House being Egg'd

BobMc

Hey Guys, my house is being targeted with eggs since halloween night, last night the guys obviously watched my wife cleaning the upstairs window from halloween night, and not 30mins after did it again, plus we got an orange of a kitchen window later in the evening, we nearly managed to catch the two culprits but i'd gone the wrong way and wife was too slow (sorry missus), any way had to call the guards at this stage as its my 4yr olds bedroom window and shes upset and doesnt understand that it wont come in, its not a personal thing I'm sure as we've no interaction with these teenagers more an easy target from the main estate road, so my question is, if I manage to catch one tonight if they do it again (plan is in place) what can I legally do or not do, will the gaurds charge them with anything or can I do anything civil to make a point that I wont be a pushover, would I be better off giving him a hiding,

any advice appreciated
R

seamus

Go out with a camera with a flash, take photographs of their faces. Even better a video camera to record the entire interaction. If one of them throws an egg at you, they can be done for assault.

You can't detain them or touch them, you have no legal right to do so.

Howjoe1

Seamus idea best. Reminds me of an incident in our green with a few lads. It was day time. They denied doing anything. So I produced a camera and told them I had caught them on camera (hadn't actually used the camera) and knew where they lived and if they didnt give it up I;d go around to their house/parents. Never had any more trouble from them after that.


Good luck, it may just be a Halloween thing and they will get bored anyway.

BobMc

it is a halloween thing, and normally I'd let it slide, but is the little girls window, are you kidding me that I can't detain, ask them to sit on the kerb till the police come, surely I've some right to make them await the arrival of the police

seamus

BobMc wrote: »

are you kidding me that I can't detain, ask them to sit on the kerb till the police come, surely I've some right to make them await the arrival of the police

You can ask them, but you can't touch them. And they have no obligation to stay there. You can't really exercise a citizen's arrest for breach of the peace or vandalism (as it's such a grey offence), and even if you can, you may only detain someone where the alleged crime carries a penalty of five years or more.

Having rights is one thing. The ability to enforce those rights is something else entirely.

BobMc

tread carefully so!

odds_on

seamus wrote: »

You can ask them, but you can't touch them. And they have no obligation to stay there. You can't really exercise a citizen's arrest for breach of the peace or vandalism (as it's such a grey offence), and even if you can, you may only detain someone where the alleged crime carries a penalty of five years or more.

Having rights is one thing. The ability to enforce those rights is something else entirely.

Is there no citizen's arrest in Ireland?

halpin17

Over 18?beat the sh*t out of them

seamus

odds_on wrote: »

Is there no citizen's arrest in Ireland?

There is.

But in order to stop people from causing havoc, there's a threshold for when you can exercise a citizen's arrest. This threshold is when the crime carries a potential penalty of five years or more and you have reason to believe that the perpetrator will evade or is evading arrest.

If the "crime" doesn't fit this bill, then all you can do is ask them to wait while you fetch a Garda to carry out the arrest.
If there was no threshold on it, then you would have the local oddball carrying citizen's arrests and tackling people to the ground for spitting out their chewing gum.

al28283

Teenagers? Best way to keep them doing it is to chase them. It's good craic unfortunately.

Dylan123

s 3b(II) & s4(b) Criminal Damage Act 1991 threat to damage property & Possessing any thing with intent to damage property are arrestable offences? Couldnt he say his property was threatened and then he made a citizens arrest after it was damaged - or they had the eggs intending to damage the property?

Would the gardai charge him for false imprisonment if he called them immediately, and didnt hurt them and had an adult witness?

If you give him a hiding i think egg throwing will be the least of your worries! (jail time for Xmas)

I think the gardai can charge them depending on their age, how old are they? i think they need to be over 14 though under s52 Children Act, 2001

I am no expert just a law student so curious myself!

Kells...

Actually can't believe some people in this thread,if you hit them you will do yourself more harm than is worth for Assault etc.I say do what someone else said about the camera and say you caught them on it and your going to bring it to the parents.

BobMc

al28283 wrote: »

Teenagers? Best way to keep them doing it is to chase them. It's good craic unfortunately.

only difference being, I intend to catch em, 7minute miler here so they better be fast

Witcher

You'd want to be careful about chasing them I know someone who did and they turned around and produced a knife...be very careful. It might just be egg throwing now but if you caught one of them it could turn very serious very quick.

al28283

BobMc wrote: »

only difference being, I intend to catch em, 7minute miler here so they better be fast

You might catch one of them but I doubt catching them will achieve much. About all you can do is give them a talking to. Or ignore it for a day or two, kids get bored easily.

Milk & Honey

Just clean it up immediately. Getting involved in chasing is going to increase their thrill rate and encourage worse behaviour.

MagicSean

Since when is egging something considered criminal damage? I suppose it could be classed as defacing something but it's a stretch.

Dylan123

MagicSean wrote: »

Since when is egging something considered criminal damage? I suppose it could be classed as defacing something but it's a stretch.

Well s1 of the Criminal Damage Act 1991 defines damage, and it appears to include defacing, unless i am misunderstanding the point?

“to damage” includes—
(a) in relation to property other than data (but including a storage medium in which data are kept), to destroy, deface, dismantle or, whether temporarily or otherwise, render inoperable or unfit for use or prevent or impair the operation of.

Perhaps if he left the window open and built an elaborate piece of art from champagne flutes he could position them so that the eggs would fly through the window and damage the glass, but that would prob be an offence in itself?

MagicSean

Dylan123 wrote: »

Well s1 of the Criminal Damage Act 1991 defines damage, and it appears to include defacing, unless i am misunderstanding the point?

“to damage” includes—
(a) in relation to property other than data (but including a storage medium in which data are kept), to destroy, deface, dismantle or, whether temporarily or otherwise, render inoperable or unfit for use or prevent or impair the operation of.

Perhaps if he left the window open and built an elaborate piece of art from champagne flutes he could position them so that the eggs would fly through the window and damage the glass, but that would prob be an offence in itself?

I'm more curious as to whether it would be considered defacing. If it was then spitting on something could also be considered criminal damage.

Dylan123

MagicSean wrote: »

I'm more curious as to whether it would be considered defacing. If it was then spitting on something could also be considered criminal damage.

Well of course Wikidpedia defines defacement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defacement_(vandalism)
"In common usage, to deface something refers to marking or removing the part of an object (especially images, be they on the page, in illustrative art or as a sculpture) designed to hold the viewers' attention. Example acts of defacement could include scoring a book cover with a blade, splashing paint over a painting in a gallery, or smashing the nose of a sculpted bust. Iconoclasm led to the defacement of many religious artworks."

Therefore i guess that throwing eggs on several occassions at a family home would be classified as marking an object!
Perhaps the law offers a defenition for the word "deface," opposed to wikidpedia.

In regards to spitting, Shaun van Rensburg is the world record holder in the sport of spitting (Kudu dung) who covered a distance of 15.56 metres, set in 2006. I assume he could cause criminal damage but thats debateable.

Lon.C

Hey Bob,
To my shame i was that teenager when I was younger getting up to the same kind of sh*t around holloween. The worst thing you can do is confront them. Thats exactly the reaction they want. Ignore it and and they'll move on/ confront it and and word will spread that your a target and things will escalate.
Thats just my opinion through experience. If it gets worse call the guards, its their job to sort this out, not yours.

hideyourkids

Thought I'd share my 'nightmarish' experience.

I was sitting beside the side sliding doors, waiting for the trick or treaters, thinking there wasn't very many. There was a sudden loud explosion behind me and I dropped my phone off my lap. I thought it had exploded when I dropped it!

I ran outside, thinking that someone had ran around the side an dropped a banger.

I found it had been thrown from the road in my estate. I grabbed the video cam and just walked down the road, its funny how this gang of around 15 back off when anyone approaches them. Didn't get any good shots. Basically managed to get them retreated out of my estate and into another estate(not a word spoken or any violence)

I went to go back home, and I noticed a can ruptured outwards like a flower. Took a picture of that, it looked like they were doing some experimenting before my house.

I left the cam on a tripod in my sitting room. The next banger exploded in mid air in front of the window, so close and scary. (I have a good angle of this on tape.)

This time I waited at the top of my road. Little **** came back and tried for the 'why u filming us' route. I told them it was a public road, etc.

I recognised a few of them, but still didn't want to ring AGS on them, so I called their parents(stupid move).

More bangers went off in my garden. I resorted to ringing the guards, who told me they had earlier received a call about the same gang having a banger fest at the back of the local school. The guards in fairness were busy and never showed.

I'm all for them having their fun but when only 3 (no exaggeration) trick or treaters turned up, all in convoys of mother-armoured cars, it goes too far.

So, legal boardsies. I've practically no proof of vandalism or anything, but I do have one of them saying 'throw a banger at him'.

Where do I stand? Debris from the bangers are burnt into my path.(defacement, however miniscule) Should I have done what other posters said, ask to remain there for the guards, then make citizens? I know they don't have knives, they are middle class and everyone knows everyone. They started with water balloons, I really should have started complaints to the guards then. I am afraid next time it will be a rock through my window. I am scared of next Halloween.

castie

These kind of people would make you want to put on a mask and beat the living **** out of them.

"I cant prove you egged my house but you cant prove I beat the crap out of you"



Seems a bit crazy that there isnt an inherent right to defend your property in irish law?

Pushing to extremes here but if a guy is outside throwing bricks through your windows. Its illegal to go out and lay a hand on him? And you must let the cops deal with it? (Possibly arrive 2 hours later)

msg11

Dylan123 wrote: »

s 3b(II) & s4(b) Criminal Damage Act 1991 threat to damage property & Possessing any thing with intent to damage property are arrestable offences? Couldnt he say his property was threatened and then he made a citizens arrest after it was damaged - or they had the eggs intending to damage the property?

Would the gardai charge him for false imprisonment if he called them immediately, and didnt hurt them and had an adult witness?

If you give him a hiding i think egg throwing will be the least of your worries! (jail time for Xmas)

I think the gardai can charge them depending on their age, how old are they? i think they need to be over 14 though under s52 Children Act, 2001

I am no expert just a law student so curious myself!

Well if what seamus says is true about a citizens arrest. Then you could make a citizens arrest under ;

(b) intending by the damage to endanger the life of another or being reckless as to whether the life of another would be thereby endangered,

(b) on conviction on indictment—

(i) in case the person is guilty of arson under subsection (1) or (3) or of an offence under subsection (2) (whether arson or not), to a fine or imprisonment for life or both, and

(ii) in case the person is guilty of any other offence under this section, to a fine not exceeding £10,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or both.

OP , just clean it up. There winding you up knowing you will chase them, if it got more serious like a brick or something then go after them. But if there throwing bricks thru windows I doubt they give a rats about the law. So grab them and bring them back to your house and wait for the Garda. I'm sure the Garda will understand.

seamus

msg11 wrote: »

(b) intending by the damage to endanger the life of another or being reckless as to whether the life of another would be thereby endangered,

Remember that a citizen's arrest leaves the citizen open to charges of wrongful arrest and (if you detain them) unlawful detention.

So you'd want to be pretty sure that the person you're arresting has committed a serious crime. In the above case, you would need to be able to show in court that by the act of throwing eggs, these kids were intentionally or recklessly endangering someone's life. I don't think you could

James Jones

BobMc wrote: »

al28283 wrote: »

Teenagers? Best way to keep them doing it is to chase them. It's good craic unfortunately.

only difference being, I intend to catch em, 7minute miler here so they better be fast

They don't have to be fast. They only have to be faster than YOU (and taking 7 minutes to do a mile indicates that they would be).

msg11

seamus wrote: »

Remember that a citizen's arrest leaves the citizen open to charges of wrongful arrest and (if you detain them) unlawful detention.

So you'd want to be pretty sure that the person you're arresting has committed a serious crime. In the above case, you would need to be able to show in court that by the act of throwing eggs, these kids were intentionally or recklessly endangering someone's life. I don't think you could

I don't think you could either, if you killed someone with an egg, well that would be quite extraordinary.

born2bwild

msg11 wrote: »

I don't think you could either, if you killed someone with an egg, well that would be quite extraordinary.

Eggstraordinary.

born2bwild

Why not put a notice up in the local section of boards.ie appealing to posters to be mindful of what their children are doing?

I had an issue like this a few years back and did that. The problem stopped then but it may have been a coincidence.

dog with a bone

born2bwild wrote: »

Why not put a notice up in the local section of boards.ie appealing to posters to be mindful of what their children are doing?

I had an issue like this a few years back and did that. The problem stopped then but it may have been a coincidence.

Duh! like thats going to work.

Your dealing with scummers and they think you are an asshole so they target you.Get down to their level and knock the ****e out of them. Now your a dangerous asshole... and nobody goes near a dangerous asshole.
The world is getting tougher.. man up and bury one or two of them and everyone will respect your property and boundries,

NoQuarter

James Jones wrote: »

They don't have to be fast. They only have to be faster than YOU (and taking 7 minutes to do a mile indicates that they would be).

Is that you Sonia??