Champions League group seeding

ColeTrain

What do you think, should it be done away with?

Watching tonight's game got me thinking. Surely if the group stages were an open draw then there would be more entertaining games. UEFA and FIFA talk about fair play but at the end of the day it looks like a money racket until things get interesting in February.

I understand that some people might want to see the big teams all meet in the knock out round but surely this is having a detrimental effect on the entire tournament.

I don't think it's right that the so called big teams look have a strangle hold on easy groups. How are the likes of that Romanian team meant to improve their ranking if they don't have a realistic chance of winning a game. If things were right then it would be overhauled imo. Draw all of the teams in a open draw and let the strongest survive. If it ends up having two group of deaths and then a weaker group then let it play out. The best team will still come out in top, while the smaller teams might have a chance of actually doing something instead of just being compensated to make up the numbers.

NabyLadistheman

These problems are because of Platini & his meddling. There are far too many really poor teams involved now, probably the majority of the 4th place teams. It's been a snoozefest so far, for me anyway

Dempsey

Suarezistheman wrote: »

These problems are because of Platini & his meddling. There are far too many really poor teams involved now, probably the majority of the 4th place teams. It's been a snoozefest so far, for me anyway

I think Platini has done a good thing in giving more places to champions and not the also rans from the big leagues. The distribution of wealth by UEFA needs to be fairer and towards champions and not make the rich clubs richer.

Pinturicchio

Suarezistheman wrote: »

These problems are because of Platini & his meddling. There are far too many really poor teams involved now, probably the majority of the 4th place teams. It's been a snoozefest so far, for me anyway

He has done it because it guarantees him votes from the smaller associations in Europe.

Mr.Nice Guy

I would favour returning to a straight knock-out format. It's boring beyond belief until the knock-out stages. I heard on Sky Sports News something like Chelsea have qualified for the knock-out rounds for the last 8 or 9 years. I'm sure the stats are similar for most of the top sides. There should be a fear of being eliminated early.

ColeTrain

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I would favour returning to a straight knock-out format. It's boring beyond belief until the knock-out stages. I heard on Sky Sports News something like Chelsea have qualified for the knock-out rounds for the last 8 or 9 years. I'm sure the stats are similar for most of the top sides. There should be a fear of being eliminated early.

Teams basically qualifying after 3 games and then resting players.

It's not too appealing to watch unless your a fan of the club, even then I'd say it's not too enjoyable.

UnitedIrishman

I'd be more in favour of bringing back four groups of four with only two teams (max) from each country qualifying for the competition.

I'd also bring back the Cup Winners Cup.

But perhaps that's me just being nostalgic.

losthorizon

Suarezistheman wrote: »

These problems are because of Platini & his meddling. There are far too many really poor teams involved now, probably the majority of the 4th place teams. It's been a snoozefest so far, for me anyway

Its nothing to do with Platini really. It comes down to money and the Bosman ruling in all honesty. If UEFA try to do anything to level the playing field the bigger clubs usually start whispering about breaking away.

MY solution is just to do away totally with seeding AND have a totally open draw with teams from the same country being able to be in the same group. If I could I would bring back the three foreigner rule in football as that was great but its not possible.

carlop

To be fair, this year a number of groups are still quite tight. Napoli-City, United-Benfica and Leverkusen-Chelsea are all big games that could go against the favourite and leave them in quite a spot of bother.

Apoel topping their group is also adding a bit of a fairytale storyline to proceedings.

cgpg5

What about a qualifying phase held before Christmas and then in january/February start the champs league proper with 32 teams, 16 knockout games, winners progress to last 16 and so on, a knockout competition would make it more exciting and would lead to more surprising results. It would increase the excitement and the appeal of the tournament greatly.

Teams that qualify automatically-
England-top 3
Spain- top 3
France- 2
Italy- 2
Germany 2
Portuguese 2
Dutch winners
Europa league winners

Other 16 places are determined by playoffs

Tbh anything is better than current format, group games have turned into a joke.

tolosenc

And leave open the option of United, City, Real and Barca in the one group. Entertaining as that would be, none of those teams should be out early on.

PHB

It's guaranteed money for the smaller clubs, ensuring they get big TV revenue because the big teams are playing and ensuring that they can pack the stadiums.

ColeTrain

tolosenc wrote: »

And leave open the option of United, City, Real and Barca in the one group. Entertaining as that would be, none of those teams should be out early on.

Why not? Surely they should start on a equal playing field as every other team.

If they're that good then they've got six games to prove it.

PHB wrote: »

It's guaranteed money for the smaller clubs, ensuring they get big TV revenue because the big teams are playing and ensuring that they can pack the stadiums.

Is the competition solely about money or entertainment, that's the key question. The way it's set up now, it's the former most definitely.

gnfnrhead

ColeTrain wrote: »

Why not? Surely they should start on a equal playing field as every other team.

If they're that good then they've got six games to prove it.

Problem with doing that is you could end up with a final of Barcelona against someone like Otelul due to the big teams drawing each other and the small teams drawing each other every time. There is only one winner there for my money. There would end up being less interest in the competition as it went on.

RandolphEsq

Maybe the playoff qualifiers go into something like a round 1 and round 2 together, then the automatically qualified teams join in in round 3 and it is just a knockout round from there. Like the league cup I suppose. Less games, but more to play for.
Alternatively they could set it up like the Heineken Cup in rugby where every group game is so important.

ColeTrain

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Problem with doing that is you could end up with a final of Barcelona against someone like Otelul due to the big teams drawing each other and the small teams drawing each other every time. There is only one winner there for my money. There would end up being less interest in the competition as it went on.

If Otelul come through their group in a open draw.
Come through the last 16, quarter and semi in a open draw then they've earned their right to be there. Any way you look at it they would have to beat some decent teams to get there.

ArmaniJeanss

RandolphEsq wrote: »

Maybe the playoff qualifiers go into something like a round 1 and round 2 together, then the automatically qualified teams join in in round 3 and it is just a knockout round from there.

This isn't what the top teams want - they want their guaranteed 6 group games. And you could correctly say 'fck em' but they do wield power.

Its also not what the sponsors and TV companies want - Barca or Milan or MUFC being out after 0 group games and 1 knockout tie is not why Amstel or Ford or Sky are paying 10s of millions to be associated with or broadcast the competition.

And again you can say 'fck em', but when the next round of rights is being signed all you've done is encourage Ford to sponsor a tennis or golf tournament instead because they have the budget and the soccer competition they want to be associated with is no longer there. So you just end up with less money to all sections of the game.

So everyones ideas are fine and dandy but none of them are ever going to be runners.

Paparazzo

Remember all these boring nights next time there's a World Cup V Champions League poll.

JPA

ColeTrain wrote: »

Is the competition solely about money or entertainment, that's the key question. The way it's set up now, it's the former most definitely.

It's the biggest bloody money spinner going, the board of the likes of Arsenal have been getting rich off it for years.

gnfnrhead

ColeTrain wrote: »

If Otelul come through their group in a open draw.
Come through the last 16, quarter and semi in a open draw then they've earned their right to be there. Any way you look at it they would have to beat some decent teams to get there.

Not necessarily, with a completly open draw, all the lower ranked teams could end up against each other the entire way through while the higher ranked teams face each other in the group stages. You could get lucky and not have to face any decent teams before the final.

I dont see any problem with giving those teams who have done well in the competition in recent years a slight advantage early on instead of punishing them by putting them in a group of death while a rival club could get a walk over of a group. Once the big teans start going out, people start to lose interest. Remember when Porto and Monaco were in the final? Compared to Liverpool vs AC Milan the year after, nobody cared. Trying to get big teams out in the group stage would be suicide.

ColeTrain

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

This isn't what the top teams want - they want their guaranteed 6 group games. And you could correctly say 'fck em' but they do wield power.

Its also not what the sponsors and TV companies want - Barca or Milan or MUFC being out after 0 group games and 1 knockout tie is not why Amstel or Ford or Sky are paying 10s of millions to be associated with or broadcast the competition.

And again you can say 'fck em', but when the next round of rights is being signed all you've done is encourage Ford to sponsor a tennis or golf tournament instead because they have the budget and the soccer competition they want to be associated with is no longer there. So you just end up with less money to all sections of the game.

So everyones ideas are fine and dandy but none of them are ever going to be runners.

Spot on really and that explains why we won't see an open draw anytime soon, if ever.

JPA wrote: »

It's the biggest bloody money spinner going, the board of the likes of Arsenal have been getting rich off it for years.

Of course it is but it's fuc*king up the tournament from a sporting viewpoint.

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Not necessarily, with a completly open draw, all the lower ranked teams could end up against each other the entire way through while the higher ranked teams face each other in the group stages. You could get lucky and not have to face any decent teams before the final.

I dont see any problem with giving those teams who have done well in the competition in recent years a slight advantage early on instead of punishing them by putting them in a group of death while a rival club could get a walk over of a group. Once the big teans start going out, people start to lose interest. Remember when Porto and Monaco were in the final? Compared to Liverpool vs AC Milan the year after, nobody cared. Trying to get big teams out in the group stage would be suicide.

I take your point about the example of the Monaco and Porto final. But competitions shouldn't be fixed. The GAA weren't too keen of having a Cork vs Kerry final re-run but in fairness to them they let it play out.

By giving these teams an advantage so early on you're killing the majority of Europe of having any chance of real progression.

The clubs with this advantage are the elite who are already spending plenty of money. The point is it makes it nearly impossible for new clubs to break into the fat cat circle.

It's disappointing but of course it makes sense from a marketing and financial viewpoint.

tolosenc

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Problem with doing that is you could end up with a final of Barcelona against someone like Otelul due to the big teams drawing each other and the small teams drawing each other every time. There is only one winner there for my money. There would end up being less interest in the competition as it went on.

Plus weaker teams going down by 10 goals over 2 legs in the last 16, rather than parachuting into the Europa League.

dsmythy

ColeTrain wrote: »

What do you think, should it be done away with?

Watching tonight's game got me thinking. Surely if the group stages were an open draw then there would be more entertaining games. UEFA and FIFA talk about fair play but at the end of the day it looks like a money racket until things get interesting in February.

I understand that some people might want to see the big teams all meet in the knock out round but surely this is having a detrimental effect on the entire tournament.

I don't think it's right that the so called big teams look have a strangle hold on easy groups. How are the likes of that Romanian team meant to improve their ranking if they don't have a realistic chance of winning a game. If things were right then it would be overhauled imo. Draw all of the teams in a open draw and let the strongest survive. If it ends up having two group of deaths and then a weaker group then let it play out. The best team will still come out in top, while the smaller teams might have a chance of actually doing something instead of just being compensated to make up the numbers.

Out of 8 groups, with 4 sets of games played, in only one are the number one and two slots wrapped up. The rest have all to play for.

In the one group where the top two are pretty much through, there is still the third place to fight for to parachute into the Europa League to play weaker teams and pick up wins and co-eff points. The first and second teams will presumably want to end in first to play a team who finished second in another group although it's not 100% guaranteed to be an easier game but I'd still rather finish top. So even that group is still being played out by all four teams for different reasons.

I don't see the problem with the group stages.

smokedeels

There's still a decent fight going on in some of the groups for second, groups C and H are the only ones I'd call right now.

KeithAFC

Only gets interesting in the knock-out stages.

batistuta9

losthorizon wrote: »

Its nothing to do with Platini really. It comes down to money and the Bosman ruling in all honesty. If UEFA try to do anything to level the playing field the bigger clubs usually start whispering about breaking away.

MY solution is just to do away totally with seeding AND have a totally open draw with teams from the same country being able to be in the same group. If I could I would bring back the three foreigner rule in football as that was great but its not possible.

Yeah teams from the same country should be able to be drawn in the same group and be able to play each other in first KO round too(this is probably a worse rule imo).

splitting the teams into different halves of the draw based on their country is another one i don't like (from A-D & E-H if you don't know what i mean) this is done because of TV deals
This year when there was only a few teams left to be put into their groups & man city was one of them, there was the group with barca & milan and city couldn't be drawn into it because arsenal & chelsea were in that half of the draw already

cgpg5 wrote: »

What about a qualifying phase held before Christmas and then in january/February start the champs league proper with 32 teams, 16 knockout games, winners progress to last 16 and so on, a knockout competition would make it more exciting and would lead to more surprising results. It would increase the excitement and the appeal of the tournament greatly.

Teams that qualify automatically-
England-top 3
Spain- top 3
France- 2
Italy- 2
Germany 2
Portuguese 2
Dutch winners
Europa league winners

Other 16 places are determined by playoffs

Tbh anything is better than current format, group games have turned into a joke.

There's countries with better coefficients than those two anyway wouldn't be that fair on them

tolosenc wrote: »

And leave open the option of United, City, Real and Barca in the one group. Entertaining as that would be, none of those teams should be out early on.

why not? just their big names?

not that long ago united didn't make it out of their group and city aren't guaranteed to this year

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Problem with doing that is you could end up with a final of Barcelona against someone like Otelul due to the big teams drawing each other and the small teams drawing each other every time. There is only one winner there for my money. There would end up being less interest in the competition as it went on.

If it were a straight knock out comp. having just one game like the FA cup would be a good idea i think & for that format

the two leg format favours the stronger team a lot more. Barca a good example for this - 1. last year losing to arsenal, hammer them second leg
2. arsenal again. they let 2 goal lead slip , hammer them second leg
3. away Vs. stuttgard drew 0-0, hammer them second leg

if games 2 & 3 had went to extra time they might have been KO'd, game 1 they would have been out

the way it is now there's still usually still only one winner for your money as well

dfx-

Paparazzo wrote: »

Remember all these boring nights next time there's a World Cup V Champions League poll.

Should just put on repeats of USA v Slovenia, Ghana v Uruguay, Germany v Argentina, Italy v Germany 2006, 2002..instead

Boskowski

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Remember when Porto and Monaco were in the final? Compared to Liverpool vs AC Milan the year after, nobody cared. Trying to get big teams out in the group stage would be suicide.

That's just a tad arrogant though init or at least a little narrow minded.
You and me diidnt care and possibly not that many EPL followers but a European competition is just that, a European competition.
I'm sure a lot of French and Portuguese fans cared quite a bit.

RandolphEsq

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

This isn't what the top teams want - they want their guaranteed 6 group games. And you could correctly say 'fck em' but they do wield power.

Its also not what the sponsors and TV companies want - Barca or Milan or MUFC being out after 0 group games and 1 knockout tie is not why Amstel or Ford or Sky are paying 10s of millions to be associated with or broadcast the competition.

And again you can say 'fck em', but when the next round of rights is being signed all you've done is encourage Ford to sponsor a tennis or golf tournament instead because they have the budget and the soccer competition they want to be associated with is no longer there. So you just end up with less money to all sections of the game.

So everyones ideas are fine and dandy but none of them are ever going to be runners.

Well I know it is completely down to money but hopefully there will be proper financial regulation sometime soon that will stop the likes of Man City buying everyone's best players and paying them stupid amounts of money. I have gone off passionately following the Premiership because it seems hypocritical to get overexcited about such a soulless league. The homegrown rule doesn't go far enough but if it did I feel it would lead to the Champions League being more exciting. Unfortunately though a stricter homegrown rule can possibly lead to exploitation of teenagers so it would need to be created with that in mind.

dsmythy

Exciting last series of games coming up lads. Only Group H has two teams qualified.

Three teams have no points and one of them is Villareal.

Bottom seeds APOEL are through to the knockout phase.