Help with deaf student studying maths at 3rd level

LeixlipRed

Hi everyone! I'm hoping someone here might be able to provide some help to me.

I teach at 3rd level and I've a profoundly deaf student in my calculus class this semester. He cannot lipread and communicates through the use of interpreters. The difficulties stem from this. The interpreters have no mathematical background. They are only translating a vague approximation of our teaching to the student. I understand that sign language is not a direct translation of the spoken word but in maths, especially at this level, the lack of exactness is compounding the problem for this student who is already quite weak.

The access/disability office here can only work with the interpreters available to them, i.e. other students who happen to have sign language. But I was wondering if anyone knows of anyone who can sign who happens to have some sort of specific maths knowledge. Even to just meet that person to ask them for some advice would be great or possibly see if we could get funding for that person to train up some of our student's interpreters or whatever.

Also, any advice at all would be appreciated! Thanks

donegalgirl28

First off, I want to say, fair play to you for thinking about this and actually being concerned for the student! Have you spoken to the student himself about it?

LeixlipRed

Have done, but communication is very difficult, the interpreters can't attend impromptu meetings or anything like that. The student is receiving help, it's just more about what could we possibly do to improve that help. We've taken some suggestions on board, like slowing the pace of the class down, etc, but the issues with the interpreters having no maths specific knowledge is really at the crux of it.

donegalgirl28

You can try email the Council of Irish Sign Language Interpreters (CISLI) who may be able to help you? Their email is cisli.ireland(a)gmail.com.

LeixlipRed

Thanks, will do that

Jenneke87

Since I'm Dutch I'm not sure how to translate this word accurately(google turns it into something weird) but we call it a "schrijftolk" or a interpreter who types at spoken speed, so that the student can read it. That way your student doesn't have to juggle with fingerspelling or trying to understand the interpreters attempt to explain in ISL what you're trying to say. Maybe that helps?

Deaf student

LeixlipRed,

I appreciate that you were somewhat concerned about this student that you have in your lectures.That was good of you despite that the difficulties that you had seen it in your lectures.

I did study maths in 3rd level as part of my course. Note that Mathematics is a very visual language to many deaf students, not a spoken language. So they operate in a visual world to construct their understanding and their language as well.

For example, they don't rely on any sounds or words/terms to understand that sounds/words just because they are deaf. So they use quite extensively lot of visual images/pictures to understand & construct it. It access their brain far more quicker than in any oral setting.

If you try and explain Maths to him in an oral setting (lecture) as it simply won't work.

So you're correct with regards to Sign language lnterpreters as they translate from English to sign and vice versa and other difficulties with SL interpreters. I have found most SL interpreters dread maths lectures/tutorials as it goes over their head umpteen times.

Their signing interpreting and their signing back to student becomes slower and hesitant, which implies that they haven't a clue or struggling to grasp with mathematics. There is no sign vocubulary for mathematics except for signs for basic numbers but no advanced signs such as integration or calculus or Alegbra. As a consequence of that limitation of sign language vocabulary in relation to Mathematics, many Sign language interpreters struggle with terminology and also lack of mathematical understanding which will hinder the student's understanding of the mathematic topic itself such as Alegbra or Integration.

Just relying solely on Sign Language interpreting doesn't work for me in lectures for Mathematics because of two reasons:

1. Once they translate the lecturer's words into sign which i understand but when i go home at that night. I forget most of it what SL interpreter had said today/this morning. So it's quite useless. So i opted for an alternative one, which was effective for me so far.

Ideally it would work if interpreter along with a notetaker operator together in class as it would enable any deaf student to retain the content of the lecture via notetaking and the understanding via the interpreter particulary in English/History/any English spoken as Sociology or Economics (heavily based English rather than Visual based). Hence in my view, SL interpreting is more suited to heavily based English subject such as Law or history because of oral or spoken word. Cost/fees would go against it re both Notetaker and SL interpreter.

2. Sign Language Interpreter's fees are quite expensive as compared to any notetaker's fees. Student have to be mindful as regards to their Support grant, which they receive from the Dept of Education as they wouldn't want to use it all up their support grant because of expensive fees that they (SL Interpreter's) command. Some of the students use 50% or 60% SL and the rest is notetaking or vice versa. It all depends on a particular deaf student to see which approach/need suits them to assist them in their learning.

Please note that there were huge cuts in support grant in the last few years which forced some of the deaf student/s to re- consider their needs in the context of their support grant budget.

3. Maths is a visual langauge to many deaf students & lack of Math vocabulary in sign language along with lack of mathemtical background that many interpreters have will hinder the learning and the progress of understanding mathematics further for any deaf student in question.

Tips:

a) Try and get one to one tution with him preferably a post graduate whose background in mathematics.

b) Your lectures notes (if possible) less English and more visual like pictures/diagrams etc.

c) Any maths book with more visual in content would be useful as he would grasp it quicker. I used books before with more visual in content in and also in terms of context as well. It had enabled me to understand it more. Also Internet is a very good resource for maths as well.

If you need any advice or help, please feel free to post it. I would be happy to help you out.

the_syco

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I've a profoundly deaf student in my calculus class this semester.

Does he wear hearing aids and/or can he hear from hearing aids? I ask as there are transmitter & receivers out there that the student may be eligible to get free if they're in full time education. The range of these are good, and you'd (both) be able to wear the transmitter under your jumper(s) to prevent others knowing that it's there.

looksee

the_syco wrote: »

Does he wear hearing aids and/or can he hear from hearing aids? I ask as there are transmitter & receivers out there that the student may be eligible to get free if they're in full time education. The range of these are good, and you'd (both) be able to wear the transmitter under your jumper(s) to prevent others knowing that it's there.

Mod: I think we have to assume in questions of this sort that the question of aids has been dealt with, otherwise many threads will go off-topic onto discussions about aids.

Edit: following pm discussion with the_syco I appreciate s/he is talking about classroom transmitters rather than simple hearing aids. I will start a new thread on this, rather than take this one off-topic.

Ant11

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I teach at 3rd level and I've a profoundly deaf student in my calculus class this semester. He cannot lipread and communicates through the use of interpreters. The difficulties stem from this. The interpreters have no mathematical background. They are only translating a vague approximation of our teaching to the student.

I disagree with you point here about interpreters translating a vague approximation of what you teach. I have first hand knowledge that qualified interpreters are required by their code of ethics to interpret everything that is said. Yes it is not a word for word translation as the structure of both languages are different but interpreters do translate everything you say. You should make sure fully qualified interpreters are used. Contact the following to seek advise;

http://www.bridgeinterpreting.ie/
http://www.slis.ie/
http://www.irishdeafsociety.ie/

SerialComplaint

Ant11 wrote: »

I disagree with you point here about interpreters translating a vague approximation of what you teach. I have first hand knowledge that qualified interpreters are required by their code of ethics to interpret everything that is said.

Is this always possible, given that the speed of the speaker is outside the interpreter's control? What happens if the lecturer is going too fast for the interpreter to cover everything?

Ant11

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Is this always possible, given that the speed of the speaker is outside the interpreter's control? What happens if the lecturer is going too fast for the interpreter to cover everything?

Sign language interpreters work with a 'lag' meaning they will always be behind the speaker when they are translating into sign. It is impossible to interpret exactly 100% of information but good qualified interpreters would mostly be above 85 or 90 % of information depending on the topic and density if the information. Sign language interpreter work differently that spoken interpreters. Interpreters don't just translate word for word from English to ISL as this would not make sense in ISL. There is no exact word for sign. Interpreters have to process what the speakers meaning is when they are talking and make cultural adaptations and develop what the meaning is and portray it visually into ISL. For example if the speaker mention 10 countries in a list very fast, the interpreter may not remember all 10 countries but may use this as a strategy to mention a few of the countries or maybe sign a number of other countries within the EU. Interpreters use strategies like this to keep all the vital information and and let go of the redundant information, as sometimes when speaking we tend to waffle or repeat things etc. This would depend on how specific and important each topic or lecture was. In that example above it would have been ok to not mention all 10 countries if what the meaning of the speakers was the all these countries where part of the EU.

If the interpreter is fully qualified they will be able to judge themselves if the situation is out of control and information is being missed. If the interpreter has introduced themselves to the lecture prior to the class or lecture, this can help the lectures have more awareness and slow down if their getting too excited and speaking too fast. Or the interpreter can ask the lecturer to slow down or re clarify or explain something again. Sign language are trained with a number of coping strategies like the one above to deal with situations where speakers are going to fast. If for example the interpreter could not ask the speaker for slow down for whatever reason then the interpreter would inform the Deaf student of the situation and would try and interpret as much information as possible but always focusing on making sure that the vital information is not missed.

Regarding interpreting maths related subjects interpreters would have to adjust their lag time and stay a bit closer to the speaker so to not miss the important information, symbols or terms etc By doing this the interpreter will be able to portray what the lecture is saying and then the note taker can email the student with notes later in class.

Again I can't stress the importance of using a qualified interpreter.

looksee

It really sounds to me Ant11 that you are saying much the same as the OP. You seem to be putting a positive spin on it but essentially agreeing with the issues that the OP is raising.

Ant11

looksee wrote: »

It really sounds to me Ant11 that you are saying much the same as the OP. You seem to be putting a positive spin on it but essentially agreeing with the issues that the OP is raising.

Well no I don't agree with the OP, I was just trying to esplain what qualified interpreters do. I particularly don't agree with the points that interpreters only translate a vague amount of information. If the interpreter is qualified they will give the same impact of your teaching to the Deaf student as you would give to your hearing students. Also getting students to learn sign language to interpret for the Deaf student is ludicrous, that's the reason there is a professional qualification to become an interpreter. It is now a 4 year degree course in Trinity College.

OP have you considered talking to the interpreter.

Deaf student

I agree re positive spin however qualified interpreters without a background in Mathematics is not ideal in any course that's heavily laden with mathematics content.

They don't give the same impact as they do in other course such as orally spoken, which can be translated into sign or written form such as Economics or history or English.

That's the problem when an interpreter isn't sure with mathematical terminology or logic, information translated, which comes out as muddled, vague or not clear 100%. That is down to lack of mathematical background and also lack of signing terminology for advanced mathematics (apart from basic maths). I think that is what OP raised this OP thread.

Interpreters are very useful in most subjects such as English or History or Law however deaf students forget it when they go home. So it goes back to square one as it's not ideal. However it's good for any communication setting as group meeting or understanding an subject topic itself.

Also an interpreter's fees are quite expensive as many deaf students are starting to realise this. That would eat very quickly into any student's support grant during the year as they would have nothing left in their grant (during the year) which in turn, their support that they would receive would be stopped or reduced in the form of support services.

I know one student whose course was heavy maths based as he stopped using it. He went for notetaking instead and also he asked Maths lecturer to give him notes with visual aspect of it etc.

For example, Sign langauge interpreters fees are based on hourly basis or two hour basis.

Interpreter Category Level Duration Rate
R2 / R2 Generic Half Day €126
R2 / R2 Generic Full Day €252
R2 / R2 High Skills Half Day €152
R2 / R2 High Skills Full Day €305
R1 / R1 Generic Half Day €152
R1 / R1 Generic Full Day €305
R1 / R1 High Skills Half Day €205
R1 / R1 High Skills Full Day €410.

These do not include mileage and travel expenses etc. The info re fees comes from SLIS.

I don't use interpreters at all in lectures as i was quite happy with the notetaking. It's quite cheaper and effective especially when you can bring it home whereas in an interpreted setting, you can't. Also, I have to take into consideration with respect to my support grant monies and ensure that it lasts right up to the end of term year.

I know one student, who was forced to look for cheaper rates after grant had shrunk too quickly. That student has to opt for a notetaker based on limited monies available in the monies specifically allocated to that student in terms of student support grant. It was a drastic move with a reduced support.

At the end of the day, it's all down to any deaf student, who decides to choose what's best for him or her in terms of learning support options and getting the most out of it.

I noticed that the username who started this OP thread, whose account is now closed as you can see it for yourself. So it's probably likely that username won't give a response.

Ant11

Deaf student wrote: »

I agree re positive spin however qualified interpreters without a background in Mathematics is not ideal in any course that's heavily laden with mathematics content.

They don't give the same impact as they do in other course such as orally spoken, which can be translated into sign or written form such as Economics or history or English.

That's the problem when an interpreter isn't sure with mathematical terminology or logic, information translated, which comes out as muddled, vague or not clear 100%. That is down to lack of mathematical background and also lack of signing terminology for advanced mathematics (apart from basic maths). I think that is what OP raised this OP thread.

Interpreters are very useful in most subjects such as English or History or Law however deaf students forget it when they go home. So it goes back to square one as it's not ideal. However it's good for any communication setting as group meeting or understanding an subject topic itself.

Also an interpreter's fees are quite expensive as many deaf students are starting to realise this. That would eat very quickly into any student's support grant during the year as they would have nothing left in their grant (during the year) which in turn, their support that they would receive would be stopped or reduced in the form of support services.

I know one student whose course was heavy maths based as he stopped using it. He went for notetaking instead and also he asked Maths lecturer to give him notes with visual aspect of it etc.

For example, Sign langauge interpreters fees are based on hourly basis or two hour basis.

Interpreter Category Level Duration Rate
R2 / R2 Generic Half Day €126
R2 / R2 Generic Full Day €252
R2 / R2 High Skills Half Day €152
R2 / R2 High Skills Full Day €305
R1 / R1 Generic Half Day €152
R1 / R1 Generic Full Day €305
R1 / R1 High Skills Half Day €205
R1 / R1 High Skills Full Day €410.

These do not include mileage and travel expenses etc. The info re fees comes from SLIS.

I don't use interpreters at all in lectures as i was quite happy with the notetaking. It's quite cheaper and effective especially when you can bring it home whereas in an interpreted setting, you can't. Also, I have to take into consideration with respect to my support grant monies and ensure that it lasts right up to the end of term year.

I know one student, who was forced to look for cheaper rates after grant had shrunk too quickly. That student has to opt for a notetaker based on limited monies available in the monies specifically allocated to that student in terms of student support grant. It was a drastic move with a reduced support.

At the end of the day, it's all down to any deaf student, who decides to choose what's best for him or her in terms of learning support options and getting the most out of it.

I noticed that the username who started this OP thread, whose account is now closed as you can see it for yourself. So it's probably likely that username won't give a response.

Yes I noticed the OP account is closed.

You mentioned support grant, I'm not too sure what this entails? I don't know how it works.

From my knowledge if a Deaf student is in a full time course in 3rd level education, then the student has a right to equal access and the college must provide and pay for interpreters and note takers.

I suppose with regards the maths terminology it is up to the Deaf student and interpreter to create nonce signs that they could use, specifically for the class and for specific terms

Lexicographer

Friend of mine, has sonwho studied computer science and maths, he had a sub titler in classroom, which meant he had notes at end of lecture as well. It involved two laptops, one for sub titler and one for him, they got through deafhear. College paid.

Deaf student

Ant11 wrote: »

Yes I noticed the OP account is closed.

You mentioned support grant, I'm not too sure what this entails? I don't know how it works.

From my knowledge if a Deaf student is in a full time course in 3rd level education, then the student has a right to equal access and the college must provide and pay for interpreters and note takers.

I suppose with regards the maths terminology it is up to the Deaf student and interpreter to create nonce signs that they could use, specifically for the class and for specific terms

Support grant info link:http://www.studentfinance.ie/mp7575/fund-for-students-with-disabilities/index.html

It's usually arranged between the disability officer of any educational institution/s and the student with varying degrees of disabilities. Then that form has to be signed off and sent back to HEA with documents in order to get support grant. Then it's paid out directly from disability office to various service providers in provison of their service.

Access is a bit of a joke at times as it's based on the level of resources not our rights re disability and access as well per disability act 2005.