timing belt

ikol_

wonder if anyone can answer i'm clueless about cars. I got a 99 fiesta with 26k miles on it, just dropped it down for service and told timing belt needs to be done, Cant afford it just yet, would it need to be done on a car with such low mileage, i know they can go at anytime, but i usually see people getting them done at 50k or so. is there a age limit on these as well as a mileage limit?

13 year old rubber, water pump etc, could go anytime really, unlikely but could.

Bruthal

Yea age deteriates the belts as well as mileage, so should have it done if it was never done, which it probably wasnt with that low a milage on it.

Nissan doctor

ikol_ wrote: »

wonder if anyone can answer i'm clueless about cars. I got a 99 fiesta with 26k miles on it, just dropped it down for service and told timing belt needs to be done, Cant afford it just yet, would it need to be done on a car with such low mileage, i know they can go at anytime, but i usually see people getting them done at 50k or so. is there a age limit on these as well as a mileage limit?

If its the 1.25 engine the belt is due every 150,000kms or 10 years so your alread 2 years overdue.

It would be a shame to see such a low mileage engine damaged by neglecting the maintenance IMO.

ikol_

cheers for the repsonse, only picked it up myself a few months ago, and brought it down for its service today, need new t/belt and fan belt, which will cost 450, does this sound right.? got a bunch of other stuff done to it today, but will get those 2 done with next months paycheck. hopefully it makes it that far..

Nissan doctor

ikol_ wrote: »

cheers for the repsonse, only picked it up myself a few months ago, and brought it down for its service today, need new t/belt and fan belt, which will cost 450, does this sound right.? got a bunch of other stuff done to it today, but will get those 2 done with next months paycheck. hopefully it makes it that far..

Thats not a bad price compared to what most would charge. Make sure the garage have the required tools to time that engine correctly though.

CiniO

ikol_ wrote: »

cheers for the repsonse, only picked it up myself a few months ago, and brought it down for its service today, need new t/belt and fan belt, which will cost 450, does this sound right.? got a bunch of other stuff done to it today, but will get those 2 done with next months paycheck. hopefully it makes it that far..

3 years back I asked in few garages around about timing belt change in 1.2 fiat bravo, which needed to be done.
Average quote was about €350.
I decided it was way too much, and ended up buying a belt + tensioner kit online for €40 and fitting in myself.
I've never done it before, but got a good guide from the internet and somehow managed to.
Since 3 years went past, and car did about 45k mls. All works fine.
It saved me €310

barura

CiniO wrote: »

3 years back I asked in few garages around about timing belt change in 1.2 fiat bravo, which needed to be done.
Average quote was about €350.
I decided it was way too much, and ended up buying a belt + tensioner kit online for €40 and fitting in myself.
I've never done it before, but got a good guide from the internet and somehow managed to.
Since 3 years went past, and car did about 45k mls. All works fine.
It saved me €310

That's fantastic! And it's not so bad, you can mark the cogs(can't think of a better name for em) against the housing as well before you take off the old belt so you can align them again no problem!

I've also heard of cutting the old one in half and sliding the new one on beside it, then cutting the remnants!

If ikol_ feels up to it, they should definitely give it a whirl.

mbiking123

Hello

I imagine its a petrol engine, I dont see it mentioned but a 1.2 is prob petrol

For diesel its alot more complicated to do timing belt, engine usually comes out

Given age of car and its value, if you get timing wrong or belt goes, bang goes the engine. If you want to do it this may help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAuqOAp72m0

And good luck

David09

If it's a fiesta zetec, 1.25, don't attempt to do it yourself if you haven't done one before.
It's complicated for a novice/beginner and requires the use of special tools.
That said, 450 is on the dear side for a job like that, in my opinion anyway.

sentient_6

If someone starts a thread saying they are a bit clueless about cars, surely suggesting they could attempt changing the belt themselves is a bit of a stretch.

ikol_

yea i think i'll be going with the mechanic on this one, thanks though..

Nissan doctor

barura wrote: »

That's fantastic! And it's not so bad, you can mark the cogs(can't think of a better name for em) against the housing as well before you take off the old belt so you can align them again no problem!

I've also heard of cutting the old one in half and sliding the new one on beside it, then cutting the remnants!

If ikol_ feels up to it, they should definitely give it a whirl.

Trying to mark the pulleys on a fiesta engine will likely end up in a very expensive repair bill!

mbiking123 wrote: »

Hello

I imagine its a petrol engine, I dont see it mentioned but a 1.2 is prob petrol

For diesel its alot more complicated to do timing belt, engine usually comes out

Diesel timing belts are exactly the same job as petrol timing belts.

barura

sentient_6 wrote: »

If someone starts a thread saying they are a bit clueless about cars, surely suggesting they could attempt changing the belt themselves is a bit of a stretch.

Well, at least they know what a timing belt is, and is clever enough to enquire about when it should be changed.

Maybe try and have a look in while the mechanic is doing it? At least you'll then have a bit more of an idea for how it's done (and make sure s/he does do it as well :P ) and maybe next time, if the DIY bug catches you, you can give it a go yourself? It never hurts to know how something is done.

But that's just me rambling at this stage...

CiniO

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Trying to mark the pulleys on a fiesta engine will likely end up in a very expensive repair bill!

I think we started a discussion about it some time ago in other thread.
I still can't understand what's the risk, if you put a new belt exactly at the same position as the last one, according to marks you make on your own.

I recall something you mentioned then, that even the teeth on pulleys match, the camshaft might still be out of timing - I can't really imagine how?

CiniO

sentient_6 wrote: »

If someone starts a thread saying they are a bit clueless about cars, surely suggesting they could attempt changing the belt themselves is a bit of a stretch.

That's right, ok.
But my point was supposed to be as well, that service of changing timing belt which costs €350, can be done by amateur in about 8h using parts which cost only €40.
It took me about 8h because it was first time, and I was more like learning to do it.
Now after I have a bit of practice, I probably could do it in 4h.
Experienced mechanic would probably do in 2h maybe 3h.

I know that it's a kind of job if you do wrong, you blew the engine, and mechanics must charge extra for such risk, but anyway €300 euro for few hours labour seem to be excessive to me.

David09

To take the belt off, you must take off the bottom pulley. This is held on with a big bolt through the middle. Behind the pulley, on the shaft is the cog wheel that the timing belt turns. There are no key-ways on these engines, meaning that once the big bolt in the middle of the pulley is slackened, all is released to move in whatever direction it likes.
The special tool screws into the engine to jam the shaft itself so that it stays in one position and cannot turn.

Nissan doctor

CiniO wrote: »

I think we started a discussion about it some time ago in other thread.
I still can't understand what's the risk, if you put a new belt exactly at the same position as the last one, according to marks you make on your own.

I recall something you mentioned then, that even the teeth on pulleys match, the camshaft might still be out of timing - I can't really imagine how?

Because the bottom pulley spins freely on the crank, so marking the pulley is not marking the position of the crank, also to fit and tension the belt correctly you have to loosen the cam pulleys so they too are spinning freely. The tools required lock the cams in place and also a pin locks the crank in place.

You can mark the position of the pulleys on most cars that have the pulleys locked to the cams/crank on a keyway and woodruff key but that is not the case with the ford fiesta/focus engines or some others like most Renault engines

David09

CiniO wrote: »

That's right, ok.
But my point was supposed to be as well, that service of changing timing belt which costs €350, can be done by amateur in about 8h using parts which cost only €40.
It took me about 8h because it was first time, and I was more like learning to do it.
Now after I have a bit of practice, I probably could do it in 4h.
Experienced mechanic would probably do in 2h maybe 3h.

I know that it's a kind of job if you do wrong, you blew the engine, and mechanics must charge extra for such risk, but anyway €300 euro for few hours labour seem to be excessive to me.

If you have a little experience, mechanically and research the job well beforehand, then yes, you can save a fortune. Also depends on what car you have. Some are tricky enough and run risk of doing damage if it doesn't work out.
Others (like the ford mondeo 08 onwards 1.8 diesel are an utter doddle that a beginner could do, taking only 20 mins.)

barura

If this is the tool here:
http://www.jhmbuttco.com/acatalog/Shop_Ford_1120.html

I think it's a pretty simple piece of kit. 35 quid as well?

I was worried it was going to be like... 100pound or something!

Which the other kit is, whoops!

Nissan doctor

barura wrote: »

If this is the tool here:
http://www.jhmbuttco.com/acatalog/Shop_Ford_1120.html

I think it's a pretty simple piece of kit. 35 quid as well?

I was worried it was going to be like... 100pound or something!

Which the other kit is, whoops!

No-one said it was expensive, just that you have to have it to correctly time the engines.

barura

I know. I was just amazed at the price.

I'll go back to lurking, don't mind me...

CiniO

David09 wrote: »

To take the belt off, you must take off the bottom pulley. This is held on with a big bolt through the middle. Behind the pulley, on the shaft is the cog wheel that the timing belt turns. There are no key-ways on these engines, meaning that once the big bolt in the middle of the pulley is slackened, all is released to move in whatever direction it likes.
The special tool screws into the engine to jam the shaft itself so that it stays in one position and cannot turn.

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Because the bottom pulley spins freely on the crank, so marking the pulley is not marking the position of the crank, also to fit and tension the belt correctly you have to loosen the cam pulleys so they too are spinning freely. The tools required lock the cams in place and also a pin locks the crank in place.

You can mark the position of the pulleys on most cars that have the pulleys locked to the cams/crank on a keyway and woodruff key but that is not the case with the ford fiesta/focus engines or some others like most Renault engines

All clear for me know
Thanks guys.

I never knew that in some engines cog wheel could be loosen from crank.

In my Bravo that was definitely not the case, so that's why I had no problems.

Anyway - looking at prices shown, it would still workout cheaper to buy the locking tools online and do it on your own

mbiking123

Diesel timing belts are exactly the same job as petrol timing belts

I wish it was same price

Toyota Avensis (diesel) timing belt, tensioners service just over €1,000 in Toyota garage. I was told more labour intensive hence the extra cost I was quoted

couldntthink

CiniO wrote: »

I think we started a discussion about it some time ago in other thread.
I still can't understand what's the risk, if you put a new belt exactly at the same position as the last one, according to marks you make on your own.

I recall something you mentioned then, that even the teeth on pulleys match, the camshaft might still be out of timing - I can't really imagine how?

When you spend a few hours doing a timing belt the short cut way and then see that the engine timing is slightly out, then have to re do the whole thing again, then you'll realise that imagining things has little to do with it. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But on a 1.25 fiesta with a tapered crank pulley, it doesn't work.

A 1.25 fiesta is not the belt to start your timing belt career on. 16v and an interference engine = $$$$ if you get it wrong. Also the waterpump can be changed without taking the belt off, if you wanted to leave that expense for later. But better off to do it all at once.

George Dalton

€450 for a belt kit on a Fiesta is a joke. I'd like to see the breakdown of costs on that job. €100 should cover the parts. €150 or so for labour. No need to do water pump with these. It is separate from the timing belt and isn't troublesome on them in any case.

As for €1000 for a belt on an Avensis, I wish I could charge that much for doing them!

Cill Dara Abu

Rip off OP, shop around as much as you can before forking out €450 for a 2 hour job, going by that price that would tell you they charge €200 an hour for labour :eek:, madness in times like these.

dgt

CiniO wrote: »

All clear for me know
Thanks guys.

I never knew that in some engines cog wheel could be loosen from crank.

In my Bravo that was definitely not the case, so that's why I had no problems.

Anyway - looking at prices shown, it would still workout cheaper to buy the locking tools online and do it on your own

In Bravos they loosen from the cam pulley

The crank pulley is on 3 bolts. The crank sprocket goes on one way, on a guide.

Do you have the tools? They were approx £80 from desira

Nissan doctor

€350 is what we'd normally charge and that, in my experience, is about as cheap as you'd pay for a fully trained and qualified mechanic/technician working in a fully insured and registered garage.


Plenty of places out there doing jobs like this for small money, and I've seen so many fords coming in with tippex marks on the pullies and the timing slightly off too!

ikol_

i was quoted 350 for the t/belt and another 100 for fan belt, nothing mentioned about water pump by mechanic, who seemed quite good and very informative.

CiniO

dgt wrote: »

In Bravos they loosen from the cam pulley

The crank pulley is on 3 bolts. The crank sprocket goes on one way, on a guide.

Do you have the tools? They were approx £80 from desira

What engine are we talking about?
I was saying about 1.2 in old (pre 2002) bravo.

I did it without any locking tool.


BTW. Locking tool for that engine here for as little as about €30

Nissan doctor

ikol_ wrote: »

i was quoted 350 for the t/belt and another 100 for fan belt, nothing mentioned about water pump by mechanic, who seemed quite good and very informative.

The auxiliary belt has to come off to change the timing belt anyway so no extra labour involved. Extra €20 max.

CiniO

ikol_ wrote: »

i was quoted 350 for the t/belt and another 100 for fan belt, nothing mentioned about water pump by mechanic, who seemed quite good and very informative.

I think fan belt needs to be taken off anyway while doing timing belt, so there should be no any extra cost for it.
Just for a belt itself, which shouldn't be more that 10 to 15 quid.

dgt

CiniO wrote: »

What engine are we talking about?
I was saying about 1.2 in old (pre 2002) bravo.

I did it without any locking tool.


BTW. Locking tool for that engine here for as little as about €30

Bravo 1.2, I've stripped a few

BTW the tools I have are dealer tools

Did you lock the cams? How did you tension the belt?

ikol_

well as i said clueless, will shop around then to get some prices for both. thanks again

hidinginthebush

ikol_ wrote: »

wonder if anyone can answer i'm clueless about cars. I got a 99 fiesta with 26k miles on it, just dropped it down for service and told timing belt needs to be done, Cant afford it just yet, would it need to be done on a car with such low mileage, i know they can go at anytime, but i usually see people getting them done at 50k or so. is there a age limit on these as well as a mileage limit?

Does that seem very low to anyone else? I have a 98 fiesta, and that odometer only has 5 digits, so is it possible the dial has gone all the way around?

Mines on 93K at the moment, can't wait to take a few pics if it gets back to 00000

ikol_

hidinginthebush wrote: »

Does that seem very low to anyone else? I have a 98 fiesta, and that odometer only has 5 digits, so is it possible the dial has gone all the way around?

Mines on 93K at the moment, can't wait to take a few pics if it gets back to 00000

service book on it is fine, apparently last owner had it from new and only used it for the shops and back, i checked the book and there was less than 1000 miles done on it between last services , i think i put that much on it in less than a month

Nissan doctor

hidinginthebush wrote: »

Does that seem very low to anyone else? I have a 98 fiesta, and that odometer only has 5 digits, so is it possible the dial has gone all the way around?

Mines on 93K at the moment, can't wait to take a few pics if it gets back to 00000

I recon you'd tell fairly handy from the interior if it had 26k or 126k.

CiniO

dgt wrote: »

Did you lock the cams?

No i didn't.
All I did was to mark position on both cog wheels (from crank and from cam).
They were firmly attached to both crankshaft and camshaft.
Take off the old belt and put the new one.
I changed the tensioner as well.

How did you tension the belt?

Hmm normally.
I just tensioned the tensioner to correct position, and screwed it in.

dgt

CiniO wrote: »

No i didn't.
All I did was to mark position on both cog wheels (from crank and from cam).
They were firmly attached to both crankshaft and camshaft.
Take off the old belt and put the new one.
I changed the tensioner as well.



Hmm normally.
I just tensioned the tensioner to correct position, and screwed it in.

When people do without the tools it usually ends in disaster but you seem to have done it right

Jarren

A few weeks back I had HGF in my Seicento ,brought the car to a garage,
was quoted 350 Euros for
New head gasket ,timing belt,water pump .
The other places were much more dearer , starting from 600 (indy) ending on 1100 Euros(main dealers).
And the moral of the story is
Always shop around

Ps sorry about the typo ,I can't get used to typing from a touchscreen phone.

CiniO

dgt wrote: »

When people do without the tools it usually ends in disaster but you seem to have done it right

3 years and 45k mls.
I don't believe it would last that long if there was something done wrong.

Nissan doctor

jarecki1976 wrote: »

A few weeks back I had HGF in my Seicento ,brought the car to a garage,
was quoted 350 Euros for
New head gasket ,timing belt,water pump .
The other places were much more dearer , starting from 600 (indy) ending on 1100 Euros(main dealers).
And the moral of the story is
Always shop around

Ps sorry about the typo ,I can't get used to typing from a touchscreen phone.

Moral of the story, having a head gasket replaced without having the cylinder head pressure tested and skimmed and fitting a full gasket set is asking for trouble.

There is often a big difference between having the cheapest job done and having a proper job done!

Jarren

Nissan doctor wrote: »

jarecki1976 wrote: »

A few weeks back I had HGF in my Seicento ,brought the car to a garage,
was quoted 350 Euros for
New head gasket ,timing belt,water pump .
The other places were much more dearer , starting from 600 (indy) ending on 1100 Euros(main dealers).
And the moral of the story is
Always shop around

Ps sorry about the typo ,I can't get used to typing from a touchscreen phone.

Moral of the story, having a head gasket replaced without having the cylinder head pressure tested and skimmed and fitting a full gasket set is asking for trouble.

There is often a big difference between having the cheapest job done and having a proper job done!

Technically speaking you are correct( cheapest vs proper job done) however the car is only worth 600-700 blips and really does not make financial sense spending more than it's worth it.
Now ,if there will be a HGF again in near future ...?
Let's wait and see
Sorry about the off topic btw,this thread is about a timing belt not headgasket ...

mowhawk

Yawn! Toyota Yaris, timing chain, none of this b***s**t. BTW if you do change the timing belt on any car that has one, after you have finished turn the crankshaft through two complete turns by hand before trying to start it. If you have got it wrong you will meet resistance, i.e. a valve will be hitting a piston and you may start again, if nothing happens, then you may try to start the car. It may still not be right but at least you will not damage the engine.

The reason for turning the crankshaft through two turns is that the camshaft(s) turn at half crankshaft speed, so that, in order for you to complete a complete cycle of the engine (Otto cycle, of if you prefer, four stroke cycle) you must turn the crankshaft through two complete revolutions.