Children or Career

LegacyUser

I'm 27. My boyfriend is 26. He is currently studying for a wonderful fulfilling career and will be in his early 30's when he graduates. He'll be pretty much guaranteed an excellent job. I have a mediocre job. I did do a masters (in a field I have since grown to dislike), and took my current job out of necessity, in order to survive. I have decided that I need to do much more with my life and therefore study a new university course. I found the perfect course, but to succeed in it, it will be highly competitive, difficult and expensive.

My boyfriend and I have been going out for less than a year but both of us agree that this has been the best relationship we've ever had and we love each other very much. I can see a great future together.

We briefly mentioned our views about children. It's heavy going, when we haven't been going out for so long, but it is important at the same time.

He would like two children. Due to my age, he says that we would really need to start trying in the next 5 years at the latest. I personally have never wanted children, but since meeting him, I could see myself having kids with him and I have never thought that about anyone before. He wants a woman who will stay at home with the kids and look after them while he works.

I am so ambitious. I want to be able to do it all, but that seems impossible. I want to be able to study that other university course (it could actually take me a number of years to even get onto the course - and part time isn't really possible). I'm trying so hard to figure out how to make such a choice. I wish I could stay with my boyfriend and do the course I want to do and have children when I'm 35/36 - but he wants children earlier due to the risks. I just feel like my life is over not being able to try to succeed in the career I have recently realized would be perfect for me.

I don't take things for granted either. What if things don't work out for whatever reason between my boyfriend and me?. I love him so much, but it's impossible to be 100% that something won't change. I have to choose between a career and being single or him, children and staying at home minding children - something I never envisioned myself doing. I can see myself having children with him and staying with him, if I can just have a chance of having a career also.

I'm afraid of all this talk scaring both of us away from this relationship, but it's better to talk about it now, than in 5 years time. He hates the idea of a child minder. I wish he could compromise, but I'm concerned about even mentioning this as it would be the end of us.

How do people deal with such a deal breaker? can certain compromises really work, or will there always be hidden resentment? any advice would be welcome.

LegacyUser

If he "hates the idea of a childminder", then why shouldn't HE be able to stay at home to mind the kids? What makes his career more important than yours?
Why should you have to shelve your ambition/job/life, to accomodate his wishes? Surely it would be better for any kids you have in the future to see that their mum is happy, focused, driven& working hard to provide a good life for them. Would it not be more damaging for children to see you depressed& resentful towards them?
Consider couples counselling if he won't budge; you kind of need to iron out these things sooner rather than later.

Tigger99

Tbh id be less focused on children versus career and more on your relationship.

It sounds to me like he is trying to dicate your life, start trying for babies in 5 yrs, give up your future career. It just sounds so controlling, who said u cant have a career and kids, I know that I'd hope to do both.

Fair enough that you'd only have so long, as a woman, to have children, but your post raises serious red flags for me. Your boyf just seems, I dunno, very dismissive about your career future. Grand if that floats your boat, but it seems disrespectful to me.

I just reread your post about being worried that mentioning your fears would scare him away. I know only too well how that feels, but u must be able to talk to your boyf about your fears and not be scared of his reaction, otherwise it doesn't bode well for the future.

I'm sorry if I come across as harsh, but i have bent over backwards far too much for an ex and your post sounds so so familiar.

Miss Fluff

childrencareer wrote: »

He hates the idea of a child minder. I wish he could compromise, but I'm concerned about even mentioning this as it would be the end of us.

:eek: Ex-squeeze me? The end of your relationship if you don't tow the line? So you're saying it's his way or the highway basically? Oh dear....

As Tigger99 said I'd be examining your relationship first and how healthy it is before even thinking about having babies together.

Daisy M

Ok I dont know how to say this but your bfs views/values sound really old fashioned and possibly from a different culture/upbringing. Its unusual for anyone to have such concrete views regarding children that have not even been concieved and a spouse that hasnt yet been proposed to let alone married. It is strange and controlling that he would expect/demand the childrens mother to stay home and never have considered anything else. By the way I have been a stay at home mum for a number of years, a choice my husband and decided on after we had children as we didnt want to leave them with a childminder, so I am not opposed to any mother or father making such a choice but find I find it troublesome that one person should feel they have the right to make that choice for the other.

qwertytlk

Hi,
i agree with the other posters. Why do you have to give up your life and dreams to be a stay at home mum... Why if your partner doesnt agree with childminders, doesnt he stay at home with the kids?

I have just had a baby myself, and while my partner has a job, i was in college when i found out i was pregnant. I had gone back as a mature student, becasue like you, i wanted to do this course that i founf interesting and knew it would give me a career i would enjoy. Anyway, at the moment im taking a year out to mind baby etc, when i go back next year my son will be 15 months old and at the moment the plan is for dad to mind him during the day and work nights.
He cant wait to do this! And when i finish college and go out into the workforce, well we will do whatever suits our family.
Having a child and working or studying is hard, a complete juggling act, but ultimatley i know it wil make me a happier person and a better mother as i will be fulfilled in all aspects of my life.-obviously what you want for yourself too!

So you need to discuss this wuth your partner. You need to tell him how you feel, discss your plans and wishes for the future.
There is no other way to say this, so il just say it - if you camt discuss these things with your partner, then perhaps your relationship isnt as solid as you think? You shouldnt be fearing your parrtner leaving you because your honest with him about what you want.
And if he is not willing to accecpt your wishes and support you in achieving your goals, and compromise on the issues around children etc, then perhaps he isnt the person you should be looking to spend the rest of your life with. I say this because if you do spend your life with someone, and to do that you give up all of your dreams you will just be miserable.

Your best of bringing it up wth him now and if he isnt willing to compromise so that you can fulfill your lifes dreams, well then at least you will find out now, rather than when its too late.

Best of luck

CBFi

my reaction to this would be where's the compromise? you want a career AND kids and why not? you both want careers, you both want kids and a life together so you both need to learn to compromise. Life is never going to be your ideal so I would say to you go ahead and make it your goal to get that course and futher your career. after that, when you are ready, you can start thinking about a family. He will still get what he wants but he will need to take what you want into consideration- the chance at a career. You will only resent him if you are forced to live by his rules.

If he cant compromise, then he's not the ideal candidate for a marriage with you- a modern woman- he needs to find someone from my granny's generation (my Mum has a more successful career than my Dad!) whose life goals are marriage and kids (not a problem just a different life choice)

Sleepy

Personally, I dislike the use of childcare for the early years where it's not absolutely necessary (single parent, not over-the-top mortgage or other expensive lifestyle choices).

That said, I'd have been perfectly happy to be the stay at home parent had my partner had more earning power than me.

Is your boyfriend prepared to put his own career on hold if you happen to be out-earning him when you have children?

Curry Addict

i see you are trying to assess your compatability and look to the future to see how it all adds up. the idellic views of your twenties will give way to more mature, realistic views of your thirties. so dont try to look too far ahead. its early days of your relationship and you two need to grow together and get some real grounding and life experience. the road of life has many twists,turns and challanges, who knows where it will lead ye in years to come.

neuro-praxis

Sleepy wrote: »

Personally, I dislike the use of childcare for the early years where it's not absolutely necessary (single parent, not over-the-top mortgage or other expensive lifestyle choices).

That said, I'd have been perfectly happy to be the stay at home parent had my partner had more earning power than me.

Is your boyfriend prepared to put his own career on hold if you happen to be out-earning him when you have children?

Neither career should be given the heave-ho just because it's not a huge earner. I work in an area that I am hugely passionate about and have no plans to give up and currently I'm earning nothing! Obviously couples need to use sense to manage their domestic economics according to need, but there's no way, unless both partners wanted it, that one should sacrifice their job purely because it's a low earner. In my opinion that's not how partnerships work. If both partners are concerned with the well-being and happiness of the other one, there is always a way to work things out.

OP a successful long-term relationship is more about wanting the same things and looking in the same direction than really anything else. If in year one you are feeling compromised on this then perhaps this is not the relationship for you.

Distorted

I'd always prioritise your career, unless having children and staying at home has always been your main desire. Relationships come and go but whats important at the end of the day is having the ability to support yourself financially if it comes down to it. You don't like your present field and it doesn't make you much money, and you have found something you are better suited to. You are only 27, it is absolutely the best time to go for it (far easier than when in your mid thirties). I honestly would have expected any decent guy to support you in such a move, so I'm afraid I agree with the comments that your boyfriend sounds controlling and old fashioned. Your career is something you do yourself, for yourself, and there is no reason why your life should be dictated to you and to be all about other people's wants and needs (which sounds the way your boyfriend thinks he would like it to head).

I actually know several couples where one of the partners is changing career. The other partner supports them throughout this, and they are much the same age as you and your boyfriend. I cannot believe it is an issue for him. Even in careers like medicine or dentistry, its very possible to work part-time and still have a rewarding and lucrative professional career, so I really cannot understand why he is seeking to restrict your future in this way - before you even have children!

I'm guessing you also realise that agreeing to what he wants means you will be dependent on him financially. eg if you want to buy yourself extra expensive shampoo, or that designer dress, you will have to get his permission. If he says no, you won't get it. Plus if once you have children you decide to go back to work, you will be restricted to that low paid unsatisfying career you are currently in, or facing re-training in your late thirties/early forties, which while its possible, just makes everything that bit more complicated.

You sound so bright and keen to do something with your life!

Neyite

Distorted wrote: »

I'm guessing you also realise that agreeing to what he wants means you will be dependent on him financially. eg if you want to buy yourself extra expensive shampoo, or that designer dress, you will have to get his permission. If he says no, you won't get it.

This. You say you are ambitious and I can see that, you also come across as independent and very much your own woman. Do you really want to be scrutinised for spending his money? What if he decides that what us women would consider essential (tampax) is too expensive and buys you own brand sanitary towels. How do you feel about asking him for money to buy his own christmas present, or a present for your mother /sister whatever.

If you do go down the road of being financially dependant, always keep a small amount of what my mother calls "running away money" in an account for youself.

Sleepy

neuro-praxis wrote: »

Neither career should be given the heave-ho just because it's not a huge earner. I work in an area that I am hugely passionate about and have no plans to give up and currently I'm earning nothing! Obviously couples need to use sense to manage their domestic economics according to need, but there's no way, unless both partners wanted it, that one should sacrifice their job purely because it's a low earner. In my opinion that's not how partnerships work. If both partners are concerned with the well-being and happiness of the other one, there is always a way to work things out.

So your partner and child should suffer so you can volunteer your time to others? That seems a very selfish point of view to me.

Yes, it's in a child's interest for both parents to be as happy with their life as possible but in a realistic world where in order for both parents to work, childcare must be paid for, the lower earner's salary comes very much into focus imho.

Even if we agree to disagree on the benefits of a stay-at-home parent over a childcare facility for the child: with two or more children to pay childcare for it doesn't make financial sense for anyone earning even a moderate salary to continue working. Even with a single child, it can cease to make sense for both parents to work where the lower earner isn't on a great salary (given tax benefits, reduced expenses for travel / work wardrobe / work lunches / childcare etc. etc. etc.)

Am I right in thinking you don't have children? Because when children are involved: the family becomes more than a partnership between a couple. The father and mother have joint responsibilities to providing the child(ren) with the best life possible instead of just towards making each other happy.

tbh

not to be patronising but if you're going out less than a year, it's too early to start thinking about children, certainly too early to contemplate ending a relationship over them

neuro-praxis

Sleepy wrote: »

So your partner and child should suffer so you can volunteer your time to others? That seems a very selfish point of view to me.

No need to get defensive...if someone in the family is suffering unduly then their well-being is obviously going to come first. And there is more to life than being a nuclear family unit.

Also, there are periods in life when sometimes you must work for free in order to be able to secure a better future financially. If you have never had to do this you are extremely fortunate. Or one could just rumble along unemployed or in a dreadful job forever knowing that someday you might need to be a stay-at-home mother...

Myself and my partner have been together 13 years now. We have supported one another fully in all our education and training, making plans for our future family. By the time we have children we will both hopefully be better placed than ever to give them a great start, and hopefully not just economically.

I have made many sacrifices for my husband and he has made many for me. When children are part of the equation we will then be making sacrifices for them. However what shape those sacrifices take are not a given. We'll examine our circumstances at the time and make the best decisions for all of us, and those factors will not be purely economic.

Nothing selfish about it! Makes perfect sense to me.

aidan24326

He wants a woman who will stay at home with the kids and look after them while he works.

This should be a massive alarm bell for you. That he wants you to be the little wifey at home changing nappies and making his dinner? Might be an idea to remind him that it's 2011 not 1956. If you want to pursue a career you're quite entitled to do that, and kids can happen somewhere down the line if that's what you BOTH want. Plenty of time for that.

but he wants children earlier due to the risks.

Risks only become an issue of significance when you get up to near the 40 mark, and you're a long way from that yet. You don't need to start trying in the next 5 years. You have 10 years easily. Women nowadays are having children well into their 30s with no problems. Seriously it sounds to me like he just can't wait to get you parked at home as a mother and housewife, which I'd be a bit worried about if I was you.

analucija

I know people who had children and studied full time. In my childhood also almost all mothers worked, including mine and it seems to me more normal and bearable than being stay at home mum. I was back to work when my son was six and it was also better for my sanity. I refuse to be labeled bad mother because I'm not prepared to stay at home 24/7. Childcare here is expensive but otherwise I really don't see an argument against having a career. If your boyfriend doesn't like childcare, he can stay at home. He expects you to have children earlier than you feel comfortable and also wants it to be done his way. There is no compromise and complete disregard for your wishes and feelings. I think you have to stand up for yourself, having children is an important decision and nobody should be forced into it.

I am a friend

There is nothing wrong with the views he has... He is more tradition than a lot of men these days (if they admit it) but it doesn't mean it's wrong.

As well as that he is being very upfront with the op and telling her early into the relationship what he wants. I see the issue here that she doesn't want to tell him what she wants hence the post.

Op you need to be as honest with him as he is with you.

Sleepy

neuro-praxis wrote: »

No need to get defensive...if someone in the family is suffering unduly then their well-being is obviously going to come first. And there is more to life than being a nuclear family unit.

Also, there are periods in life when sometimes you must work for free in order to be able to secure a better future financially. If you have never had to do this you are extremely fortunate. Or one could just rumble along unemployed or in a dreadful job forever knowing that someday you might need to be a stay-at-home mother...

Myself and my partner have been together 13 years now. We have supported one another fully in all our education and training, making plans for our future family. By the time we have children we will both hopefully be better placed than ever to give them a great start, and hopefully not just economically.

I have made many sacrifices for my husband and he has made many for me. When children are part of the equation we will then be making sacrifices for them. However what shape those sacrifices take are not a given. We'll examine our circumstances at the time and make the best decisions for all of us, and those factors will not be purely economic.

Nothing selfish about it! Makes perfect sense to me.

Apologies, it wasn't meant as a personal attack. With no children, I see no problem with such volunteer-ism when your partner is happy to sacrifice life's luxuries to support you.

In fact, it's pretty much what I expect parents to do: sacrifice the luxuries in order to parent their children. With children, I'd consider either parent taking a job that didn't cover the cost of childcare as extremely self indulgent and ultimately a selfish thing to do.

I'd strongly question the value to most families of a second income tbh. Since childcare and other sundry costs negate the majority of the benefit of the extra income (unless that income is significantly above the median which would call into question the need for it when by definition the primary income would be higher again), I'd suggest most children would be better served by that parent staying at home to raise them. For the years prior to starting education at least.

analucija

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd strongly question the value to most families of a second income tbh. Since childcare and other sundry costs negate the majority of the benefit of the extra income (unless that income is significantly above the median which would call into question the need for it when by definition the primary income would be higher again), I'd suggest most children would be better served by that parent staying at home to raise them. For the years prior to starting education at least.

No they wouldn't. I would go crazy if I would have to stay at home. My child is better served in creche than me playing some kind of martyr and staying at home. Somebody resenting their partner and children for the sacrifices they had to make is not doing anybody any favors.

I am a friend

Op doesn't have to do anything...

analucija

I am a friend wrote: »

Op doesn't have to do anything...

No, but there doesn't seem to be much compromise on offer either. And I'd say that she has to talk to boyfriend and be completely open about her feelings and fears.

Sleepy

analucija wrote: »

No they wouldn't. I would go crazy if I would have to stay at home. My child is better served in creche than me playing some kind of martyr and staying at home. Somebody resenting their partner and children for the sacrifices they had to make is not doing anybody any favors.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this because I read "My child is better served in creche" as an admission that "my child is better off being raised by someone else" and whilst I, honestly don't mean that as a personal attack, I'd be very surprised if you didn't take it as one.

Ickle Magoo

Hey OP,

Like everything else in relationships - it's going to come down to communication and compromise. What do you mean by "He wants a woman who will stay at home with the kids and look after them while he works"? Does that mean you never get to work again? He'd prefer pre-school kids don't go to childcare for long hours? What?

Bare in mind that you have been going out less than a year and our opinions shift over time anyway - you may even have completely changed your view on how much work/childcare you want/need by the time you actually have kids. However, I do think it's important if your relationship is to be a healthy and not foster resentment to know he's willing to discuss and is flexible if that isn't exactly what you want out of life - and visa versa.

All the best.

Ickle Magoo

Folks, Please keep replies on topic and helpful to the OP. This isn't a debate on the merits of childcare Vs stay at home parents - please take any such discussion to the appropriate forum or to PM.

If you haven't already done so, please take the time to read the [URL=" http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056181484"]forum rules[/URL] in the charter.

Many thanks.

Squiggler

This is such an emotive matter... and I really don't believe that there is any one-size-fits-all solution.

When and whether to have children is a decision that should be made between two people - the parents and NOBODY else has any say in the matter or should. Sometimes the decision is taken out of the hands of even the parents or would be parents (accidental pregnancy/infertility).

How to raise and support those children, within certain parameters (not endangering their health or safety etc.) is also nobody else's business and something that the couple have to decide for themselves.

Even within a marriage there can be differences of opinion and conflict over these things and uncertainty about the future. All anyone can do is try to make the best decision they can at any given point in time.

But, if you absolutely know that something is not what you want don't do it. Comprimise has to be given, not expected. Sacrifices have to be made willingly. No sensible person should make themselves a Martyr. If you feel resentment about something before you've even done it you could find yourself miserable and angry further down the line.

It's a difficult place to be, and you have tough choices to make, but you do have time. Communication is key, and it needs to be calm communication.

Best of luck.

LittleBook

childrencareer wrote: »

He wants a woman who will stay at home with the kids and look after them while he works.

I am so ambitious. I want to be able to do it all, but that seems impossible.

How do people deal with such a deal breaker?

Well, I think you've answered your own question there if you're classifying this as a deal-breaker. At least he's quite honest about how he views your future together, only you can figure out if you can live with that.

If a couple genuinely believes that children are better off at home with a parent than in a creche, there are compromises which could be reached that would require sacrifices from them both.

But my impression from your post is that you are the only one prepared to make any.

Maga

OP, if you had said that you must decide it tomorrow, I would tell you I’d never ever give up my happiness and fulfillment in my career for being a staying-at-home mom, essentially because this is not my goal in life. Not saying it is right or wrong, but just like you, it’s not something I dreamed or envisioned for myself, and I know I would build resentment against the little ones if I was forced into it, and that would not be fair to them. I would tell you to walk away without thinking twice.

However, you guys are just starting life together…

On one side, yes, his traditionalism could be seen as a red flag, controlling and all. However, you guys are still years and years away from the actual decision. My views in life / children etc have changed so much in the past couple of years, imagine in five! I totally agree with Ickle Magoo, there’s so much that can change! Maybe as he matures, he realises that both things are possible, and if he really insists on the stay-at-home parent, then he is more than welcome to do so himself.

In the meantime, as others mentioned already, make sure you follow your dream and you can support yourself, both emotionally and financially. Follow your goal, your career, but also enjoy your relationship! I’m sure he must have other great things that make this relationship special. Little by little you might be able to explain better to him how you feel about the issue and make him understand how your career is important for you. But if things don't work out, still you will be perfectly strong to stand on your own feet and find a better person to join you in your journey.

As for what is better for children, I feel like debates on “should children or parents come first?” are very relative. There is a huge personal and cultural background to it: some societies and couples think children should come first and therefore sacrifices should be made, while others think marriage and personal life goals should come first, in order to provide stability and genuine happiness to those around them. No right or wrong, just points of view, I suppose.

All the best!

LegacyUser

Unfortunately, life doesn't always follow a plan, no matter how hard you try. You and him might break up in two years time. You might not be able to have kids, or it might take you years longer to have kids than expected. Too many variables, I say. So expect the best but plan for the worst! i.e. Do the course. You could always take a year or two out from it later. Or your priorities may change and you might really like the idea of staying at home with the baby. But give yourself as many options as you can cause you don't know what's in store for you.