Hosea and Attributes of God

Morbert

Hosea 8:

"Set the trumpet to thy mouth. He shall come as an eagle against the house of the LORD, because they have transgressed my covenant, and trespassed against my law. Israel shall cry unto me, My God, we know thee. Israel hath cast off the thing that is good: the enemy shall pursue him. They have set up kings, but not by me:they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off."

How do scholars abstract God's omniscience in a strict, formal sense? Is there direct Biblical support, or is it derived as some necessity (E.g. "If God is perfect, how could He not know the past, present, and future?") ?

homer911

An alternative translation is "they made princes, but I did not acknowledge them"

Onesimus

This is God's sense of humour. He is really saying according to those who disobeyed him... ''as if i didnt know like'' :rolleyes::D

Onesimus

homer911 wrote: »

An alternative translation is "they made princes, but I did not acknowledge them"

DOH!!!!! homer saves the day. I'm wrong then. Yeah now when I look at it it's in old english and thats why Morbet read it the way he did.

Morbert

homer911 wrote: »

An alternative translation is "they made princes, but I did not acknowledge them"

Which translation is more accurate? Is there an academic paper/study regarding the issue?

PDN

Morbert wrote: »

Which translation is more accurate? Is there an academic paper/study regarding the issue?

The Hebrew word is yada. Ever watch Seinfeld? 'Yada yada yada' is known as a famous comic catchphrase.

It can mean 'to know' or 'to acknowledge' or even 'to have sexual intecourse with'.

Often the context gives us a clue. When the Bible says that Adam 'knew' Eve and then they had a son, it obviously refers to sexual intercourse.

Now, as to Hosea 8:4, it appears most likely that what we have is a parallelism. This is where the same idea is expressed twice in different wording - http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/23_parallel.html

So, it seems reasonable to treat this as saying "They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval." (New International Version) That would make much more sense than thinking that Hosea was inserting a denial of God's omnipotence into a verse that was talking about something totally different.

Fanny Cradock

http://bible.cc/hosea/8-4.htm

As far as I can see, the majority of translations read something like "without my consent" or "not through me".

Anyone speak Hebrew?

Strongs translates yada' as the following

) to know
a) (Qal)
1) to know
a) to know, learn to know
b) to perceive
c) to perceive and see, find out and discern
d) to discriminate, distinguish
e) to know by experience
f) to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess
g) to consider
2) to know, be acquainted with
3) to know (a person carnally)
4) to know how, be skilful in
5) to have knowledge, be wise
b) (Niphal)
1) to be made known, be or become known, be revealed
2) to make oneself known
3) to be perceived
4) to be instructed
c) (Piel) to cause to know
d) (Poal) to cause to know
e) (Pual)
1) to be known
2) known, one known, acquaintance (participle)
f) (Hiphil) to make known, declare
g) (Hophal) to be made known
h) (Hithpael) to make oneself known, reveal oneself

Morbert

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

http://bible.cc/hosea/8-4.htm

As far as I can see, the majority of translations read something like "without my consent" or "not through me".

Anyone speak Hebrew?

Strongs translates yada' as the following

) to know
a) (Qal)
1) to know
a) to know, learn to know
b) to perceive
c) to perceive and see, find out and discern
d) to discriminate, distinguish
e) to know by experience
f) to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess
g) to consider
2) to know, be acquainted with
3) to know (a person carnally)
4) to know how, be skilful in
5) to have knowledge, be wise
b) (Niphal)
1) to be made known, be or become known, be revealed
2) to make oneself known
3) to be perceived
4) to be instructed
c) (Piel) to cause to know
d) (Poal) to cause to know
e) (Pual)
1) to be known
2) known, one known, acquaintance (participle)
f) (Hiphil) to make known, declare
g) (Hophal) to be made known
h) (Hithpael) to make oneself known, reveal oneself

That is a useful link. But I have tallied the translations. 2 versions translate it as "without my consent/approval", but 14 translate it as without knowledge. The majority prefer "did not know".

Morbert

PDN wrote: »

The Hebrew word is yada. Ever watch Seinfeld? 'Yada yada yada' is known as a famous comic catchphrase.

It can mean 'to know' or 'to acknowledge' or even 'to have sexual intecourse with'.

Often the context gives us a clue. When the Bible says that Adam 'knew' Eve and then they had a son, it obviously refers to sexual intercourse.

Now, as to Hosea 8:4, it appears most likely that what we have is a parallelism. This is where the same idea is expressed twice in different wording - http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/23_parallel.html

So, it seems reasonable to treat this as saying "They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval." (New International Version) That would make much more sense than thinking that Hosea was inserting a denial of God's omnipotence into a verse that was talking about something totally different.

Ok. This makes it clearer. Thanks.

Fanny Cradock

Morbert wrote: »

That is a useful link. But I have tallied the translations. 2 versions translate it as "without my consent/approval", but 14 translate it as without knowledge. The majority prefer "did not know".

You are correct! I fired that email off just before I left work and obviously didn't pay enough attention.