Renovating Old House - first steps in assessing costs?

ShriekingSheet

Hi all,

I previously posted regarding my current search for a first home (thanks for replies). One type of property I would be interested in is a "fixer-upper".

My question is, having seen a place myself and liked it, how should I progress in terms of getting a real idea of what it would cost to do up?

Do I bring a QS with me? Do I contact a couple of different contractors and get rough estimates? For any of these people making such assesments, should they be charging me just for their time?

Thanks,

Sheet

TheFarneyman

Doing something similar myself, brought a surveyor along, was 400 euro but money well spent as ended up saving upto 30,000 i kid you not. He did out a thorough investigation and could tell me roughly how much it would cost roughly for a contractor to do the work. Also have a mate that has his own construction company and came with me pretened he was my brother and priced it up. Ill send you on the surveyors contacts if you'd like?

Bigcheeze

How did it save you money? Were you not just getting a cost estimate?

ShriekingSheet

Wow. Was not expecting €400 for the guy to come and give a rough estimate. This is a property I'm considering, but not completely set on. There's a bit of chicken/egg there too, as I can't really set on it until I cost it up for renovation. Dang.

Termonator

Try asking here as well maybe, always useful advice
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1245

Bigcheeze

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Wow. Was not expecting €400 for the guy to come and give a rough estimate. This is a property I'm considering, but not completely set on. There's a bit of chicken/egg there too, as I can't really set on it until I cost it up for renovation. Dang.

Well if it's going to take a couple of hours of his time to do it properly, 400 sounds ok. He's not going to talk around for 5 minutes and pick a number out of his head.

Kosseegan

Be careful about estimates. Sometimes all sorts of problems are found after work starts and the list of "extras" grows and grows. Rennovations often do not come in on budget and many exceed the initial estimate considerably.

ShriekingSheet

Ok, thanks guys.

Appreciate that a QS will spend some time and is deserves a decent fee. I guess I just have to be sure of interest before calling one in.

Much appreciated.

shawnee

A decent builder would give you a ball park estimate pretty quickly. They are looking for work at present. I had a similar idea and brought a builder with me and outlined what I wanted done, he was back to me within three days with an estimate and a very competitive one at that ! I certainly wouldn't be giving 400 euro to a QS for an estimate on a property that I may or may not buy !

gigino

Kosseegan wrote: »

Be careful about estimates. Sometimes all sorts of problems are found after work starts and the list of "extras" grows and grows. Rennovations often do not come in on budget and many exceed the initial estimate considerably.

+1. Be careful about such "estimates". Builders + Quantity surveyors do sometimes get it very wrong. In trying to be nice to their client, they sometimes do not notice all sorts of other problems which only come to light after the project has started. I know one old house which ended up having to get a lot of extra work done which the QS + builder did not spot / anticipate. ...and it ended up costing twice as much.
Old properties - like trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Buyer beware.

Milk & Honey

Look at what happened in the renovation of the Shelbourne Hotel. Went millions over budget despite the fact that one of the partners was a major and experienced developer and quantity surveyor.

Ray Palmer

I think the point is if you don't have much experience taking on major work is not a good idea. Generally what you need is a good survey of the property then you decide how much work you are going to do.

The quality and materials will determine a lot of your cost. THe difference between replacing a roof and adding french doors is pretty big hence needing the surveyor.

As said quotes are not very reliable sepcially when people are trying to get work

TheFarneyman

Price was agreed on the house, however there was an issue with planning permission for an area at the back, paper work error, passed building regulations, Architect signed off on it but planning permission was not granted, surveyor saw this and pointed out it and other minor defaults to the estate agent, bang 30 grand off!! Pays to check out every bit of structure too! Also sense of satisfaction on getting one over on "the man" was quite sweet i must admit!

Ray Palmer

TheFarneyman wrote: »

Price was agreed on the house, however there was an issue with planning permission for an area at the back, paper work error, passed building regulations, Architect signed off on it but planning permission was not granted, surveyor saw this and pointed out it and other minor defaults to the estate agent, bang 30 grand off!! Pays to check out every bit of structure too! Also sense of satisfaction on getting one over on "the man" was quite sweet i must admit!

The man would be who? Private sales would mean it was somebody similar to yourself and your lawyer should have discovered planning wasn't granted. Why anybody would buy anything without planning permission for a discount is beyond me. It can be worthless or even cost you more to rectify the problem.

TheFarneyman

Well, i mean getting a bargain seeing as the person selling the house knew there was no pp on the extension and tried to conceal it. Serves him right IMO.

bath handle

TheFarneyman wrote: »

Well, i mean getting a bargain seeing as the person selling the house knew there was no pp on the extension and tried to conceal it. Serves him right IMO.

all very interesting but nothing to do with the o/ps query, which is about costing.

Ray Palmer

TheFarneyman wrote: »

Well, i mean getting a bargain seeing as the person selling the house knew there was no pp on the extension and tried to conceal it. Serves him right IMO.

Not mentioning it is not the same as conceling it. Have you now got planning for it? Did your lawyer not notice?

ShriekingSheet

shawnee wrote: »

A decent builder would give you a ball park estimate pretty quickly. They are looking for work at present. I had a similar idea and brought a builder with me and outlined what I wanted done, he was back to me within three days with an estimate and a very competitive one at that ! I certainly wouldn't be giving 400 euro to a QS for an estimate on a property that I may or may not buy !

Back on topic, this is the kind of thing I was expecting to be honest.

At the moment, I don't know whether it could cost 50k or 150k to do up.

If a builder was willing to give me a rough steer, with a view to pitching for the business, that would seem a decent next step for me - allowing for the fact that errors can be made, and a QS would be needed down the line.

What do people think of this approach? Are builders actually willing to do this?

Ray Palmer

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Back on topic, this is the kind of thing I was expecting to be honest.

At the moment, I don't know whether it could cost 50k or 150k to do up.

If a builder was willing to give me a rough steer, with a view to pitching for the business, that would seem a decent next step for me - allowing for the fact that errors can be made, and a QS would be needed down the line.

What do people think of this approach? Are builders actually willing to do this?

Yes they are but you would want to trust them a lot becasue you would be making a big decission based on this. Builders like most businesses will quote you happy charge you sad. You have a two options

• Pay through the nose with a company that does everything
• Hire seperate professions to do the jobs but you manage the work and the people blamining each other

ShriekingSheet

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Yes they are but you would want to trust them a lot becasue you would be making a big decission based on this. Builders like most businesses will quote you happy charge you sad. You have a two options

• Pay through the nose with a company that does everything
• Hire seperate professions to do the jobs but you manage the work and the people blamining each other

Interesting. Cheers for that.

I wouldn't base the big decision on a builder walk-around. I'd take it as an indicator and send in a QS (paying the fee) for a full appraisal before I even start bidding on the place.

It just seems like a big jump from liking the place with no idea of fix-up costs, to paying €400 to a QS just to see. This step might be a reasonable in-between option?

If the builder suggests 100k, at least I can walk away and know it's out of my ball park. If he says 50K, I send in the QS to get a proper look.

Kosseegan

The trouble witgh builders looking for work is that they give a keen quote hoping for extras down the line. Get a reputable builder who has done work for people you know. When you get the estimate double it! If you can afford double then you should go further. The trouble with estimates is to identify what is included. batghroom 3k. Does it include tiling? painting? the plumbing in of the radiator? The new window? Treating the woodworm that will be found when the floorboards are lifted?

Ray Palmer

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Interesting. Cheers for that.

I wouldn't base the big decision on a builder walk-around. I'd take it as an indicator and send in a QS (paying the fee) for a full appraisal before I even start bidding on the place.

It just seems like a big jump from liking the place with no idea of fix-up costs, to paying €400 to a QS just to see. This step might be a reasonable in-between option?

If the builder suggests 100k, at least I can walk away and know it's out of my ball park. If he says 50K, I send in the QS to get a proper look.

If you are at the level where you are really unsure of how much it will cost it is a bad sign that you are going to be able to organise and manage different disiplines. You would be much better getting the one company to do it.
The difference of fixtures of a small bathroom can range from €3000 to €15000 so the standard of finish you are thinking of really matters. You really would want to be very sure of what you are doing and they builder you hired. This kind of project is not for the light hearted. Some people think that they can handle it but do you really think you can handle a project that experience people find tough work? Mean while I assume you will be working fulltime yourself. It can be done but you would want to have some kind of project managment or building related experience.

ShriekingSheet

Ray Palmer wrote: »

If you are at the level where you are really unsure of how much it will cost it is a bad sign that you are going to be able to organise and manage different disiplines. You would be much better getting the one company to do it.
The difference of fixtures of a small bathroom can range from €3000 to €15000 so the standard of finish you are thinking of really matters. You really would want to be very sure of what you are doing and they builder you hired. This kind of project is not for the light hearted. Some people think that they can handle it but do you really think you can handle a project that experience people find tough work? Mean while I assume you will be working fulltime yourself. It can be done but you would want to have some kind of project managment or building related experience.

You've taken me up wrong somewhere. I fully agree with you, and have no interest in managing this myself. I do work full time and have zero experience in construction.

This thread is not about the carrying out of the project, it is about costing a potential project up.

I have a place in mind. I have a good grasp of what I can purchase the property for. I have no idea of what it will cost to get it in shape. The total of these two costs has to fit within my budget.

I'm trying to avoid hiring in expensive expertise to tell me that the renovation job is 100K over my budget. If it can't be avoided, fine. But I wanted to ask the question.

mari2222

Commission a structural engineer to carry out a survey to identify the essential repairs needed and the desirable improvements suggested with estimates.

this will be well worth the investment.

ShriekingSheet

mari2222 wrote: »

Commission a structural engineer to carry out a survey to identify the essential repairs needed and the desirable improvements suggested with estimates.

this will be well worth the investment.

Is this instead of, or as well as a Quantity Surveyor?

What kind of money would an SE charge for this?

Ray Palmer

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Is this instead of, or as well as a Quantity Surveyor?

What kind of money would an SE charge for this?

I think the idea of a quantity surveyor is pointless it is a structural suveyor you need.

mari2222

A survey by a structural engineer as above will cost a few hundred but will give you what you need - an estimate of the "must do" and "could do" fix-ups

maggymay66

We are in a similar situation where we are about to view an old cottage in need of total overhaul. Wondering how things turned out for you and what advice you took - Builder, QS or Structural Engineer? Were the quotes accurate or way off the mark? Huge undertaking, but husband works in construction industry (not a builder unfortunately!) so maybe slightly easier to manage!!??

true

maggymay66 wrote: »

We are in a similar situation where we are about to view an old cottage in need of total overhaul. Wondering how things turned out for you and what advice you took - Builder, QS or Structural Engineer? Were the quotes accurate or way off the mark?

Bathrooms, en-suites, kitchens, leaks, damp etc can cost a lot to put right.
I know of 3 different projects where people bought and done up old houses or cottages.....in the end they found it cost more than anticipated, and were sorry they bothered. Problems can become apparent half way through ...the builder scratching his head will cost money. Usually easier / cheaper to built a new house in its place - it will fly up and have modern standards of insulation etc etc. Unless you really like the look of an old house?

maggymay66

It does seem like a bit of a minefield. We have build an extension to our own modern home recently so have enjoyed the ease and comfort of this. This new project will be an investment so trying to weigh up all the advice. I grew up in these cottages so understand the layout and can vision what it will look like - of course getting there will probably cause heartache, sleepless nights a bottomless pit of money - which we don't really have.

Thanks for all the advice - much appreciated. Lots to think about......:)

the_syco

maggymay66 wrote: »

old cottage in need of total overhaul.

If it's old, ensure it's not a protected building. If it is, walk away, as it'll be costly to do it up, and you won't be able to build extensions onto it.

robd

maggymay66 wrote: »

We are in a similar situation where we are about to view an old cottage in need of total overhaul. Wondering how things turned out for you and what advice you took - Builder, QS or Structural Engineer? Were the quotes accurate or way off the mark? Huge undertaking, but husband works in construction industry (not a builder unfortunately!) so maybe slightly easier to manage!!??

Looked into buying something similar. Pulled out in the end as couldn't get it for price where we thought worked when renovation costs were added in.

Architect was estimating at €120 p/ft2 (€1200 p/sqm) + 13.5% VAT + professional fees of about 12k. Was pretty shocked at price so got builder to quote. Came in at €98 p/ft2 (€980 p/sqm) + 13.5% VAT + professional fees.

Sellers still don't realise how much an extensive refurb actually costs. Also you need cash for the refurb as banks aren't lending for this. Labour costs have gone down but building regulations (and common sense) require much higher levels of insulation which reduces savings.

Think it's actually better value to buy a fully done up place at the moment. In fact there was a house down road from one we looked to buy, fully done up for less than purchase cost + refurb costs. I was pretty shocked by this given number of buyers with cash to to refurbs should be low. But there you go.

engineermike

Hi,
I would advise in the first instance that a structural engineering survey - (pre-purchase survey) prior to buying the property would be outlining issues with the existing structure - A survey can be carried out with a view to your requirements for the property (attic conversion, extension etc.).
Secondly:
This would give a working document that can then be passed to your chosen contractors - for PC sum estimation. (Prime Cost sum ).
No Contractors should be charging for quotes or advice these days, its a component of working up to winning a contract - particularly in the residential sector.

With a working knowledge of what is proposed your engineer can give a fee proposal for the design, monitoring & certification of final structure.

Your survey report can also serve as a discussion document if you have an architectural provision for the renovation and / or addition.
A property - fixer upper or otherwise is no different to any other product on the market - If you 'Tailor' something, a premium may be involved.

A QS would normally be brought in when idea's have been sounded out and plan / spec. are available - and savings are then made in conjunction with build timeline - quantity, but a budget overrun should always be factored in.

Personally I believe the extra cost to buying an 'off the shelf' similar property can be recouped in -Energy design and use, well managed space & light to suit your family and the inherent value in years to come -through having created a unique space & energy efficient building.
Mike F