specific goal rather than just a love of academia. I'm in the last year of my degree which has been a huge financial and physical drain as I'm doing it part time and working two jobs to fund it. All I can think of at the moment is it's nearly over and I really can't wait for that to be done. However I already know I will need to do a masters at some point in the future as the regulations being proposed for psychotherapists will require that level of education. So not everyone remains in education because they want to be students, for many it's a means to an end.

jaffacakesyum

Honestly, I find it bizaare that people have the time to care about sh1t like this. Honestly, do you really care? People are different. If everyone did the same thing the world would be incredibly boring. Some people finish secondary school and go straight to work. Some people do an undergrad and that's enough for them. Some people enjoy academia and need further education for their ideal job. What the hell is wrong with that?

wonderfulname

apache wrote: »

yeah and maybe you just need to chill!

Isn't it just horrible when peoples opinions differ to yours?

apache

wonderfulname wrote: »

Isn't it just horrible when peoples opinions differ to yours?

not at all. i welcome the different views. maybe take a leaf out out of my book?
just because i don't agree with them does not make them "horrible"
i can have a healthy debate without lowering myself to those levels.
that is your mindset. horrible? not at all!

you said it not me. jesus i rest my case!

i gotta do a 13 hour shift tomorrow which will more than likely turn into a 24hr shift. do you understand? no i don't think so!
carry on .........................

oh seriously i laugh at myself! you guys are unbelievable!

Annasopra

could everyone calm down a bit. You might disagree with apache but there's need to have a go at her.

wonderfulname

apache wrote: »

not at all. i welcome the different views. maybe take a leaf out out of my book?

Really? Snap, make assumptions and generalisations in order to push a point, shift around what that point actually is in order to void any previous reasoning against it? No thanks.

apache wrote: »

just because i don't agree with them does not make them "horrible"
i can have a healthy debate without lowering myself to those levels.
that is your mindset. horrible? not at all!

Maybe you missed the tone... See I don't believe you are engaging in "healthy debate", I'm pretty sure you're just venting and projecting your own, personal problems on to a group you know little enough about not to feel bad in doing so. Kind of like those who give out about "scroungers on the dole", on many occasions you have given out about this kind of aloof generalisation here, why do you think it's particularly different to make negative generalisations about anyone who's studied more than 3-4 years at higher level?

apache wrote: »

i gotta do a 13 hour shift tomorrow which will more than likely turn into a 24hr shift. do you understand? no i don't think so!
carry on .........................

This kind of proves my point, you're projecting your own issues, I have two responses to this;

1) With relevance to this thread, you seriously underestimate the workload on "eternal students" if you think they don't understand what it is to work for considerably extended periods of time, I'm also pretty sure you overestimate their income, and the percentage of them hanging off mummy's (or the governments) purse strings.

2) You have to stop making silly assumptions that nobody understands your situation, you're never the only one, you're certainly never the worst off (those go for anybody), and you have absolutely no idea what work I or anybody else posting here has done, of our economic status, certainly no reason to believe we're all particularly up in the world. I was going to answer your question, in fact I had it typed, but I don't feel it lends anything to my point or that you should require it in order to recognise that attributing qualities and experiences to people you have never met is a tad on the foolish side.

apache

those are all your projections - not mine.

Sir Ophiuchus

apache wrote: »

those are all your projections - not mine.

Apache, I made a serious effort to answer your post and to give my own opinion. You nodded to it, brushed it off, and continued on. I don't feel you've made an effort to engage with what anyone here's been saying. All you've done is snap at people, rephrase what you've already said, and make smart passive-aggressive comments. I don't feel this thread is useful or helpful to anyone anymore, and I won't be posting in it further.

Conor30

How anyone thinks being an eternal student is a 'gay' thing is beyond me! Anyway.....
if some people want to do themselves out of earning money from a job and spending many many years broke as a student, that's their prerogative. If some people want to study for years and pursue their interests, then good for them. And of others just want to stop at B.A level and get a job or if some don't want to go to college at all, then that's their right too. LOL What a pointless thread.

keepkeyyellow

I could be a bit late to this but what is an eternal student? If it's someone who's simply doing a post grad course then that would include all teachers and would really only amount to 4 years. If it's someone doing a longer course like medicine or becoming a barrister well it takes around 6 years to become one so they have no choice. If it's someone doing a PHD well I've spent some time in the PHD office in UCC and haven't come across one gay person....