Joe Flacco

Paully D

I'd be interested in hearing your opinions on Joe Flacco.

Cheers

Chucky the tree

Bust tbh. He's is far too inconsistant and never shown the ability to be excellent over a length of time. He's still young for a QB but in this year in his 4th year I expected a lot from him. He's holding an otherwise excellent Ravens team back quite a lot.

Paully D

From what I've seen of him I'd have to agree that for the Ravens to move forward they probably need to go in a different direction at QB.

He seems very inconsistent and is a massive, massive confidence player. If he starts off well he usually has a good game, but if he starts off with a few incomplete passes then the Ravens can forget about it for another week.

I guess the fact that his receivers have changed quite a bit this season along with the QB coach being changed hasn't helped, but he does seem a bit ''meh'' to me.

A very frustrating player IMO.

mikemac

Paully D wrote: »

but if he starts off with a few incomplete passes then the Ravens can forget about it for another week.

Ravens overcame a twenty one point deficit on Sunday, that's a franchise record

Oh and the QB coach wasn't changed, Jim Zorn got sacked and now there is no QB coach.
But Flacco and Cam Cameron barely on speaking terms so it's not a good relationship.

FlutterinBantam

mikemac wrote: »

Ravens overcame a twenty one point deficit on Sunday, that's a franchise record

Oh and the QB coach wasn't changed, Jim Zorn got sacked and now there is no QB coach.
But Flacco and Cam Cameron barely on speaking terms so it's not a good relationship.

Joe is a good QB, atmosphere is poison, not good for a guy suffering.

Something is rotten.

Peyton Manning

I wouldn't judge any QB under a sham like Cam Cameron. Flacco hasn't dazzled, but I'd like to see him under a play caller with even a hint of imagination.

There's a motivational poster of an angry Cam Cameron shouting from the sidelines "No no no! We are NOT scoring in the second half, that's the defences job!". It's a scarily accurate portrayal.

matthew8

Jeez if Flacco's a bust then who isn't? He was the 18th pick. He's the best thing to happen to the team since Ray Lewis. He came into a Ravens team that finished last in the AFC North and has taken them to the playoffs 3 years in a row. This guy has all the tools. He's tough, he can run, he's accurate, and throws a brilliant deep ball. The rest of the offense holds him back. While the TE play isn't too bad and he has an elite RB the offensive line is too inconsistent and his receivers were muck for his first 3 years. This guy is the future of the franchise.

Chucky the tree

matthew8 wrote: »

Jeez if Flacco's a bust then who isn't? He was the 18th pick. He's the best thing to happen to the team since Ray Lewis. He came into a Ravens team that finished last in the AFC North and has taken them to the playoffs 3 years in a row. This guy has all the tools. He's tough, he can run, he's accurate, and throws a brilliant deep ball. The rest of the offense holds him back. While the TE play isn't too bad and he has an elite RB the offensive line is too inconsistent and his receivers were muck for his first 3 years. This guy is the future of the franchise.

The offense hold him back? come on. Yea Derrick Mason and Anquan boldin are "muck" alright. flacco is terrible really, for the team he plays on his performaces haven't been good enough. It's even worse in the play-offs, it's actually embarrissing how terrible he has been in the play-offs. Games against the Pats, Colts and Steelersx2 in the last two year have been horrible. 4 touchdowns in 7 play-off games is a disgrace, especially when half of those game in one game against the chiefs. There's roughly about 20 Qb's in the NFL I'd have ahead of Flacco.

Syferus

Flacco has flaws but his stats and record shows he's anything but a bust. Ravens fans have been complaining about Cam Cameron for an age, even when things were going very well, so perhaps that's the link that needs fixing before even dreaming about commenting on Flacco being a 'bust'.

tallaghtoutlaws

Flacco isn't the problem in Baltimore. Cam Cameron is a high end knob end and a terrible coach. Harbaugh is a fool thinking Cameron is doing his offense any justice. Flacco has shown on many occasions he has the abilties but their offense is so negative its not even funny.

Adding to that this year is the first time in since Harbaugh took over the Ravens have even had a consistent outside speed threat originally in the form of Evans until he got injured but Smith seems to have stepped up or shown flashes. Boldin is a great Possession WR as was Mason but neither over that speed deep down field that would give Flacco Options and take the heat off their possession guys.

Baltimore have never had that speed guy in Flacco's time and not that it matters with that horrible play calling but had they got a geniune speed threat on the outside you would see a better Flacco. And as someone else mentioned it does seem like there is issues between Cameron and Flacco.

Here is Cameron trying to blame Flacco by directing the heat through himself.

http://blogs.baltimoreravens.com/2011/10/25/harbaugh-cameron-review-each-offensive-snap/

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The offense hold him back? come on. Yea Derrick Mason and Anquan boldin are "muck" alright.

I would agree with Matthew8 see above.

Chucky the tree

Well every QB in the nfl would improve and look better with an elite speed WR. Question is how many QB's with an excellent defensive, excellent running back, good oline play, excellent possession WR's and good tight end play would look as average as Flacco has?

matthew8

The offense hold him back? come on. Yea Derrick Mason and Anquan boldin are "muck" alright.

They're both the same guys, possession receivers. They're good receivers but a receiving corps needs to have a deep threat.

flacco is terrible really, for the team he plays on his performaces haven't been good enough.

That's rubbish really. His performances are good enough because he plays for the Ravens.

It's even worse in the play-offs, it's actually embarrissing how terrible he has been in the play-offs. Games against the Pats, Colts and Steelersx2 in the last two year have been horrible. 4 touchdowns in 7 play-off games is a disgrace, especially when half of those game in one game against the chiefs.

In his first 3 years he was poor in the playoffs, true, but last year he was pretty good. A good performance vs. the Chiefs followed by a great first half against the Steelers and then his second half, in which he had an endzone pass in the breadbasket to go ahead late in the 4th quarter dropped by Anquan Boldin, and a superb downfield throw to Houshmanzadeh on 4th and 18 which was dropped in the breadbasket which ended the game.

There's roughly about 20 Qb's in the NFL I'd have ahead of Flacco.

Go on, name every single one of them.

matthew8

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Well every QB in the nfl would improve and look better with an elite speed WR. Question is how many QB's with an excellent defensive, excellent running back, good oline play, excellent possession WR's and good tight end play would look as average as Flacco has?

The o-line has been average, this year it's a total makeshift offensive line. And Anquan Boldin is barely a number 1 wide receiver, let alone excellent. To answer your question, all but 10 probably would.

Chucky the tree

1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Tom Brady
3. Peyton Manning
4. Philip Rivers
5. Drew Brees
6. Ben Rothlesberger
7. Matt Schuab
8. Mike vick
9. Matthew Stafford
10. Ryan Fitzpaterick
11. Matt Ryan
12. Jay Cutler
13. Cam Newton
14. eli Manning
15. Sam Bradford

I'd easily have all those ahead of Flacco without any hesitation. The following is a bit more debatable but I'd probably take Freeman based on potential and Sanchez based on his being about as average as Flacco but far better in the play-offs.

1. Josh Freeman
2. Mark Sanchez
3. Matt Cassel
4. Alex Smith

matthew8

Chucky the tree wrote: »

1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Tom Brady
3. Peyton Manning
4. Philip Rivers
5. Drew Brees
6. Ben Rothlesberger
7. Matt Schuab
8. Mike vick
9. Matthew Stafford
10. Ryan Fitzpaterick
11. Matt Ryan
12. Jay Cutler
13. Cam Newton
14. eli Manning
15. Sam Bradford

I'd easily have all those ahead of Flacco without any hesitation. The following is a bit more debatable but I'd probably take Freeman based on potential and Sanchez based on his being about as average as Flacco but far better in the play-offs.

1. Josh Freeman
2. Mark Sanchez
3. Matt Cassel
4. Alex Smith

A whole lot of one year wonders in there, as well as a lot of guys who have never taken their team to the playoffs. Also, a lot of guys who are every bit as inconsistent as Flacco.

Chucky the tree

matthew8 wrote: »

A whole lot of one year wonders in there, as well as a lot of guys who have never taken their team to the playoffs. Also, a lot of guys who are every bit as inconsistent as Flacco.

and a lot of guys who don't have an elite defense, elite running back, good WR's, good tight end and good O-line play. I

themont85

Chucky the tree wrote: »

1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Tom Brady
3. Peyton Manning
4. Philip Rivers
5. Drew Brees
6. Ben Rothlesberger
7. Matt Schuab
8. Mike vick
9. Matthew Stafford
10. Ryan Fitzpaterick
11. Matt Ryan
12. Jay Cutler
13. Cam Newton
14. eli Manning
15. Sam Bradford

I'd easily have all those ahead of Flacco without any hesitation. The following is a bit more debatable but I'd probably take Freeman based on potential and Sanchez based on his being about as average as Flacco but far better in the play-offs.

1. Josh Freeman
2. Mark Sanchez
3. Matt Cassel
4. Alex Smith

Lot of half season wonders and no PO appearing QBs there. Matt Ryan is pretty inconsistent and it's only this year that people are realising that he is overrated.

Whilst I agree that Flacco isn't very good (he is an infuriating player) and lucky to be on a good team, he still has got his team there consistently.

tallaghtoutlaws

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Well every QB in the nfl would improve and look better with an elite speed WR. Question is how many QB's with an excellent defensive, excellent running back, good oline play, excellent possession WR's and good tight end play would look as average as Flacco has?

Where did I say Elite? The Ravens have never even had anyone of speed down the flanks with any sort of consistency in Flacco's time. Plenty of non Elite fast as fook WR who will help open the field out there. They all don't have to be Randy Moss or Larry Fitz types they just need to be able to open up the passing game down the flanks.

ReacherCreature

I'd take Flacco over Newton, Bradford, Sanchez, and Freeman. Sure he's inconsistent and all but he's won some good games and pulled through. I doubt he's a bust, when I hear 'bust' I think Leaf, Carr, Harrington, Leinart etc. Flacco has won some games, some albeit on the back of a great defense, not the worst QB.

ReacherCreature

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Where did I say Elite? The Ravens have never even had anyone of speed down the flanks with any sort of consistency in Flacco's time. Plenty of non Elite fast as fook WR who will help open the field out there. They all don't have to be Randy Moss or Larry Fitz types they just need to be able to open up the passing game down the flanks.

With the advent of Torrey Smith, Flacco's been going deep. Smith has 21.7 avg. per catch. Granted just 15 receptions but speed is helping Flacco.

tallaghtoutlaws

ReacherCreature wrote: »

With the advent of Torrey Smith, Flacco's been going deep. Smith has 21.7 avg. per catch. Granted just 15 receptions but speed is helping Flacco.

Yup and when Evans come back from injury fully fit him and Smith will make a huge difference to the Ravens passing game. Exactly what the Ravens have needed in a long time.

Chucky the tree

themont85 wrote: »

Lot of half season wonders and no PO appearing QBs there. Matt Ryan is pretty inconsistent and it's only this year that people are realising that he is overrated.

Whilst I agree that Flacco isn't very good (he is an infuriating player) and lucky to be on a good team, he still has got his team there consistently.

So because they haven't made the play-offs they aren't good QB's? Over half of the players on the list have made the QB's, with it increasing after this year most likely. Matt Ryan has been there 2/3 years so while I agree he's overrated I don't think he's worse then Flacco.

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Where did I say Elite? The Ravens have never even had anyone of speed down the flanks with any sort of consistency in Flacco's time. Plenty of non Elite fast as fook WR who will help open the field out there. They all don't have to be Randy Moss or Larry Fitz types they just need to be able to open up the passing game down the flanks.

Easier said then done to findy a speedy WR who can catch, run good routes has good hands aswell. Even then he should be showing alot more then he has with two excellent possesion WR's.

ReacherCreature wrote: »

I'd take Flacco over Newton, Bradford, Sanchez, and Freeman. Sure he's inconsistent and all but he's won some good games and pulled through. I doubt he's a bust, when I hear 'bust' I think Leaf, Carr, Harrington, Leinart etc. Flacco has won some games, some albeit on the back of a great defense, not the worst QB.

I suppose it all comes down to peoples own definition of a bust. Flacco ranks about middle of the pack in terms of NFL QB's. For a first round pick I think that's a disappointing return.

frostie500

Flacco came into a team that went 5-11 and as a rookie he helped turn them around to 11-5 and went to the Conference Championship game where they were beaten by the Steelers who won the Superbowl that year. In his second season he had a +9 turnover differential and threw for 3600 yards in a season where Ray Rice ran for 1400 yards and the team went on the road and beat the Patriots in the wild card game with a dominant performance before being beaten once again by the eventual AFC champion Colts.
Two years ago they thrashed the Chiefs in the wildcard weekend and were beaten the Steelers, who if I remember right needed some sort of miracle play to convert a long third or fourth down, who went on to be beaten in the Superbowl by the Packers and this year they are 5-2.
Say what you want about Flacco but he has provided Baltimore with solid production from the QB position with 3500 yards a season and 20 something TDs while hardly being a turnover machine.

Look at Flacco and Sanchez in comparison to his draft mate Matt Ryan. Im a big fan of Ryan but he hasnt won a play off game yet whereas the other two have gone to AFC championship games
The offence doesnt let him shine but Flacco has done more than enough to show he deserves his place as a starter in the NFL.
Factor in players like Matt Schuab who hasnt even led the Texans into the playoffs despite a very talented roster, and I really dont see how anyone could have Flacco as barely a top 20 QB in the league

tallaghtoutlaws

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Easier said then done to findy a speedy WR who can catch, run good routes has good hands aswell. Even then he should be showing alot more then he has with two excellent possesion WR's.

Lee Evans has proven that but for injury he hasn't been able to show it with Ravens and Smith now looks like he is the real deal but tell me this where did elite come into it? Plenty of capable Fast WR in the NFL who can catch on the run at speed. But the lack that extra edge Moss and Co have.

2 Possession guys? Boldin is 1 who is the other? And Possession WR really enough in your mind? You think having 2 Possession guys is enough for any QB? Come on you surely know the sport better than that. Even the Patriots will tell you speed on the outside is key. Without solid Speedy WR on the outside you create a 1 dimensional offense where you depend on everything short or across the middle because lets face it most possession WR do their damage after the catch and usually across the middle.

Problem is with only Boldin you make it easy for the Defense to close out your main threat and without someone to the outside who do you depend on then? Especially when you have no one deep to throw to.

Chucky the tree

frostie500 wrote: »

Flacco came into a team that went 5-11 and as a rookie he helped turn them around to 11-5 and went to the Conference Championship game where they were beaten by the Steelers who won the Superbowl that year. In his second season he had a +9 turnover differential and threw for 3600 yards in a season where Ray Rice ran for 1400 yards and the team went on the road and beat the Patriots in the wild card game with a dominant performance before being beaten once again by the eventual AFC champion Colts.
Two years ago they thrashed the Chiefs in the wildcard weekend and were beaten the Steelers, who if I remember right needed some sort of miracle play to convert a long third or fourth down, who went on to be beaten in the Superbowl by the Packers and this year they are 5-2.
Say what you want about Flacco but he has provided Baltimore with solid production from the QB position with 3500 yards a season and 20 something TDs while hardly being a turnover machine.

Look at Flacco and Sanchez in comparison to his draft mate Matt Ryan. Im a big fan of Ryan but he hasnt won a play off game yet whereas the other two have gone to AFC championship games
The offence doesnt let him shine but Flacco has done more than enough to show he deserves his place as a starter in the NFL.
Factor in players like Matt Schuab who hasnt even led the Texans into the playoffs despite a very talented roster, and I really dont see how anyone could have Flacco as barely a top 20 QB in the league

I will give credit to Joe Flacco for being better then Kyle Boller, not going to argue to that. Also, I'm really not sure why you quote his play-off games, he was horrendous in nearly all of them.

In 2008 over 3 games his stats were 44%, 5.8 avg, 1TD 3 Ints 50.8 rating, they won in spite of Flacco. As for the dominant performance against the Pats, again in spite of Flacco, who was 4/10 for 34 yards and 0 TD's and 1 interception. As for the Conference game against Steelers, his 57%, 5.4 avg and 0 touchdowns and 2 ints probably didn't help his teams chances of winning.

Texans have always had a very talents offense but a poor defense and even Matt Ryand have never been an elite defense like the Ravens.

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Lee Evans has proven that but for injury he hasn't been able to show it with Ravens and Smith now looks like he is the real deal but tell me this where did elite come into it? Plenty of capable Fast WR in the NFL who can catch on the run at speed. But the lack that extra edge Moss and Co have.

2 Possession guys? Boldin is 1 who is the other? And Possession WR really enough in your mind? You think having 2 Possession guys is enough for any QB? Come on you surely know the sport better than that. Even the Patriots will tell you speed on the outside is key. Without solid Speedy WR on the outside you create a 1 dimensional offense where you depend on everything short or across the middle because lets face it most possession WR do their damage after the catch and usually across the middle.

Problem is with only Boldin you make it easy for the Defense to close out your main threat and without someone to the outside who do you depend on then? Especially when you have no one deep to throw to.

Derrick Mason up until this year was excellent for the Ravens. I'm not sure what fast, good WR's are widely available though. You claim an deep guy will help Flacco, and it will, but a deep threat guy would also be a big help to guys like Alex Smith, Jason Campbell, Sam Bradford etc. However I honestly not sure those guys would ever put in the performances flacco has in the play-offs with the talent he has around him.

Look at Schuab, I think he'd much prefer an elite defense and good/average WR#s then an elite WR like AJ while having a terrible pass defense and so would most QB's.

tallaghtoutlaws

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Look at Schuab, I think he'd much prefer an elite defense and good/average WR#s then an elite WR like AJ while having a terrible pass defense and so would most QB's.

No I'm pretty sure a QB with ambition with prefer all round solid team that includes at least one or two elite guys on their team. Also you say Schaub would prefer good/average WR, So are you now saying Boldin is just or average?

Any QB wants a deep threat, a solid possession guy, a solid TE a solid O-line and a solid RB and of course he would want to be on a Team with a defense that can get him back on the field to score TD's with the least deficit.

Look at Manning, Brees, Brady and Rodgers the years they won Bowls. They all had all of the above when it came to a full package. Even the Steelers had a full compliment of the above. Good coaches and coordinators will aim to cover every angle when it comes to their Depth Chart. After all making life easier for the QB means they win games and hopefully Bowls.

tallaghtoutlaws

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Derrick Mason up until this year was excellent for the Ravens. I'm not sure what fast, good WR's are widely available though. You claim an deep guy will help Flacco, and it will, but a deep threat guy would also be a big help to guys like Alex Smith, Jason Campbell, Sam Bradford etc. However I honestly not sure those guys would ever put in the performances flacco has in the play-offs with the talent he has around him. .

And you keep missing my point on what an Deep threat does for a team when they have an already solid guy as their slot possession guy. It also works in reverse having an already excellent deep threat will help any solid possession guy get open. You are asking a defense to cover all angles.

One thing the Ravens have failed to do consistently over the years was hit teams deep especially in the playoffs due to the lack of options. When you hit the playoffs you need that extra edge and that is something the Ravens have lacked over the years.

Chucky the tree

firstly in the play-offs you need a QB who won't play like complete Garbage, for the most part they haven't had that with Flacco. You don't put up the following numbers just becasue you lack a deep threat:

2008(played 3)
44%, 5.8 avg, 1TD 3 Ints 50.8 rating
2009(played 2):
53%, 5.0 avg, 0 TD's. 3 ints. 39.4 rating,
2010(played 2):
64%, 6.1 avg, 3 TD's 1 Int, 90 QB rating, 3 fumbles(2 lost)


Bolidn is a good WR, outside of him they only have average since Mason left. Alos, not sure how I am missing the point on what a deep threat does. I know exactly what he does, however what he does won't suddenly turn Flacco into Brady, manning or Rodgers.

eagle eye

Chucky the tree wrote: »

firstly in the play-offs you need a QB who won't play like complete Garbage, for the most part they haven't had that with Flacco. You don't put up the following numbers just becasue you lack a deep threat:

2008(played 3)
44%, 5.8 avg, 1TD 3 Ints 50.8 rating
2009(played 2):
53%, 5.0 avg, 0 TD's. 3 ints. 39.4 rating,
2010(played 2):
64%, 6.1 avg, 3 TD's 1 Int, 90 QB rating, 3 fumbles(2 lost)


Bolidn is a good WR, outside of him they only have average since Mason left. Alos, not sure how I am missing the point on what a deep threat does. I know exactly what he does, however what he does won't suddenly turn Flacco into Brady, manning or Rodgers.

Yeah but you started off in this thread saying he was a bust. While I'm not a huge fan he is nowhere near a bust. He is just an average QB for me, nothing special but good enough to start all the same.

Chucky the tree

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah but you started off in this thread saying he was a bust. While I'm not a huge fan he is nowhere near a bust. He is just an average QB for me, nothing special but good enough to start all the same.

If I select a QB 18th overall I'm not happy if he turns out to be average, to me that is a bust.

Danger_dave1

1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Tom Brady
3. Peyton Manning
4. Philip Rivers
5. Drew Brees
6. Ben Rothlesberger

Thats easy there the best that league has to offer


I'd put Schaub and Flacco in the same skill set. Both QB's have good quality's and both have limitations. However come playoff time I'd want Flacco. I just can't see Schaub being anything but a solid QB who gets good regular season stats with a good offense and crumbles in the play offs ( provided the Texans make it to the play offs)

Flacco on the other hand ye look at his stats in the post season. I can show you some of Big Ben's play off stats and look how many rings he has. Its about making the big play's in the big games. Look at Schaub against the Raiders this year passing it to a raiders defensive back at the end of the 4th quarter losing the game for the Texan's.

For me yes he hasn't played great but as tallaght said some of the plays the Ravens call on offense are mental !

matthew8

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If I select a QB 18th overall I'm not happy if he turns out to be average, to me that is a bust.

If you think he's average, then it's a disappointment, not a bust. Busts don't start for teams and lead them to the playoffs. Out of interest, do you consider the vast majority of players drafted in the middle of the first round to be busts? Because the vast majority turn out average.

Chucky the tree

matthew8 wrote: »

If you think he's average, then it's a disappointment, not a bust. Busts don't start for teams and lead them to the playoffs. Out of interest, do you consider the vast majority of players drafted in the middle of the first round to be busts? Because the vast majority turn out average.

Fair enough, didn't think the bust label would be that big of a talking point so I'm happy to accept Flacco isn't a bust but a big disappointment and a very average QB instead.

Syferus

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Fair enough, didn't think the bust label would be that big of a talking point so I'm happy to accept Flacco isn't a bust but a big disappointment and a very average QB instead.

Oh dear. :pac:

Paully D

Great performance from Flacco last night, I never doubted him :pac:

Seriously though, he just needs to get that consistency. Chances are he could go out and have an awful game next weekend. Hopefully that's not the case though