Tiptronic - the wrong way round?

alanmc

Lads and Ladettes,

I recently had to drive a car with tiptronic gears in it. In this car, you pushed forward for up and pulled backwards for down. This seemed very counter-intuitive to me. Now this may be because I also ride a bike (where you pull up for up a gear and push down for down a gear).

I also remember a Top Gear review (of th X6 I think) where Clarkson was complaining about the tiptronic being "the wrong way round" (push for down and pull for up). I remember thinking at the time "Clarkson you dolt, that's how it's supposed to be!"

Are most tiptronic cars "push for up" and "pull for down"? What do other boardsies think?

I nearly bought a tiptronic Mondeo when I was in the market for a diesel. I'm glad I didn't now. The gear shift would have driven me nuts.

barura

Not being smart, but isn't that easy enough to get used to? If you were driving a manual, you go up down up down up down if it's a six speed.

Joking aside, I always figured tapping forward to mean up. So it never bothered me.

ardmacha

The brake and accelerator both work to push to get "more", so it seems perfectly logical for gears also. Also things like headlight dippers often work pull to dip (less) and push to get main beam (more).

alanmc

barura wrote: »

Not being smart, but isn't that easy enough to get used to? If you were driving a manual, you go up down up down up down if it's a six speed.

Joking aside, I always figured tapping forward to mean up. So it never bothered me.

I'm sure I'd get used to it. But it just seems counter intuitive to me .... from years of riding bikes.

alanmc

ardmacha wrote: »

The brake and accelerator both work to push to get "more", so it seems perfectly logical for gears also. Also things like headlight dippers often work pull to dip (less) and push to get main beam (more).

Must be just me then. Hehehe!

barura

At least you'll be observant having been on that end of the stick!

You only got a licence for cars recently?

HappyHouseWife

The DSG 'box in VAG cars are push forward for up and pull back for down, you get used to it.
Rally cars seem to be the reverse, are there any road cars which have it the rally car way?

the merchant

The earlier e39 bmw's came with forward-up back-down but they reversed this in 2002 (I think). Apparently in the earlier cars it can be reversed with a software update.

Shane732

I do agree with this. I found it took me ages to get used to.

mickdw

For me the natural way would be to pull back to go to higher gear and pushing forward when on the brakes for example.

alanmc

barura wrote: »

At least you'll be observant having been on that end of the stick!

You only got a licence for cars recently?

Good dog no. Fully licensed for nearly 15 years. Just never driven a tiptronic until lately. Stuck steadfastly to buying manuals. But when I was looking for a commuting workhorse a few months back I was toying with the idea of getting an auto or semi-auto.

alanmc

mickdw wrote: »

For me the natural way would be to pull back to go to higher gear and pushing forward when on the brakes for example.

It seems I'm not alone. Yeah, I feel under accelaration, you're being pushed back, so it's natural to pull back on the gear stick.

savagecabbages

alanmc wrote: »

It seems I'm not alone. Yeah, I feel under accelaration, you're being pushed back, so it's natural to pull back on the gear stick.

Likewise under heavy braking you'd be pushing on the stick to slow the car down.

MadsL

Sorry, you are moving the stick all of 10mm, why is this counterintuitive? A manual goes up-down-across-up-down-across-up-(possibly)-down. How are you used to a direction??

alanmc

MadsL wrote: »

Sorry, you are moving the stick all of 10mm, why is this counterintuitive? A manual goes up-down-across-up-down-across-up-(possibly)-down. How are you used to a direction??

I'm used to a direction from years riding a bike (as I mentioned in the OP).

The throw of the shifter is not the issue. I guess it's the position of my hand I find counter-intuitive. I know when I change gear on my bike, going up, I hook my foot under lever and pull. Downshifting, I "push" on the lever.

Comparing a sequential/tiptronic to a H-box is not what I'm on about here. I don't think I even mentioned a H-box or manual in my OP. I merely asked if all/most tiptronics were configured the same way and whether anybody else found it counter-intuitive.

savagecabbages

MadsL wrote: »

Sorry, you are moving the stick all of 10mm, why is this counterintuitive? A manual goes up-down-across-up-down-across-up-(possibly)-down. How are you used to a direction??

As explained, we are talking about intuition. You wont be used to a direction...

What movement would you find intuitive to change up or down?

cornbb

I had a rental with this, it was a bit unusual alright seeing as with a manual box I'd be used to pulling "down" when moving up a gear (unless pushing up and to the right). I imagine its the kind of thing you'd get used to after a matter of weeks though. I don't think there is a single "correct" way to have this though, as we see from this thread everyone has their own opinion. As long as all manufacturers stick to the same convention then so be it.

alanmc

I'm sure it's a hotly debated issue. And I'm sure many a late night was spent in meeting rooms by car ergonomics experts pouring over the various pros and cons.

I'd love to know what the rationale for BMW changing their configuration was?

Just from the few replies here, it does seem to be a matter of personal taste. It's a wonder high end car manufacturers don't offer it as a configuration option. Maybe they do.:eek:

unkel

If you don't like the way it shifts, why not leave it in fecking drive so?

galwaytt

LIGHTNING wrote: »

alanmc wrote: »

I'm sure it's a hotly debated issue. And I'm sure many a late night was spent in meeting rooms by car ergonomics experts pouring over the various pros and cons.

I'd love to know what the rationale for BMW changing their configuration was?

Just from the few replies here, it does seem to be a matter of personal taste. It's a wonder high end car manufacturers don't offer it as a configuration option. Maybe they do.:eek:

Sometimes I think its just one person top up in a company who likes going against the grain and sticks with.

Porsche stuck with that awful rocker system on their cars until they finally went with paddles. Generally speaking from my own experience pulling towards you should go up the box and away from you should go down the box. But thats just because thats the way race cars are.

I drive a Harley everyday, and bought an old Gixxer today. . . .and I have a 93 Tiptronic. . .and I find it perfectly intuitive . .like the bike, it's 'Up for Up' and 'Down for Down'. . . .

lomb

Tiptronic is useful for all of 5 minutes, the car doing a better and smoother job itself in drive. Also Ive often forgot to shift down in tiptronic and likewise up and the car still shifts automatically if later than normal so its still really an auto.

heate

lomb wrote: »

Tiptronic is useful for all of 5 minutes, the car doing a better and smoother job itself in drive. Also Ive often forgot to shift down in tiptronic and likewise up and the car still shifts automatically if later than normal so its still really an auto.

Its a total novelty for most auto drivers! I have buttons on the steering wheel I couldn't tell you the last time I used them.
As regards the shifter being backwards - the human brain can work out how to manage to change gears pretty quickly.

Popoutman

Hehe. On my bike, left hand, push the big lever towards the front of the bike and the front derailleur gives me a gear for going faster. Right hand, pushing the lever to the front and the rear derailleur gives me a gear for going slower.

It's something similar to those people that play first-person-shooters with the x-axis reversed from playing too many flight sims where pushing the stick forwards moves the nose down, and other people think it is natural to push the stick up to move the crosshairs up.

Both approaches are fine, and there are arguments for what's intuitive in car controls. You'd get used to it pretty quickly.

(I wonder is this why Mercedes have their tiptronic as left/right?)

challengemaster

Popoutman wrote: »

Hehe. On my bike, left hand, push the big lever towards the front of the bike and the front derailleur gives me a gear for going faster. Right hand, pushing the lever to the front and the rear derailleur gives me a gear for going slower.

It's something similar to those people that play first-person-shooters with the x-axis reversed from playing too many flight sims where pushing the stick forwards moves the nose down, and other people think it is natural to push the stick up to move the crosshairs up.

Both approaches are fine, and there are arguments for what's intuitive in car controls. You'd get used to it pretty quickly.

(I wonder is this why Mercedes have their tiptronic as left/right?)

Now you say it.... A car with WASD controls = win

MadsL

savagecabbages wrote: »

As explained, we are talking about intuition. You wont be used to a direction...
What movement would you find intuitive to change up or down?

I am used to direction now - as I drive a tiptronic.

Up for Up and Down for Down is intuitive no?

What is intuitive in terms of left and right for flappy paddles??

Tiptronic is useful for all of 5 minutes, the car doing a better and smoother job itself in drive.

err...depends on the car. Mine's remapped so it will hit well above the standard rev limiter before shifting. Manual shifting is much better, but it is nice to have auto when you are juggling a cup of coffee say, or the phone (I know...bad of me)

I love the way the car auto-drops to 1st when stopped at a red light. I got very used to that, I now stall manuals for the first hour if I rent them - they don't pull well in 3rd. I dont see any great avantages to manuals over tiptronics other than dropping the clutch and doing all that boy racer sh1t.


Now Windscreen/indicator stalks - for the love of GOD!!!! Pick a side manufacturers!!

Voodoomelon

the merchant wrote: »

The earlier e39 bmw's came with forward-up back-down but they reversed this in 2002 (I think). Apparently in the earlier cars it can be reversed with a software update.

This is true, I got a serious jolt when driving my friends 02 E39, coming from my 00 E38. Mines forward up, backwards down, but I see why this might be counter-intuitive to most.

unkel

Voodoomelon wrote: »

This is true, I got a serious jolt when driving my friends 02 E39, coming from my 00 E38. Mines forward up, backwards down, but I see why this might be counter-intuitive to most.

I got bored with the steptronic system within an hour of owning my E38. Do you regularly use it on yours?

Voodoomelon

Never.

Only knock her over to Sport mode once or twice a week, but never into manual. Its pointless.