Palestinian UN membership

laoch na mona

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/palestinians-seek-more-un-places-526632.html
Surely this can only be seen as a positive step. At least america failed to block it hopefully they get full membership soon

Boulevardier

Does anyone know how Ireland voted on the admission of Palestine to Unesco?

Fishooks12

We voted in favour

Thrill

'Hackers' cut Palestinian phone and internet systems


The main phone network in the West Bank and Gaza has suffered a sustained attack by computer hackers, the Palestinian Authority (PA) says.


It says most of the Palestinian territory has lost internet service.
PA spokesman Ghassan Ghattib said the attacks started in the morning and came from multiple sources around the world.


He said he did not know if the hacking was linked to the Palestinian leadership's successful bid to get membership of Unesco on Monday.


The move by the UN's cultural and scientific organisation was strongly criticised by Israel and the United States.


The US immediately announced it was cutting off all of its funding to UN body.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15542820

Coincidence?

ILikeBananas

Fishooks12 wrote: »

We voted in favour

Wow, I'm amazed. I would have thought that the government would have been afraid of incurring the wrath of the USA (the British abstained).

Thrill

Israel to temporarily halt transfer of funds to Palestinian Authority after UNESCO granted Palestinians membership.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu orders building of 2,000 new housing units, mainly in East Jerusalem


REUTERS and Sky



Looks like payback to me. Israel did warn of consequences if the Palestinians pushed for UN membership



.

laoch na mona

to be fair to them gilmore came out a while ago saying we would support them

cyberhog

For those interested, the full vote tally is here.

http://humanprovince.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/unesco-palestine/

14 member states voted "No"

Australia, Canada, Czech Republic, Germany, Israel, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Palau, Panama, Samoa, Solomon Islands, Sweden, United States of America, Vanuatu.

newmug

I cant believe that many countries voted no. Whats wrong with people?:mad:

the_syco

Since the USA is more or less the UN's army, I wonder who will step in if the UN deems Palestine needs help?

humanji

the_syco wrote: »

Since the USA is more or less the UN's army, I wonder who will step in if the UN deems Palestine needs help?

If that question is ever asked, the Us and Israel will say that they don't need help and there'll be nothing that anyone can do about it.

opinionated3

newmug wrote: »

I cant believe that many countries voted no. Whats wrong with people?:mad:

Could never understand the irish preoccupation with palestine. They are a predominantly islamic population that if given independence will automatically side with iran and other radical islamic nations and denounce the rest of us including us 'sympathetic' irish as infidels and non believers. Personally I find the irish government position embarrassing and represents a certain percentage of population only.....it certainly does not represent my position nor of others I know. Would love to see a peaceful solution to the middle east question but when you have radicals and terrorists running the asylum what hope is there.

sensibleken

Oh look. Israel to build 2,000 more houses illegally in the west bank.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1101/mideast.html

how delightfully predictable.

"These measures were agreed by the Forum of Eight ... as punishment after the vote at UNESCO,"

says it all really

humanji

opinionated3 wrote: »

Could never understand the irish preoccupation with palestine. They are a predominantly islamic population that if given independence will automatically side with iran and other radical islamic nations and denounce the rest of us including us 'sympathetic' irish as infidels and non believers. Personally I find the irish government position embarrassing and represents a certain percentage of population only.....it certainly does not represent my position nor of others I know. Would love to see a peaceful solution to the middle east question but when you have radicals and terrorists running the asylum what hope is there.

1) The Palestinian people are being oppressed by a more powerful authority. This is similar to Ireland and Britain back int he day, so it's not surprising that comparisons would be made and Irish people would feel for the Paletinians.

2) The Paelstinian people are being oppressed and I'd have thought the moral thing to do would be to stick up for them.

3) How do you know they will automatically become a radical Islamic country?

4) I'd say you are in the minority of people who don't feel for them. That's just my opinion, but as pointed out in point 1, we have a lot in common with them and it would, to me, seem abnormal not to be able to relate.

opinionated3

humanji wrote: »

opinionated3 wrote: »

Could never understand the irish preoccupation with palestine. They are a predominantly islamic population that if given independence will automatically side with iran and other radical islamic nations and denounce the rest of us including us 'sympathetic' irish as infidels and non believers. Personally I find the irish government position embarrassing and represents a certain percentage of population only.....it certainly does not represent my position nor of others I know. Would love to see a peaceful solution to the middle east question but when you have radicals and terrorists running the asylum what hope is there.

1) The Palestinian people are being oppressed by a more powerful authority. This is similar to Ireland and Britain back int he day, so it's not surprising that comparisons would be made and Irish people would feel for the Paletinians.

2) The Paelstinian people are being oppressed and I'd have thought the moral thing to do would be to stick up for them.

3) How do you know they will automatically become a radical Islamic country?

4) I'd say you are in the minority of people who don't feel for them. That's just my opinion, but as pointed out in point 1, we have a lot in common with them and it would, to me, seem abnormal not to be able to relate.

Point 1....agreed. Point 2...I agree that their oppression exists and has done for a long time. However I am reluctant to 'Stick up' for a nation ruled by a terrorist organisation that lists the destruction of a neighbouring nation in its charter. Point 3...modern islam seems to be systematically enforcing a policy of allah before all things including your country. I think it is not unreasonable to expect that hamas ,if retained in power, would seek to align themselves with fellow islamic fundamentalists ie iran. What would that lead to I wonder...? Point 4 .....yep I would acknowledge that I am in a minority. However I dont need gilmore or others of his ilk to tell me how I should feel towards another nation. Where is the irish sympathy when a palestinian terrorist decides to blow himself up in a tel aviv marketplace? For years we deplored ira actions in britain....canary wharf, warrington etc...if we display our empathy with palestine surely we can do same when israeli civilians are the victims?.

humanji

opinionated3 wrote: »

Point 2...I agree that their oppression exists and has done for a long time. However I am reluctant to 'Stick up' for a nation ruled by a terrorist organisation that lists the destruction of a neighbouring nation in its charter.

Don't stick up for the leaders. Stick up for the civilians caught up in the middle (both Israeli and Palestinian).

See, you have to take the killing out of the equation for a second. Both sides have committed atrocities, so they are both wrong in that regard. But if you take the basic problem that one group is forcing another group off of their land and the 2nd group aren't able to stand up for themselves. Think of a schoolyard bully beating up a weedy kid. It doesn't matter if the weedy kid's parents are horrible people, there's still a kid suffering.

Remember that Israel's policy towards Palestine is to wipe them out slowly with settlements. They both want to achieve similar goals and have no regard for the people who are suffering.

Point 3...modern islam seems to be systematically enforcing a policy of allah before all things including your country. I think it is not unreasonable to expect that hamas ,if retained in power, would seek to align themselves with fellow islamic fundamentalists ie iran. What would that lead to I wonder...?

But there are many Islamic countries that don't condemn everyone else as infidels and want to wipe them out. There's always a possibility that Palestine could be ruled by a fanatic, but is that a reason to remove peoples freedom to choose? Should I keep you caged up in case you take up a stance that I don't agree with?

Point 4 .....yep I would acknowledge that I am in a minority. However I dont need gilmore or others of his ilk to tell me how I should feel towards another nation. Where is the irish sympathy when a palestinian terrorist decides to blow himself up in a tel aviv marketplace? For years we deplored ira actions in britain....canary wharf, warrington etc...if we display our empathy with palestine surely we can do same when israeli civilians are the victims?.

We do display our empathy with Israeli victims. But you have to admit that when Palestinian terrorists kill Israeli civilians, Israel is fairly quick to kill Palestinian civilians in retaliation. It's harder to feel empathy for someone who commits an equal crime.

As for Gilmore, he's an elected representative. It's his job to do what the majority feel. You don't have to agree with the Palestinian people's choice in leadership, but you should at least allow them the chance to make a better future for themselves.

wes

Pretty ridiculous reaction from the US (who we should remember claims are not taking sides in the conflict as a impartial mediator), surely the US who claim to be impartial will punish Israel for the further violent colonial expansion? Of course we know the US will do nothing and continue to lie and claim there impartial, while ensuring the conflict will get worse due to there actions.

Its also sad that UNESCO will lose money due to the US and Canada absurd opposition to a Palestinisn state. Yes, I know both claim otherwise, but there actions show them to be clearly and blatantly lieing in that regard. They clearly support settlement expansion IMHO, as nothing is ever done about it.

laoch na mona

its said that oppression is still Us and Israeli policy

The Saint

opinionated3 wrote: »

Point 3...modern islam seems to be systematically enforcing a policy of allah before all things including your country. I think it is not unreasonable to expect that hamas ,if retained in power, would seek to align themselves with fellow islamic fundamentalists ie iran. What would that lead to I wonder...?

You've never been to the oPt or met a Palestinian, have you? I'd be surprised if you've ever spoken to a Muslim or an Arab given your attitude.

Hamas are in control of Gaza, barely, not to mention the internal fractures within the organisation.

Also, the majority of Palestinians live in the West Bank under the control of Fatah. I'm not sure why you are equating all of Palestine with Hamas. Furthermore, the relationship between Hamas and Iran is more a matter of mutual self-interests than any true kindred partnership. This was nicely illustrated when Iran cut funding to Hamas for its refusal to publicly support Assad in Syria. By supporting Assad, Hamas would have alienated even more Palestinians but by not supporting him they faced punitive action from Iran. They made a strategic calculation that popular political support was more important than sucking up to Assad and pleasing Iran. Furthermore, Abbas is not terribly fond of Iran for its attempted meddling in Palestinian internal affairs.

opinionated3 wrote: »

Point 4 ..... For years we deplored ira actions in britain....canary wharf, warrington etc...if we display our empathy with palestine surely we can do same when israeli civilians are the victims?.

Supporting Palestinian self-determination and deploring terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians are not mutually exclusive. Intentional attacks against Israeli civilians is a war crime and those responsible should be held accountable.

Anyway, all of this has little to do with the topic at hand.

JustinDee

humanji wrote: »

1) The Palestinian people are being oppressed by a more powerful authority. This is similar to Ireland and Britain back int he day, so it's not surprising that comparisons would be made and Irish people would feel for the Paletinians

Pass the bucket...
The Irish republican movement and the Palestinian movement link goes no further back than the early 70s when the link was strongest. Before that, nobody gave a stuff about Palestine that was in the 20th Century occupied by Turkey, then run by Britain, then split up for occupiers Jordan, Syria and Egypt where ethnic Palestinians were treated equally as badly.

humanji wrote: »

2) The Paelstinian people are being oppressed and I'd have thought the moral thing to do would be to stick up for them

To a degree. You cannot justify the actions of Hamas and the splinter 'seperatist' groups operating on its turf and abroad however.

humanji wrote: »

How do you know they will automatically become a radical Islamic country?

First to happen would be another civil war between the shaky 'coalition' of PLO-leftovers, Fatah and Hamas.
Hamas is already an Islamist 'party' and it controls Gaza in its entirety. No opposition parties are permitted to contest any of Hamas' ruling in Gaza.
Elections are still overdue there since Hamas took charge.
And of course, the likes of the putsches that took place in 2006 and 2008 do not bode well either for anyone who dares question their modus operandi.

humanji

JustinDee wrote: »

Pass the bucket...
The Irish republican movement and the Palestinian movement link goes no further back than the early 70s when the link was strongest. Before that, nobody gave a stuff about Palestine that was in the 20th Century occupied by Turkey, then run by Britain, then split up for occupiers Jordan, Syria and Egypt where ethnic Palestinians were treated equally as badly.

I'm either missing your point or you're missing mine. I'm saying that there are similarities with our own history and that can draw people to side with Palestine.

To a degree. You cannot justify the actions of Hamas and the splinter 'seperatist' groups operating on its turf and abroad however.

I'm definitely not trying to justify anyone's actions. As I said in my last post, if you take out the killing part, it's one side trying to force the other out. Now, if the roles were reversed, you'd see a lot more support of Israel as Palestine tried to force Israel out. It's just natural to root for the underdog.

First to happen would be another civil war between the shaky 'coalition' of PLO-leftovers, Fatah and Hamas.
Hamas is already an Islamist 'party' and it controls Gaza in its entirety. No opposition parties are permitted to contest any of Hamas' ruling in Gaza.
Elections are still overdue there since Hamas took charge.
And of course, the likes of the putsches that took place in 2006 and 2008 do not bode well either for anyone who dares question their modus operandi.

But the point is, what is the guarantee that they'll be fanatical extremists, hell bent on destroying everyone else, as Opinionated3 suggests? It's a possibility, but nothing more, as I see it.

laoch na mona

JustinDee wrote: »

Pass the bucket...


You cannot justify the actions of Hamas and the splinter 'seperatist' groups operating on its turf and abroad however.

You cannot justify the actions of Israel either

JustinDee

humanji wrote: »

I'm either missing your point or you're missing mine. I'm saying that there are similarities with our own history and that can draw people to side with Palestine

I'm just saying that siding with the Palestinian side of the conflict was not born out of compassion for the underdog. It was likened to the perceived struggle of the Irish republican ie. following the civil rights movements of the 60s and the 'socialist' terrorist waves of the 70s. Before that, nobody cared a jot. Maybe that changed when people were put out during the OPEC actions following the Soviet-backed surprise attack on Israel by the Egyptians and Syrians during Yom Kippur in 1973.
I'm sure aside from the cause-du-jour type of protestor or fairweather objector out there, there are genuinely concerned folk about. I tend to try and take a step back before jumping on any side as this more than a case of 'goodies v baddies'.

humanji wrote: »

I'm definitely not trying to justify anyone's actions. As I said in my last post, if you take out the killing part, it's one side trying to force the other out

Taking out "the killing part" is not a realistic option though.

humanji wrote: »

Now, if the roles were reversed, you'd see a lot more support of Israel as Palestine tried to force Israel out. It's just natural to root for the underdog

Nothing to prove that point really. Even little old innocent Ireland has bad history regarding Jews.

humanji wrote: »

But the point is, what is the guarantee that they'll be fanatical extremists, hell bent on destroying everyone else, as Opinionated3 suggests? It's a possibility, but nothing more, as I see it.

Nothing they do now suggests anything of an Islamist autocracy doing anything it can to maintain its powerbase??

Nodin

opinionated3 wrote: »

Point 1....agreed. Point 2...I agree that their oppression exists and has done for a long time. However I am reluctant to 'Stick up' for a nation ruled by a terrorist organisation that lists the destruction of a neighbouring nation in its charter........

And what about the larger section of Palestinians not under the Hamas government...?

JustinDee

Nodin wrote: »

And what about the larger section of Palestinians not under the Hamas government...?

They have to deal with Hamas too and that is part of the problem.

Still not read that article I recommended in Foreign Affairs magazine? Outlines very well the possible ramifications of such a formalisation of State.

Nodin

JustinDee wrote: »

They have to deal with Hamas too and that is part of the problem.

Still not read that article I recommended in Foreign Affairs magazine? Outlines very well the possible ramifications of such a formalisation of State.

I'm fully aware of what they have to 'deal with'. The poster did not seem aware of the governance of the OT however.

I read the article.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

And what about the larger section of Palestinians not under the Hamas government...?

Fatah are the political wing of the greater PLO movement, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs brigade is the latest terrorist wing of that movement.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Fatah are the political wing of the greater PLO movement, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs brigade is the latest terrorist wing of that movement.

...yes, I know. Your point?