The 20Cent guide to Libertarians

20Cent

Now if you like to discuss pretty much anything online you will most likely come accross a libertarian at some stage. Included in this would be Austrian Economics, Ron Paul heads and "anarcho-Capitalist characters. The strange thing is how common they are online yet you rarely meet one in real life?

There are a few reasons for this.

1. Technology, there is a certain type of nerd who sells something on the Internet and thinks they are 100% self sufficient. They also love code that does what its told, it is obedient, efficient and effective. Why isn't real life like that!
2. Most people online are upper or middle class. Libertarians are almost always people with a comfortable lifestyle and upbringings.
3. Economics: Libertarians love to read loads of economics particularly people like Le Mises, Rothbard etc after reading through all this stuff they think they are experts. A libertarian will always tell you to "educate" yourself because you haven't bothered reading some 18th centurey pamphlet from someone you never heard of. Therfore you must be economically illiterate!
4. There is no libertarian party/conferences/meetings in Ireland so they have no where to meet in real life. Online is popular with them it also avoids the problem of people laughing in their faces at their bizzare views.

Ideology:
There are many branches of libertarianis so you will inevitably have one say I'm not that type I'm something else (some term you never heard of). Any philisophy will have its nuts but the following applies to them all.

The libertarian says that everyone should be free to do whatever they like so long as they don't harm others. People should be free from force and fraud. That sounds lovely at first glance, who would disagree? sounds great. Problem is what does "do harm to others" mean? Smoking in public harms others, if you think about it pretty much everything we do can do harm to others. Also what is force and fraud? It is narrowly defined according to their definitions. Ask them what harming others means you will be surprised.

Most people would think throwing someone out of a bar because of their skin colour would be "harming others" and force but to the libertarian this is totally acceptable. At first glance this sounds like a smear, but you will find that they are all ok with all types of descrimination. In fact they think that all anti-discrimination laws should be repealed. The rights of a business take precedence over those of anyone else. They will argue that a private business should be treated the same way as a private home. So stopping a black person from entering a resteraunt is the exact same as not letting random strangers into your house in their eyes! Ask the libertarian if they support a business banning gay people from their premises, the libertarian will say yes! Then they will say they are for freedom in the next breath.

What is freedom? to most people I suppose it means being able to travel around where you want within reason, pull in at a beach and go for a swim, go hillwalking, eat or drink where ever you want, be free from harassment, discrimination etc. None of this stuff is acceptable to the libertarian, if someone owns the road/beach/hill and bans you from it tough luck. Public parks, hills and beaches would not exist!

Ask the libertarian about Praxeology. This is a study of human nature on which their beliefs are based. Ask them to explain it in their own words. They will say it is so simple it doesn't need to explained or dircect you to a website. They won't put it in their own words because it is so bizzare it can't be done without sounding like a cult member. Libertarianism is highly axiomatic, which means there is a set of rules applied to every issue. Anything outside these rules is wrong and propbably communist. Yet they will claim to be open minded!

Government can do no right, it should be as small as possible. A libertarian cannot even admit that governmant can do anything better than the free market. This is an ideological straight jacket that removes many options when addressing issues. It also results in some incredible claims such as a public health or education system can be replaced by charity.
Racism is only a construct of government if there was no Gov there would be no or less racism.
If there is an eathquake or flood Betty from the local residents commitee is going to dig you out from under tons of rubble more efficiently than the army or professional resue workers.
Child labour is fine for libertarians, why child actors are working or a kid helping out on a farm is the exact same as a sweatshop!

Everyone is a communist/marxist. When you are so far to the right pretty much everyone else is a "leftist". You will be called a marxist communist or whatever for expressing views considered mainstream by normal people. Such as maybe there should be public healthcare for people who can't afford it makes you Stalin to them. This line of thought is particularly tedious but very common. Normal views found in almost all modern western countries are "socialist" to the libertarian. Pretty much every society ever is socialist to them actually.

So thats the brief 20Cent guide to "debating" a libertarian" hope you enjoyed it ;>)
Will ad more if I think of it please feel free to contribute more.
I know there will be some libertarian replies saying I obviously don't understand it and need to educate myself but try some of the above next time one calls you Stalin or chairman Mao because you think poor kids deserve education or healthcare!

Eliot Rosewater

Frankly, anyone who has spent as much time as you obsessing over a particular political perspective should have at least have to come to an appreciation of where people of that perspective are coming from. Your post portrays private property rights in a universally negative light and - more crucially - acts as if there is no good reason whatsoever one would support those rights. I can disagree fundamentally with Left-wing anarchists while still being sensitive of their point of view and understanding of why they hold it. I wouldn't make a post like you did about Left-wing anarchism because I'm not so intellectually bankrupt as to stubbornly ignore all possible merits and arguments of things I a priori disagree with.

So I think, alas, that the countless hours and days you've spent obsessing over libertarianism have been wasted on you: you're still ignoring any possible reasons why normal people like (shock!) you would believe in certain things like individual self-determination and you're still failing to produce any comments that are in any way insightful. Perhaps you should spend less time on your campaign of hatred against a tiny micro-minority on Boards.ie and start looking at things in a more open and undertanding light.

20Cent

Remembered some more thanks Elliot.
The libertarian will always ignore points made usually pick one small comment from a post and discuss that rather than face up to the ugly side of their own beliefs. The libertarian will attribute the same absolutist stance to others that they have themselves. Also they will comment on the poster or act the victim rather than points made.

Soldie

The "Occupy Boards Café" thread obviously got you pretty flustered. Sad, but also hilarious.

Suryavarman

Ok 20cent we are all aware your hatred for libertarians knows no bounds. Was there really a need to start another thread on libertarianism so you could trot out the same old tired arguments only for them to be refuted again and again?

Btw it's Von Mises not Le Mises.

ok ok, we all know this isn't going anywhere