Reintroduction of fees

Anita Blow

Not sure if this is the right place but with the USI Ads in the paper yesterday and the upcoming student protest which looks to the be the biggest ever, do you think the government will/should reintroduce third level fees?

I'm divided as I know we need a sustainable revenue for colleges. However, I fall on the no side for 3 main reasons.
Firstly, both Fine Gael & Labour made election promises not to raise 3rd level fees. Ruairi Quinn himself went as far as to sign a USI Pledge publically that Labour would not raise fees during their time in office. Now however, not one TD has agreed to uphold that promise. I think that if so many students voted them in on the basis of this pledge, it's their duty to uphold that pledge.

Secondly, the government has ruled out both a graduate tax and loan system (The only workable proposals imo) This only leaves the student to pay upfront the fees if introduced. I'm not sure many can actually do this, especially now. At least the loan system/graduate tax allows everyone to go to college if they choose, and still be able to fully pay for it later when they have a job.

Thirdly, I'm a college student now. I'm just in first year. There's no way in hell that I, or most of my friends would be able to pay the €5000 per year figure that's being thrown around recently as the new fee in the upcoming budget.

With the huge drop off in student numbers that would ensue, what would happen to all the college campuses which have invested and expanded over the years to huge sizes to meet demand? Will many buildings become empty and unused after the money invested?

The governments silence on this issue has been astounding. So far we have only been told "It'll be less than the UK's fees". That's comforting, considering their fees are only €10,500.

mikemac

Anita Blow wrote: »

I think that if so many students voted them in on the basis of this pledge, it's their duty to uphold that pledge.

Politicians have been breaking promises since, well since the very first politicians.
Prepared to be disappointed many more times over your lifetime

Anita Blow wrote: »

Thirdly, I'm a college student now. I'm just in first year. There's no way in hell that I, or most of my friends would be able to pay the €5000 per year figure that's being thrown around recently as the new fee in the upcoming budget. .

I would think you would get a waiver though. I read somewhere it's just for new students but as you say, very little info out there

Anita Blow

mikemac wrote: »

Politicians have been breaking promises since, well since the very first politicians.
Prepared to be disappointed many more times over your lifetime

I get that, but I think that if they were so emphatic about not raising the student contribution, then they shouldn't go back on that.
If he signed a pledge, and was happy enough to milk the opportunity to gain votes, then he should be happy enough to uphold that pledge.

I suppose it relates to one of the recent threads here asking should pre-election pledges be legally binding.

mikemac wrote: »

I would think you would get a waiver though. I read somewhere it's just for new students but as you say, very little info out there

The government has also ruled out means testing as it would be too expensive to implement.

Iwasfrozen

I don't think it will come off. Students are just too loud, organised, and centered around Dublin which makes protests so much easier to get off the ground. There's even talk around UCD of occupying Government buildings should the worst come to the worst. To be honest there are much easier targets out there for the government to attack.

RichardAnd

It's my opinion that student fees have to be looked at in some shape or form because the current scheme of fees by the back door via ever increasing registration fees is inefficient and disingenuous. However, the students are right to protest as a promise has been broken.

thebman

I think you can have a good fee free system if you have a government that is willing to stay out of it.

The fact that no Irish government is able to pull that off is yet another indictment of Irish political parties that have gained power in this country.

Not that the opposition would be any better TBH. The problem is our political system IMO.

Eliot Rosewater

Like the OP I am in third year college, but I am in favour fees. The "anecdotal case" for fees has been strengthened over the past few months for two reasons.

1. First, all Irish Universities took a hitting in the latest QS and Times rankings. Yes, I'm aware that UCC went up four places in QS, but it went down in the Times. This is worrying generally, but also specifically for students, like myself, who will be relying on the reputation of our undergraduate degrees internationally afterwards.
2. Seemingly one of the major reasons for the drop is the reduced staff-student ratio. The increase in the student population in UCC this year is very noticeable. This is especially true of foreign students: with a shortage of revenue from domestics the university is now forced to take on more students from abroad who pay fees.

In my opinion the pro-fees lobby exists in an alternative reality to that of the university on two counts. First, the pro-fees movement is in denial about the state of university funding. When not in the position of actually managing the finances, it's easy to mentally brush the issue under the carpet. Second, I believe that the cultural attitude to third level education promoted by the pro-fees movement is totally flawed. I think third level education serves a very important purpose, but that it shouldn't be a "default" option that every Irish teenager is expected to take.

Finally, I think those organising the pro-fees movement are fundamentally dishonest. Though they have much rhetoric about opportunity and fairness, I think the central motivate is base human cheapness: they're getting something for cheap now, and they don't want to pay more. When I stop constantly hearing about mad nights out in town and about the thousands of euro student bodies throw around for parties and trips, I'll start thinking that maybe the average student is struggling as much as the USI likes to let on.

Lockstep

I'd say a more pressing issue than fees is the grant system with grant cuts and adjatency changes being a very pressing concern.

These are the issues affecting students from disadvantaged backgrounds (the current registration fee only applies to those on middle incomes and higher)

Manach

Given the state of the country, Fees are something that this country cannot afford. I'd agree with the OP that a loan system would be a good way to go, provided it maintains a low interest rate that will not be a lifelong burden to the student. Being a mature student who pays fees, for my fellow oldies and I there is a drive to get fees worth and maximise use of the educational facilities, .

swizzle123

Fees are a stooopid idea... In fairness introducing fees would mean hundreds of students not affording them which will lead to a) people dropping out or b) not going at all which would in turn result in more unemployment and more social welfare payments...

If this country does ever recover from this crappy situation we are in we will need an educated workforce (or so I hear ) so why make it harder for the students....

I will completely agree with anyone who says the grant systems are a joke... The payments are always late and takes forever to get accepted after applying... like in my third year it was Feb before I got a first payment... I really struggled then...

NO TO FEES

dashboard_hula

I heard this yesterday on Matt Cooper (wasn't it?) who was speaking to the head of the USI, and a female Labour TD from Dublin (didn't catch her name).

Not that it's relevant to the topic, but I don't think that the Labour TD should have been let anywhere near the airwaves. She sounded absolutely terrified of being on-air, unsure of her answers, and trotted out a very trite "well, I didn't get the email from the USI, and even if I did I didn't have time to think about it." In that case, appearing on Matt Cooper with the president of the USI mightn't have been a great idea.

As the poster above stated, Irelands university and 3rd level rankings have tumbled lately. Our previously vaunted reputation for excellence in education (such as it was) is rapidly disappearing. Most of our colleges have now become degree mills, with students studying things like "Sports and Leisure" and "Recreational Management". I don't think that every 18 year old in Ireland should take it for granted that they will go to university, our parents certainly didn't and couldn't. It sounds harsh and elitist, but I don't think the State should be obliged to fund mostly-free 3rd level education for absolutely everyone who can scrape enough points to get into something that sounds easy.

Is there any reason why graduate loans/taxes have been ruled out? Are there any calls for colleges and IT's to commit to managing their funds more effectively (which seems to be a big issue for my one)? Is there a sustained effort to promote Irish colleges to foreign students?

*Edit - I reread what I wrote, and I think perhaps I'm not so much pro-fees, as anti-free fees for shítty degrees.

Sleepy

Scrap automatic free fees for all courses and replace with a grants system funding courses which educate our students in areas which have the potential to prepare them for gainful employment: languages. maths, science, IT, commerce, medicine etc. Perhaps funding of certain degrees such as medicine could come with handcuffs requiring the student to spend their first x years of employment working in the Irish Public Healthcare system etc.

booth

I think the bottom line is the current government have been given a mandate by the people based on their manifestos and what they have promised.
We are €3.6bn better off than we were 2 days ago in terms of national debt.
Education is the only way forward for the future and we are from the isle of saints and scholars after all.
The government need to be held to their promises by the people who have elected them.

DB21

Bringing back fees will make Third Level a rich boys club again. If Quinn is so comfortable with this idea, he should have no problem approaching every student/prospective student that cannot afford fees and tell them such.

Pride Fighter

In the 1970's the USI was infiltrated by the Workers Party and various Marxists and was used as a vehicle to promote their agenda electorally.

The same is happening now, USI has been infiltrated by Fianna Fail who are doing the exact same thing as the Workers Party in the 70's. The majority of the officer board of the USI for the past several years have been Fianna Fail dominated and still is. This is due to low voter turnout in the various campuses across Ireland for SU elections and that FF dominate or have sway in most SU's. I know for a fact the USI are only doing this demonstration in order to weaken the Labour Party so that their reps have a better chance in the local elections in the 2014 local elections. That is really slimy in my view and flies in the face of looking after student welfare, which the USI should be doing.

Alopex

In favour of fees as long as there is an inflation linked loan on offer to students who cannot afford it. Quinn has ruled this out previously though.

mikemac

Tis a long while since I was in college but it's still goes on with my younger brothers and sisters and the grant system is a joke

Apply in July or August and you're lucky if you get the grant by Christmas, one year it was late January
And there was duplication, what we called certs and diplomas went the VEC and degrees went to the local authority

I know the VEC's around the country are being merged
And I'm not looking for another quango but if they can't do the job it should be taken off them and be done nationally by one body.
Make some of the VEC staff redundant while you do it so we're not employing people with little work to do

RichardAnd

When ever the issue of fees arises, it brings up a greater issue with third level education; how useful is it? College seems to be a default extension of school which it isn't. It's supposed to open a door for a person into an far more specific area where as school is meant to teach the basic requirements of adulthood aswell as keeping kids occupied for most of the day.

Personally, I detested every day I spent in college. The environment, the system of teaching and the general atmosphere were very difficult for me to adjust to and due to the points system, I was unable to study what I really wanted to in the first place. I wasn't alone in this either, as huge numbers of my fellow students dropped out or otherwise fell behind. This would suggest to me that college is not for everyone but the system seems to be that no degree means a dead end job.

If college was more specialised, more practical and didn't try to be something for everyone, it would produce a smaller number of good graduates. As someone mentioned above, the recent hammering of Irish universities in the polls really demonstrates that the current system just isn't working.

Anita Blow

But I just don't understand why a graduate tax was ruled out. That would start generating revenue by next year.
My argument isn't about whether fees should be re-introduced, but the way in which it might happen. I just don't understand why the government has ruled out the only 2 proposals which would keep college open to all, but would still provide a revenue stream through loan repayments/graduate tax. Instead, all that they are likely to do is to double the current fee and require it up front. It seems so idiotic.

Bergkamp 10

If tuition fees come in, I'm fairly sure I wont be in college due to it. Its dear enough as it is with rip off accommodation, and 2000 euro "fees" already, so we arent already having free fees.

My brother will probably be in college next year, neither of us have a job and I've been looking for a year and a half now and nothing. Its hard enough as it is, if tuition fees come in your talking about at least 20k between us, because we are marginally over the grant and I assume that the grant levels wont change much.

That sort of money is just not feasible! Added to the fact I dont know what I want to work at and my degree is broad, and I dont particularly enjoy it, then it doesnt look likely I will be completing it.

Unfortunately that piece of paper is what you need for most prospective jobs and even these days it isnt enough. As you can see I'm am not hopeful about my future!