The Electoral Register farce and How to Stuff a Ballot Box.

bijapos

I worked as a poll clerk for the first time last Thursday, no big secret to how i got it, I applied to the returning officer, had a quick phone interview and was selected. I did it for the money but also because I was curious as to how it worked. But I came out genuinely shocked at how the register is arranged and how simple it is to stuff a ballot box.

I have received two polling cards for the past four elections (Local/EU '09, Lisbon II '09, GE '11 and Pres/Ref '11). I moved apartment in the same complex in early 09 and now get one sent to both addresses. I often heard of dead people being on the register but thought it was some kind of anomaly.

From what I can gather the electoral register is not set before every election but every 5 years or so. If you die in the meantime or move to another house your polling card is not removed, but instread it is still issued. It seems every few years the register is rewritten taking these into account. The cards are issued in the meantime nonetheless.

If you move to a new residence in the meantime you are simply put as an addition onto the supplementary register, when the register is cleaned up you get moved off the supplementary onto the normal one.

You might think that everyone is checked for ID but in practise we were told to check about 1 in 4, or anyone we were suspicous of. Along with this you are dealing with over 600 people on your polling desk so its not as if you are necessarily going to notice the same person coming in twice.

But by far the most serious part is how easy it is to stuff the boxes. You just need the complicity of the person at your own desk:

When we take in the polling card it is not kept, it is ripped up and put into a bag, these are later destroyed so there is no "hard copy" to see how many people actually showed up to vote. It doesn't matter anyway as you don't even need the card to vote, proof of identity and address is enough if you have no card. So therefore the amount of voting cards at the end has no reflection on the amount of people that voted.

So how do you do it?
Over the course of the day you rip, say 30 ballot papers off bit by bit, fill them out and slip them into the box when nobody at the other tables is looking (which is easy to do). At the end of the night at about 21:55 tick off 30 odd names on the sheet which takes about 60 seconds, and there you have it: 30 extra ballots for your candidate! When you consider there was no difference between Coppinger and McGuinness in Dublin West, it makes a big difference.

I was genuinely surprised that it was so easy, and that there are no checks to stop it happening.

So what should be done? Well for starters:

Everyone on the register should be linked up via their PPS number to stop duplication. This would also mean the deceased would be taken off and they would be sent to one address.

The register should be updated before every election or referendum, not every 5 years.

No voting card, no vote. Simple as. The present system is daft.

Photo ID only, we were allowed to accept bills or credit cards as proof.

Voting cards to be kept as a hard copy for double checking.




The above would be a start, the present system is far too easy to corrupt.

schemingbohemia

bijapos wrote: »

I worked as a poll clerk for the first time last Thursday, no big secret to how i got it, I applied to the returning officer, had a quick phone interview and was selected. I did it for the money but also because I was curious as to how it worked. But I came out genuinely shocked at how the register is arranged and how simple it is to stuff a ballot box.

I have received two polling cards for the past four elections (Local/EU '09, Lisbon II '09, GE '11 and Pres/Ref '11). I moved apartment in the same complex in early 09 and now get one sent to both addresses. I often heard of dead people being on the register but thought it was some kind of anomaly.

From what I can gather the electoral register is not set before every election but every 5 years or so. If you die in the meantime or move to another house your polling card is not removed, but instread it is still issued. It seems every few years the register is rewritten taking these into account. The cards are issued in the meantime nonetheless.

If you move to a new residence in the meantime you are simply put as an addition onto the supplementary register, when the register is cleaned up you get moved off the supplementary onto the normal one.

You might think that everyone is checked for ID but in practise we were told to check about 1 in 4, or anyone we were suspicous of. Along with this you are dealing with over 600 people on your polling desk so its not as if you are necessarily going to notice the same person coming in twice.

But by far the most serious part is how easy it is to stuff the boxes. You just need the complicity of the person at your own desk:

When we take in the polling card it is not kept, it is ripped up and put into a bag, these are later destroyed so there is no "hard copy" to see how many people actually showed up to vote. It doesn't matter anyway as you don't even need the card to vote, proof of identity and address is enough if you have no card. So therefore the amount of voting cards at the end has no reflection on the amount of people that voted.

So how do you do it?
Over the course of the day you rip, say 30 ballot papers off bit by bit, fill them out and slip them into the box when nobody at the other tables is looking (which is easy to do). At the end of the night at about 21:55 tick off 30 odd names on the sheet which takes about 60 seconds, and there you have it: 30 extra ballots for your candidate! When you consider there was no difference between Coppinger and McGuinness in Dublin West, it makes a big difference.

I was genuinely surprised that it was so easy, and that there are no checks to stop it happening.

So what should be done? Well for starters:

Everyone on the register should be linked up via their PPS number to stop duplication. This would also mean the deceased would be taken off and they would be sent to one address.

The register should be updated before every election or referendum, not every 5 years.

No voting card, no vote. Simple as. The present system is daft.

Photo ID only, we were allowed to accept bills or credit cards as proof.

Voting cards to be kept as a hard copy for double checking.




The above would be a start, the present system is far too easy to corrupt.

How likely do you think it is that the person you're assigned to sit with will

a) have the same political view as you?
b) also be willing to go to jail for breach of the electoral acts?

How would you broach the topic? Here bud, I fancy giving an extra 30 votes to billy-bob you wouldn't mind keeping sketch there for me while I tear off 30 extra votes when no-one is at the desk and stamp them when no-one is at the desk and stuff them in the box with no-one at the desk while nobody notices?

You don't seem to have really thought this through.

Zubeneschamali

bijapos wrote: »

You might think that everyone is checked for ID

I've been voting for almost 30 years, and I've never been asked for ID.

bijapos

schemingbohemia wrote: »

How likely do you think it is that the person you're assigned to sit with will

a) have the same political view as you?
b) also be willing to go to jail for breach of the electoral acts?

How would you broach the topic? Here bud, I fancy giving an extra 30 votes to billy-bob you wouldn't mind keeping sketch there for me while I tear off 30 extra votes when no-one is at the desk and stamp them when no-one is at the desk and stuff them in the box with no-one at the desk while nobody notices?

You don't seem to have really thought this through.

Fact is the system is so full of holes it is possible if the two people knew each other and decided to do it. There is no secondary check in place. There are plenty of cases where the people know each other on the desk, Ireland is small enough, a couple of the people I worked with knew each other.

wow sierra

bijapos wrote: »

I worked as a poll clerk for the first time last Thursday, no big secret to how i got it, I applied to the returning officer, had a quick phone interview and was selected. I did it for the money but also because I was curious as to how it worked. But I came out genuinely shocked at how the register is arranged and how simple it is to stuff a ballot box.

I have received two polling cards for the past four elections (Local/EU '09, Lisbon II '09, GE '11 and Pres/Ref '11). I moved apartment in the same complex in early 09 and now get one sent to both addresses. I often heard of dead people being on the register but thought it was some kind of anomaly.

From what I can gather the electoral register is not set before every election but every 5 years or so. If you die in the meantime or move to another house your polling card is not removed, but instread it is still issued. It seems every few years the register is rewritten taking these into account. The cards are issued in the meantime nonetheless.

If you move to a new residence in the meantime you are simply put as an addition onto the supplementary register, when the register is cleaned up you get moved off the supplementary onto the normal one.

You might think that everyone is checked for ID but in practise we were told to check about 1 in 4, or anyone we were suspicous of. Along with this you are dealing with over 600 people on your polling desk so its not as if you are necessarily going to notice the same person coming in twice.

But by far the most serious part is how easy it is to stuff the boxes. You just need the complicity of the person at your own desk:

When we take in the polling card it is not kept, it is ripped up and put into a bag, these are later destroyed so there is no "hard copy" to see how many people actually showed up to vote. It doesn't matter anyway as you don't even need the card to vote, proof of identity and address is enough if you have no card. So therefore the amount of voting cards at the end has no reflection on the amount of people that voted.

So how do you do it?
Over the course of the day you rip, say 30 ballot papers off bit by bit, fill them out and slip them into the box when nobody at the other tables is looking (which is easy to do). At the end of the night at about 21:55 tick off 30 odd names on the sheet which takes about 60 seconds, and there you have it: 30 extra ballots for your candidate! When you consider there was no difference between Coppinger and McGuinness in Dublin West, it makes a big difference.

I was genuinely surprised that it was so easy, and that there are no checks to stop it happening.

So what should be done? Well for starters:

Everyone on the register should be linked up via their PPS number to stop duplication. This would also mean the deceased would be taken off and they would be sent to one address.

The register should be updated before every election or referendum, not every 5 years.

No voting card, no vote. Simple as. The present system is daft.

Photo ID only, we were allowed to accept bills or credit cards as proof.

Voting cards to be kept as a hard copy for double checking.




The above would be a start, the present system is far too easy to corrupt.

That kind of crap is why many people believe it should be left to public servants. They take this seriously as everyone should. Every single vote is like a vital legal document and should be treated like that. The process is dependent on the integrity of the staff working in the polling booths and count centres. This integrity should be beyond question.

As regards the Register - FFS if someone is on the register twice would it not occur to them to report this fact. They should report this with the same diligence as when they are left off it. Ever heard of civic duty. By the way the register is updated most years. Unfortunately it is difficult to find people at home when the compilers call so it can be left up to the householder to fill in the form and send it in.

If you are so worried about potential problems with the system will you get your own position on the register corrected.

Don't ever express the views you expressed here to anyone connected with the elections or you won't be let within 100 miles of working there again.

Ellis Dee

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I've been voting for almost 30 years, and I've never been asked for ID.

I voted last Thursday and I wasn't even in Ireland, but someone I trust who looks very like me and shares my political views did the honours on my behalf.;);)

meglome

There's little to suspect any widespread voter fraud but there's plenty to suspect the electoral register is a mess and the County Councils run it with the efficiency they run everything else.

mikemac

bijapos wrote: »

I have received two polling cards for the past four elections (Local/EU '09, Lisbon II '09, GE '11 and Pres/Ref '11). I moved apartment in the same complex in early 09 and now get one sent to both addresses.

Did you report the mistake to the council?
Or sit back, do nothing and now post on boards about the mistake?
Make the system work for you

If people are registering with different addresses, as Gaelige, with different townlands and parishes then all these can cause duplicates.

bijapos wrote: »

You might think that everyone is checked for ID but in practise we were told to check about 1 in 4, or anyone we were suspicous of.

Well you're a local aren't you, you must know a few hundred people in your area. So ID isn't needed for everyone. As you say Ireland is small, don't you know the people in your area? Not everyone but a few hundred?

Everyone on the register should be linked up via their PPS number to stop duplication.

Such a simple idea I don't know why it's not being done

From what I can gather the electoral register is not set before every election but every 5 years or so.

It's never ever going to be perfect and as you've shown from yourself, people are happy to blast the council yet never contact the council to correct mistakes.
I did door to door work on it when Dick Roche launched into it about seven years ago. It's taken seriously OP, your theories of ballot stuffing belong in conspiracy theories forum

Zubeneschamali

wow sierra wrote: »

As regards the Register - FFS if someone is on the register twice would it not occur to them to report this fact. They should report this with the same diligence as when they are left off it.

There is no big issue with being on the register twice, as long as you only vote once.

MadsL

You might think that everyone is checked for ID but in practise we were told to check about 1 in 4, or anyone we were suspicous of. Along with this you are dealing with over 600 people on your polling desk so its not as if you are necessarily going to notice the same person coming in twice.

Good enough for India; why not us - it may also instill some pride/increase the turnout through peer pressure to vote...

anymore

schemingbohemia wrote: »

How likely do you think it is that the person you're assigned to sit with will

a) have the same political view as you?
b) also be willing to go to jail for breach of the electoral acts?

How would you broach the topic? Here bud, I fancy giving an extra 30 votes to billy-bob you wouldn't mind keeping sketch there for me while I tear off 30 extra votes when no-one is at the desk and stamp them when no-one is at the desk and stuff them in the box with no-one at the desk while nobody notices?

You don't seem to have really thought this through.

When I went to vote, there was only one person sitting at the table - presumably the other was on a call of nature, break etc.
Some dead people are removed from the register very quickly.

bijapos

mikemac wrote: »

Did you report the mistake to the council?
Or sit back, do nothing and now post on boards about the mistake?
Make the system work for you

I sent the other polling cards back twice with a note attached explaining my position, nothing was done about it. There was a voter who said to me her husband died 4 years ago, she had sent in the polling card three times, once with a copy of the death cert, another one was sent to her this year. A few others mentioned that people who were deceased for some time were still on it.

If people are registering with different addresses, as Gaelige, with different townlands and parishes then all these can cause duplicates.

This would be picked up straight away, its one place where the register seems to work.

Well you're a local aren't you, you must know a few hundred people in your area. So ID isn't needed for everyone. As you say Ireland is small, don't you know the people in your area? Not everyone but a few hundred?

Its Dublin, and I wasn't working in my area though I knew a couple of people who came in, either way anyone who was asked had ID, a lot had it ready without asking.

It's never ever going to be perfect and as you've shown from yourself, people are happy to blast the council yet never contact the council to correct mistakes.
I did door to door work on it when Dick Roche launched into it about seven years ago. It's taken seriously OP, your theories of ballot stuffing belong in conspiracy theories forum.

I actually sent a letter to the Minister of the Environment and the Returning Officer for the constituencies outlining the above, I'll post up here whenever I hear back.

I dont believe for one minute that ballot box stuffing is widespread, I just said that its surprisingly very easy to do. Making it obligatory that a polling card is produced to vote and that these cards are kept for verification would stop this.

phog

There was a time where all the "parties" could have one person representing them inside the polling station to overview the voting, not sure if this is still allowed or if it happens if it is allowed. It possibly stopped when the ban of having cnavassers standing close to the entrance of polling stations was introduced.

Ellis Dee wrote: »

I voted last Thursday and I wasn't even in Ireland, but someone I trust who looks very like me and shares my political views did the honours on my behalf.;);)

If this is true then I hope someone here knows your identity and reports it, this is as wrong as someone double voting.