Timing Belt blown - cost to fix?

JTormey

Hi,

I have a 2000 VW Golf, 1.4L.

Was driving along yesterday and the timing belt blew on it unfortunately.
There are about 75000miles on the clock, and the belt was replaced at 50000, so didnt think it was due for replacement...
Luckily, there isnt much damage - belt didnt come off, just the tensioner had weakened...

Anyway, just wondering if anyone knows approx price to get this fixed?

Thanks

johnayo

JTormey wrote: »

Hi,

I have a 2000 VW Golf, 1.4L.

Was driving along yesterday and the timing belt blew on it unfortunately.
There are about 75000miles on the clock, and the belt was replaced at 50000, so didnt think it was due for replacement...
Luckily, there isnt much damage - belt didnt come off, just the tensioner had weakened...

Anyway, just wondering if anyone knows approx price to get this fixed?

Thanks[/QUOTE
Did the engine cut-out. Is it still starting?

George Dalton

The usual reason for belt failure on these is the camshaft seizing in its carrier. If this has happened then it will mean a lot of money as the camshaft and cam box will need to be replaced. New that will cost you almost €700 before you even think about any of the other engine damage. You may be lucky and find a good secondhand one.

To repair the actual damage caused by the timing slipping is impossible to predict until the extent of the damage is known. Very often a total belt failure results in less damage than the timing slipping and the engine continuing to run as seems to have happened in your case. The last 1.4 16v I saw that slipped the timing rather than broke the belt bent 12 of the 16 valves. The last one that snapped the belt only needed 4 or 5 valves.

The other problem is that these engines aren't the greatest VW ever made to put is mildly so when you take the cylinder head off to replace the bent valves you will most likely find that the valve guides are completely shot as well and need replacing. Then it is good practice to reseat the remaining valves and fit new valve stem seals. Turning attention to the bottom end then the piston rings will more than likely be completely stuck and gummed up so it is a good idea to hone the cylinders and fit new rings.

With that lot done the engine will be as good as new but even assuming the cam and cam box are ok you will still spend €1200-1500 depending on how many valves need replacing and how much work the head needs in terms of valve guides etc.

Be careful of someone offering you a cheap fix on this. Anything that seems to good to be true generally is. With a situation like yours with the 1.4 engine we would not do the job unless we were given the go ahead to do the whole lot from top to bottom as described above. I learned the hard way about trying to get away with doing the bare minimum to them.

JTormey

Hi again,

Johnayo - the engine cut out, and won't start...

George - Thanks for the reply. That is lots of helpful info.
Only thing is, I wouldn't imagine the car is worth a lot more than that amount. I'd have a thought a 00 Golf with 75k isnt worth a lot more than 2000 euro, although I havent checked...

promethius

i had to replace my engine in one of these cars recently, they seem to die for different reasons quite a bit. took a long time to find one. hope it works out ok

George Dalton

No it is not even worth €2000 and that is the unfortunate situation you find yourself in. So you either cut your losses and buy something else or you spend the money and keep the car so you get the value back out of spending the money.

All of this assumes the worst by the way. You could be very lucky and get away with just fitting a new belt and resetting the timing. But if that turns out to be the case then go buy yourself a lotto ticket as you are a lucky man!

Zelkova

I had the same thing a couple of years ago. I let the engine dry up of oil in my case. Same car as you but with 100,000 miles done. I was going about 30mph when it occurred.
Brought it to the nearest mechanic and typically he suggested to scrap it. I insisted he do the work even without guarantee he'd cure it.
All the pistons had blown. Cost €900 and was in the shop for a week. Well worth it. She now has over 148,000 miles behind her and my regular mechanic believes she'll get to 200,000 with ease.

Celtic Mech

I believe the 1.4L engine is an interference fit....timing belt going in these can be huge costs. As previously stated above, you wont actually know the damage until the covers are stripped off and it can be assessed internally. I hope you dont have too much damage. With some luck you may not have any bent valves etc. Fingers crossed.

johnayo

JTormey wrote: »

Hi again,

Johnayo - the engine cut out, and won't start...

George - Thanks for the reply. That is lots of helpful info.
Only thing is, I wouldn't imagine the car is worth a lot more than that amount. I'd have a thought a 00 Golf with 75k isnt worth a lot more than 2000 euro, although I havent checked...

The reason i asked if it cut-out , is that it has almost certainly done damage.
As you are gathering by now, there is no way of knowing what it will cost until it is stripped down.
Only you can decide if it is worth spending the money on it.

dr.fuzzenstein

JTormey wrote: »

Hi again,

Johnayo - the engine cut out, and won't start...

If you have tried to start it after the belt has slipped/snapped, you've probably made it worse.

Nissan doctor

Avoid any garage telling that the whole lot has to be stripped down to see what damage is done, they either don't have the correct diagnistic equipment or are trying to rope you into a labour bill even it it turns out to be damaged beyond what you are willing to pay.

15-20 mins without stripping anything more then the spark plugs will tell you exactly what damage has been done.

firefly08

15-20 mins without stripping anything more then the spark plugs will tell you exactly what damage has been done.

Just out of curiosity, how do you do that?

dr.fuzzenstein

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Avoid any garage telling that the whole lot has to be stripped down to see what damage is done, they either don't have the correct diagnistic equipment or are trying to rope you into a labour bill even it it turns out to be damaged beyond what you are willing to pay.

15-20 mins without stripping anything more then the spark plugs will tell you exactly what damage has been done.

How, mini camera? Would like to know, just curious.
It would be easy enough to miss a bent valve stem like that and wouldn't give enough of a clue about the bores or the big end bearings.
I suppose it's the cheaper way of doing things, but probably riskier, the other way is more expensive, with a better chance of success.
If it's a cheap car, probably worth a punt doing the absolute minimum, but there could be problems down the road.

SouperComputer

borescope and/or leakdown test or simply apply compressed air to each cylinder and listen. Bent valves don't seat too good!

Nissan doctor

firefly08 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, how do you do that?

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

How, mini camera? Would like to know, just curious.
It would be easy enough to miss a bent valve stem like that and wouldn't give enough of a clue about the bores or the big end bearings.
I suppose it's the cheaper way of doing things, but probably riskier, the other way is more expensive, with a better chance of success.
If it's a cheap car, probably worth a punt doing the absolute minimum, but there could be problems down the road.

A leakdown test will tell you straight away of you have pressure loss from any cylinder, listening for air at the exhaust tailpipe or the throttle body will tell you which valves are bent. You would then use the borescope to check if any pieces of the valve have broken off or if there is any damage to the piston crown. Replacement valve are relitivly cheap for common engines like the vag 1.4 so the exact amount of valves bent would not be a huge factor in the overall price of repair.

Unless the engine was at maximum RPM or a piece of something has broken off inside the cylinder then there would be no reason for any damage to have been caused to the cylinder bore or big end bearings by a timing belt failure. The vast majority of failures happen at low rpm or on start up.

The likes of valve stem seals should always be replaced when rebuilding a head as a matter of good practice.

E39MSport

I always have to sit down when trying to picture the potential damamge when the belt snaps. (I know, I know)

This vid has a good demo about 45 secs in. Aside from that it sucks (except the chick in the Jeep).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0PHG88NW68

E39MSport

E39MSport wrote: »

...............

This vid .............

70% of vehicles with timing belts have them

JTormey

Thanks for the replies.

SouperComputer

Nissan doctor wrote: »

A leakdown test will tell you straight away of you have pressure loss from any cylinder, listening for air at the exhaust tailpipe or the throttle body will tell you which valves are bent. You would then use the borescope to check if any pieces of the valve have broken off or if there is any damage to the piston crown. Replacement valve are relitivly cheap for common engines like the vag 1.4 so the exact amount of valves bent would not be a huge factor in the overall price of repair.

A little OT, but does it not constantly baffle you how so many garages dont seem to know this. I'm not even a mechanic by trade!

L-M

RoverJames wrote: »

70% of vehicles with timing belts have them

Have interference engines.

dr.fuzzenstein

E39MSport wrote: »

I always have to sit down when trying to picture the potential damamge when the belt snaps. (I know, I know)

This vid has a good demo about 45 secs in. Aside from that it sucks (except the chick in the Jeep).

She can kick my tire any day!

Nissan doctor

SouperComputer wrote: »

A little OT, but does it not constantly baffle you how so many garages dont seem to know this. I'm not even a mechanic by trade!

To say its a pet peeve of mine is an understatement!:mad:

livingthedream

Hi,

Mk 4 petrol golfs are steaming piles of excrement... The diesels seem ok though.

My wife has one ('01 1.4 CL with 70k miles), which I always service myself at least on schedule if not ahead of schedule and it still has suffered from a ridiculous number of issues incl a new gearbox after approx 35000 miles (bearing issue), 2 new clutches, sheared gearstick linkage, bolts stripped on engine mount, engine thermostat housing replaced because it's plastic threads stripped while replacing a faulty thermostat....... the list goes on.

I am continually shocked by the shoddy build quality of the components on this car... The pulleys/tensioners for the timing belt are renowned for giving up the ghost so not surprised (but sorry) to hear your story...

Fortunately I am reasonably handy with the spanners so I can sort most things relatively cheaply. We are only holding on to the car because it's sale value isn't enough to make a replacement viable.

Unfortunately a timing failure is usually expensive to repair and may not even be worth the hassle to be honest given the cars value....

Nissan doctor

livingthedream wrote: »

Hi,

Mk 4 petrol golfs are steaming piles of excrement... The diesels seem ok though.

My wife has one ('01 1.4 CL with 70k miles), which I always service myself at least on schedule if not ahead of schedule and it still has suffered from a ridiculous number of issues incl a new gearbox after approx 35000 miles (bearing issue), 2 new clutches, sheared gearstick linkage, bolts stripped on engine mount, engine thermostat housing replaced because it's plastic threads stripped while replacing a faulty thermostat....... the list goes on.

I am continually shocked by the shoddy build quality of the components on this car... The pulleys/tensioners for the timing belt are renowned for giving up the ghost so not surprised (but sorry) to hear your story...

Fortunately I am reasonably handy with the spanners so I can sort most things relatively cheaply. We are only holding on to the car because it's sale value isn't enough to make a replacement viable.

Unfortunately a timing failure is usually expensive to repair and may not even be worth the hassle to be honest given the cars value....

The timing belt failures only happen if the belt has not been changed at the correct scheduals or fitted incorrectly.

As for stripping bolts and 2 clutches in 70k, incorrect use of the clutch and inexperienced/incompetant mechanics caused those, not VW.

livingthedream

<quote>The timing belt failures only happen if the belt has not been changed at the correct scheduals or fitted incorrectly. </quote>

In most cases I'd agree 100% with you on this but I've heard of many and personally seen at least one example of the pulleys giving up the ghost long before they were due even their first change...

I'm also not saying all VW's are bad, but Mk4 petrol golfs have had very poor reliablity issues.. ask anyone in the trade. No brands are typically exempt from this, look at mercs, for years they were thought of as bullet proof, then they went on a cost cutting drive and for a few years they produced lemons that hit their brand name....
Small petrol engined BMW 3 series have had issues above and beyond what you'd expect from a beemer too...

All these manufacturers produce good cars but every now and then you get a lemon...

Nissan doctor

livingthedream wrote: »

<quote>The timing belt failures only happen if the belt has not been changed at the correct scheduals or fitted incorrectly. </quote>

In most cases I'd agree 100% with you on this but I've heard of many and personally seen at least one example of the pulleys giving up the ghost long before they were due even their first change...

I'm also not saying all VW's are bad, but Mk4 petrol golfs have had very poor reliablity issues.. ask anyone in the trade. No brands are typically exempt from this, look at mercs, for years they were thought of as bullet proof, then they went on a cost cutting drive and for a few years they produced lemons that hit their brand name....
Small petrol engined BMW 3 series have had issues above and beyond what you'd expect from a beemer too...

All these manufacturers produce good cars but every now and then you get a lemon...

I do have some experience with the common problems that cars have and have never seen or heard of a vag 1.4 timing belt failing at less then 4 years old. They fail when they are left for 6,7,8 or whatever years without being changed regardless of the mileage or when the have been changed but the belt hasn't been tensioned correctly or the pulleys torqued correctly, both put excessive strain on the plastic tensioners.

I'm willing to bet that the stripped engine mount bolts and linkage failure all occurred after you had the first job done on the gearbox.

Believe me, I'm the furthest thing from a fanboy of German cars but I do think that faults caused by poor build quality shouldn't be mixed up with faults caused be shoddy repair work or misuse.

livingthedream

Nissan doctor wrote: »

I do have some experience with the common problems that cars have and have never seen or heard of a vag 1.4 timing belt failing at less then 4 years old. They fail when they are left for 6,7,8 or whatever years without being changed regardless of the mileage or when the have been changed but the belt hasn't been tensioned correctly or the pulleys torqued correctly, both put excessive strain on the plastic tensioners.

I'm willing to bet that the stripped engine mount bolts and linkage failure all occurred after you had the first job done on the gearbox.

Believe me, I'm the furthest thing from a fanboy of German cars but I do think that faults caused by poor build quality shouldn't be mixed up with faults caused be shoddy repair work or misuse.

Yup, I suspect the mounts and linkage may have been weakened as a result of the gearbox change, but this was also all done at a VW main $tealer at the time under a 'goodwill' warranty...

BTW, I'm also a big fan of German cars too... mostly BMWs though and I guess I know more about what to look out for in certain models of these than I do VAGs...

Nissan doctor

livingthedream wrote: »

Yup, I suspect the mounts and linkage may have been weakened as a result of the gearbox change, but this was also all done at a VW main $tealer at the time under a 'goodwill' warranty...

BTW, I'm also a big fan of German cars too... mostly BMWs though and I guess I know more about what to look out for in certain models of these than I do VAGs...

Where the job was done has no relevence to quality of workmanship unfortunatly.

Nissan doctor

firefly08 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, how do you do that?

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

How, mini camera? Would like to know, just curious.

Took a few pics of testing for damage on a VAG 1.4 with a failed belt tensioner to give you you a better picture of what's involved.

This car arrived earlier in the week and after talking with the customer on the phone today...it turns out its the OP's golf:)

The gauge reads in and around 80% pressure loss from each cylinder. The damaged valves are mostly on the intake side but due to the fact that all cylinders are effected and that the 1.4 is prone to valve issues anyway, I'd always replace all 16 valves when doing these engines.

I tried to upload the pictures from the bore scope but the usb connection on it seems to be on the blink:mad: