US spy planes overflying the USSR?

silverharp

Why were the overflights of the U2 planes and later over the USSR not considered to be military incursions for want of a better term? were they not risky from both sides perspective? as in could a paranoid Russian gerneral not argue that they could be carrying nuclear weapons etc.?

Morlar

Good question. I have often wondered how the American public would have responded if the Soviets had been in the habit of performing provocative high altitude aerial reconnaissance over the USA.

Freddie59

Morlar wrote: »

Good question. I have often wondered how the American public would have responded if the Soviets had been in the habit of performing provocative high altitude aerial reconnaissance over the USA.

Well, look at it from the USA perspective. The Russians had satellite technology which could, potentially, spy on them. Just par for the course during the Cold war.

silverharp

Freddie59 wrote: »

Well, look at it from the USA perspective. The Russians had satellite technology which could, potentially, spy on them. Just par for the course during the Cold war.

I came across some references that the Russians were "furious" about the flights I'm just find it odd that they didnt make more if it as it happens things moved to satellites which made the flights redundant. I also still dont get why the US thought it was "legal" or appropriate thing to do.

Leonidas BL

Well one U2 got shot down didnt it??

Latchy

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Well one U2 got shot down didnt it??

The pilot was paraded around and the Russians rightly made a big thing of it .

Leonidas BL

Latchy wrote: »

The pilot was paraded around and the Russians rightly made a big thing of it .

Gary Powers wasnt it. Imagine being shot down from 80000 ft...

Latchy

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Gary Powers wasnt it. Imagine being shot down from 80000 ft...

Gary Powers it was ...must have been some hell of an expierence indeed .I think some US planes were also shot down during the Korean war to (many by Russian Mig's flown by Chinese pilots )

alphasully

His full name was Gary Mary Francis Powers

Derfil

alphasully wrote: »

His full name was Gary Mary Francis Powers

Mary..Lol:pac: Bet the Russians had a good laugh at that.

Stovepipe

Hi all,
the Russians made many attempts to shoot down American overflights, using SAMs, anti-aircraft fire and aircraft. As their fighters got better, the Americans were forced to fly higher and higher to survive. When Gary Powers was shot down, the Soviets also shot down one of their own, as they were firing SA-2s in volleys as the U-2 passed thru the airspace of each defence region. Soviet fighters were reported as stalling and flaming out at high altitude as they tried to intercept for a missile or cannon shot. The loss of the U-2 prompted the Blackbird, the MiG-25, the F-15, the TR-1, better spy satellites, better cameras, better long-range electronic eavesdropping, greater man-driven industrial espionage and so on. Incidentally, the American public knew virtually nothing about the overflights as they would have known full well that the flights were probably illegal and borderline warlike.

regards
Stovepipe

cml387

Actually,in the 1950's president Eisenhower sugested an open skies policy,allowing overflights of each other territories to reduce suspicion.

The Soviets rejected the idea,probably because their surveillance technology did not match that of the Americans.

johngalway

cml387 wrote: »

Actually,in the 1950's president Eisenhower sugested an open skies policy,allowing overflights of each other territories to reduce suspicion.

The Soviets rejected the idea,probably because their surveillance technology did not match that of the Americans.

Could a spy plane be modified to carry a nuclear payload I wonder? Seems a reckless idea if it could.

cyrusdvirus

johngalway wrote: »

Could a spy plane be modified to carry a nuclear payload I wonder? Seems a reckless idea if it could.

The SR 71 was originally supposed to be the RS-71 for Recon-Strike....

Ellis Dee

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Gary Powers wasnt it. Imagine being shot down from 80000 ft...

Soviet missiles developed faster than the Americans had expected and the CIA-operated U2 was brought down in May 1960, when it was on a flight from Pakistan to Norway.

It was a major embarrassment for the Americans who initially - and typically - lied through their teeth, but were well and truly caught out. Not knowing that the pilot Powers was still alive - he chickened out and failed to use the suicide needle his handlers had hidden inside a hollowed-out silver dollar:rolleyes: - the Americans claimed that a weather research aircraft had "accidentally strayed" into Soviet air space, and Eisenhower was left with a lot of egg on his face just before a major summit meeting. The Soviets recovered his spy camera and were even able to develop most of the pictures he had taken, in addition to which the U2 plane was relatively intact and must have been a delightful opportunity for reverse engineering. Rather like the drone the Iranians have now captured.

Powers was put on trial - quite a show - and given a 10-year sentence, but less than two years later was exchanged for the Soviet master spy Rudolf Abel.

Powers dies in a helicopter crash in California in 1977.

xflyer

Latchy wrote: »

Gary Powers it was ...must have been some hell of an expierence indeed .I think some US planes were also shot down during the Korean war to (many by Russian Mig's flown by Chinese pilots )

Actually many of the 'Chinese' Migs were piloted by Russians, the Americans knew them as 'Honchos'. It was the worst kept secret at the time. Some of them were WW2 aces finding themselves facing their previous allies.

Gary Powers U2 wasn't the only one shot down. Taiwan operated them over China and lost several this time with Chinese pilots. The Americans learn fast. Incidentally Powers was hit at 70,000 feet or so not 80,000.

silverharp

once interesting factoid was that the titanium used to make the later spy planes covertly came from Russia where most of the world supply was located.

Cardinal Richelieu

Interesting page from Wiki, I hadn't quite released that so many died in border incursions in the air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_%E2%80%93_Soviet_Union_aircraft_interception_and_shootdowns

donaghs

There was huge pressure on Eisenhower from the Military Industrial Complex (generals, hawkish politicians, industry, business, etc) to build more missiles and bombers and ramp up spending on "defense". To compensate for the assumed disparity between Soviet and US militaries.

Illegal and risky as they were, the spy planes showed the bluff behind the Soviet numbers - that a bomber and missile gap did not exist, and further spending and military escalation was not required.

who the fug

donaghs wrote: »

There was huge pressure on Eisenhower from the Military Industrial Complex (generals, hawkish politicians, industry, business, etc) to build more missiles and bombers and ramp up spending on "defense". To compensate for the assumed disparity between Soviet and US militaries.

Illegal and risky as they were, the spy planes showed the bluff behind the Soviet numbers - that a bomber and missile gap did not exist, and further spending and military escalation was not required.

The Missile gap that JFK exploited to win in 1960, despite being told the true facts.

The Military Industrial Complex, kept Ludlum in books for years

The British were at too, with the Canberra, the also they had some pilots
using the U2 , they also lost a Avro Lincoln


Neutral Sweden also lost one

Cardinal Richelieu

I came across this interview
with Han De Cai the deputy commander of one of the MiG-17 squadrons tasked with stopping penetrations of China’s airspace by aircraft that came primarily from Taiwan. U2 flights are discussed as is the various interception tactics employed by the Chinese and Russians to catch the U2.

Capt'n Midnight

cml387 wrote: »

Actually,in the 1950's president Eisenhower sugested an open skies policy,allowing overflights of each other territories to reduce suspicion.

The Soviets rejected the idea,probably because their surveillance technology did not match that of the Americans.

Not to mention that Soviets could overfly much of the US with commercial or private aircraft anyway.

Interestingly Sweden banned Russian 8x8 Trucks from entry, since they had the same wheelbase as military ones. In case the Soviets were mapping out useable routes