DCM- trained but didn't finish. Advice for what next?

Mr Marenghi

Hey,

So looking for some advice.

Blew up bad today at DCM. Followed the Hal Higdon Intermediate II and around mile 14 just blew up. Felt like crap from the 1st mile, difficult to even put one foot in front of the other. Now this may have been down to i dunno, me coming down with a bug or something, I still don't know. But I do know I skipped most tempo/speedwork in the marathon plan. Basically I have a busy job so it was easier to do 8mile run than 8miles tempo, or speed session. In short I think I ran a lot of empty miles, ran my 3 x 20miles runs too slow. So I trained, but just didn't do it the smart way.

So.....I did the training for nothing, DCM has passed, not injured, not sore. Any suggestions what I should aim for ? I have this training that's basically gone to waste, what should I aim for over the winter ? would love to aim for a Spring marathon and correct what I'd done wrong - by done wrong I mean I feel I may have had empty miles, no cross training.

Worth nothing I've done Dublin 3 times and Connemara twice. PB is Dublin 2010 in 3hrs 43mins which was under the Intermediate I plan. Today I set off with the sub 3.30 group and feel it should have been within my reach.

Thanks

misty floyd

I like your attitude, its time to fix what went wrong. Have a read of this thread and pay attentions to tergat's posts. I blew up this day two years ago and this really helped to get things going in the right direction.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=62731934

Well done today, blowing up can bring hunger and focus into your training.Best of luck and dont beat yourself up man.

liamo123

misty floyd wrote: »

I like your attitude, its time to fix what went wrong. Have a read of this thread and pay attentions to tergat's posts. I blew up this day two years ago and this really helped to get things going in the right direction.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=62731934

Well done today, blowing up can bring hunger and focus into your training.Best of luck and dont beat yourself up man.

Just had a glance of that thread u posted... Brillant stuff... Tergats input top notch..

Tks

ray lanigan

i blew up bad at mile 18 in dublin this year,had to walk most of the way to the finish,it just happens sometimes,like sometimes you will have a great run and feel like you could run all day long,i felt like that a connamara ultra this year,its almost a week since dublin and it gave me a good kick up the arse to push harder to do better.dont beat yourself up just push on.

Mr Marenghi

So I'm looking towards Connemara and to try and see if I can go towards 3.30.

I def think I have it in me with the right training. Any advice on my training schedule below ? Anything I should change ?

For instance Tuesday should I just leave it at Yoga, not Yoga and a run ? The "strength" thing at the end is just some basic weights I've been doing, it changes every week what day do I do em but I usually fit them in.

All feedback appreciated.

Thanks

misty floyd

You have quite a few hard days:

Monday long run
Wednesday speed/hill training
Friday tempo (although you've also written 'easy run' for that day)
Sunday MP run

Why not kill two birds with the one stone and do some MP running during the second half of your long run?

Also a 3m or 4m recovery run, for me is a bit too easy. Why not make it at least 40 mins.

ecoli

Looking at your new schedule I think you are going too far the other way i.e you are trying to cram too much quality into a week which is compromising quantity

My advice would be to take the specific MP day out and alternate this between segments of the long run and also your tempo day.

I would also tend to avoid intervals. At 3.30 target the focus should be on developing your aerobic base as such miles are important moreso than speed.

I would keep it simply one quality day during the week and one at the weekend

Steep hills @ moderate effort (10k quickest) with jog back down recovery roughly 1 min to 80 sec in duration at the most. Alternate these with your tempo

You need to start stretching out your easy run days. These are not so much recovery but more easy days so there is an element of aerobic development within them

Also your Long run get creative you can do alot with these, Steady paced run, Progression, 5k Intervals @ MP or even sessions such as the 1,1,2,2,3,3,2,2,1,1 (easy pace/MP) or Some of Tergats sessions like 4-3-2-1 @ MP etc

Be creative but at the same time you dont have to cram too much in make sure to get the miles in during the week also. Try aim for hour long runs on your easy day and aim for 2 sessions a week and you wont go wrong

Mr Marenghi

Great. Thanks guys.

I did find that I ran a lot of high mileage on my last plan and kinda felt like I ran myself into the ground with a lot of empty miles and things like that. I did no speed work, no tempo runs and no cross training/strength work – just a factor of the schedule I had at the time with work etc but deep down I knew better and ultimately paid for it. So yeah, I may have put too many specific sessions into this plan rather than just some easy-ish miles that’d build a good base. So gonna shuffle it around.

One thing though that I’ve never done before, and to be honest I find daunting is doing sessions as part of the long run. Like MP miles in the 2nd half or whatever ? Does this come with the fitness ? Usually I’m just happy getting around these long runs.

ecoli

Mr Marenghi wrote: »

Great. Thanks guys.

I did find that I ran a lot of high mileage on my last plan and kinda felt like I ran myself into the ground with a lot of empty miles and things like that. I did no speed work, no tempo runs and no cross training/strength work – just a factor of the schedule I had at the time with work etc but deep down I knew better and ultimately paid for it. So yeah, I may have put too many specific sessions into this plan rather than just some easy-ish miles that’d build a good base. So gonna shuffle it around.

One thing though that I’ve never done before, and to be honest I find daunting is doing sessions as part of the long run. Like MP miles in the 2nd half or whatever ? Does this come with the fitness ? Usually I’m just happy getting around these long runs.

This is where strength kicks in. The one thing that you need to get out of your head is the "all the work for nothing" attitude from the last marathon attempt. Aerobic fitness is something built up over years not weeks and as such the mileage done through the marathon training plan last time will stand to you again now.

At first stick to Long runs of easy pace, Add a few mid length steady runs after this and this should bring you into a stage where you are able to manage MP segments within long runs. Sometimes believe it or not the change in pace can actually help in terms getting the legs changing paces so as to distract from tiredness and monotony

Progression runs are a way also of introducing transition from easy run pace to more paced runs

Clearlier

Hey Mr Marenghi,

You're getting great advice from ecoli so just a couple of observations from me.

Your plan includes long runs, tempo runs, marathon pace runs, easy runs, recovery runs, intervals and hills so you've got a good mix of sessions but it's not periodised and I'm not of the opinion that the emphasis on weekend running will do your long term development as much benefit as it might.

In following your plan the last time did you do the back to back marathon pace - long run each week? Looking at his training plan it seems they're the key to doing well and if you did do them and it didn't work out for you (as opposed to going off too fast for example) then you might want to change your approach a bit more radically.

I know you're probably a week or two into training already but you might benefit from taking a look at the 'Advanced Marathoning' book by Pfitzinger and Daniels. You have to buy it but the real benefit of the book isn't the training schedules (although they're really helpful) but in giving some basic explanations of the purpose of each run in the schedule. Even at this stage I reckon that you could jump into the up to 55mile 18 week plan. Even if it takes you a couple of weeks to hit the schedule exactly. It uses periodisation which will help you to peak as opposed to the plan you followed and the plan you are following now which looks very like the plan you followed for DCM.

The other advantage of the book IMO is that it provides a better long term base for running. Even though ecoli is absolutely correct to say that you'll have benefited from your training for DCM I think that most people benefit more from P&D given its greater emphasis on aerobic development.

Last note is that assuming that Connemara is hilly you should run regularly over hills. I'm not convinced that you need to do hill sessions although there can be technical benefits if you focus on your form (downhill as well as uphill). You may want to consider adding in short hill sprints (50 - 60m) possibly at the end of your long run when you're tired (but only if you can maintain form).

Good luck.

T runner

Mr Marenghi wrote: »

Blew up bad today at DCM. Followed the Hal Higdon Intermediate II and around mile 14 just blew up. ............ In short I think I ran a lot of empty miles, ran my 3 x 20miles runs too slow. So I trained, but just didn't do it the smart way

Plenty of good advice there from Ecoli, Clearlier and all.

Its now generally accepted that for the long runs to be specific they must be run well within 20% of marathon race pace, closer to 10% in fact. The long slow runs were not helping you at marathon pace because you werent used to that rythm and hardened to maintain it, and your body was not trained to producing the correct glycogen/fat mixture of fuel for that pace.

To simplify things for yourself id change coaches! Hal is a 1970s man.....Douglas/Pfitz are the guys you need as Clearlier suggests.

They suggest long runs with most of the run at 20% of M pace and the last 30 mins at 10%. They throw in M pace runs to the long run every few weeks but nothing you cant handle. You can extend the amount of the run at 10% slower than race pace on any given long run day if you feel up for it.

The 18 week 55 mile schedule looks about right.

One recomendation i might make. You may be feeling sluggish and slow after all the DCM training?

If this is the case it means you have lost strenght and speed during the DCM run up and should address this prior to a new marathon. You will find it hard to raise the speeds in a new program, as they will feel fast. You want to train your systems to cope with a 3:30 marathon and speed should not be the limiter at all.

An alternative is to do the 12 week program with a speedwork phase before it.

4 weeks of speedwork will have you feeling nippy, fast and psychologically well up for a 12 week marathon stint.

Heres an example of a 4 week schedule for you if you feel you need this phase:

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=9254

you should run the 300s in about a minute. The 400s in about 90 seconds.

Do the (once weekly) long runs in this phase as P and D long runs so youre ready to seamlessly continue the long runs when you start the 12 week plan should you decide on a speedwork phase.

911sc

Thanks guys, good advice above.
DCM 2011 was my slowest in 7th marathon. I had done few Olympics, few adventure races and IM70.3, so sure i can manage a 42km run no bother. Wrong! It proved to me that training plans have the structures they have for a reasons, and one pays dearly by taking short cuts. Lesson learnt, time to refocus, listen to experts, and get training in a struture way.