Too many Airports?

robclay26

For a small island, do we have too many Airports? Waterford, Cork, Kerry are close to each other. Same for sligo, galway, shannon are all too close, we need the Atlantic corridor motorway first, with this road, Galway and sligo can be kept for private, maintenance, business aviation. Let Knock take all the Galway and sligo traffic, It has a fantastic Runway, upgraded terminal. Get Airport and seems like a management that know what they are doing.
all we need is:
Dublin=Waterford is 2hr 15 min drive
Cork=waterford 1hr 15 min drive
Knock=Galway 1hr & sligo 1hr
Kerry
Donegal - serves a pretty remote area and the roads are bad for getting to Derry or Knock

Then there is Galway, I could never understand why Galway needs so many Airports, like for example, the Arann Islands are served from Inverin, why not Galway airport?
So say i live on the islands, i want to go to london, i fly from the islands to inverin and have to take a taxi or bus to get to galway airport to catch my connector to london? What kind of gob****e set this up?
And history repeats itself, we have a new airport (well just a runway we cant use) on Inishboffin. so, to fly to this new airport, the government decide to build an airport in cleggan past clifden to serve the island. yes again, wasting money when the service should connect galway city.
If people need to get from shore to shore, the boat does this.

highfield90

Great point. We would have been well served with the three international airports and have a better rail infrastructure serving the catchment areas for the other airports.

Kerry and Knock are joke airports at best.

L1011

Galway and Sligo have zero flights this winter and Sligo is unlikely to have any next summer either so that bit is effectively already happening

Aer Arann Islands used to fly from Oranmore Aerodrome (Before the existing Carnmore/Galway Airport was built) but there was a decision to put the airport in to Connemara for "Gaeltacht job" reasons. Extremely stupid decision, but so was opening Carnmore because Oranmore, had it remained now, could have had a longer runway *and* a railway station. Would have probably prevented Knock from getting off the ground in that case.

xflyer

For a pilot there's never too many airports. The more the merrier.

As for Galway airport. The seem to specialise in driving people away. Aer Arann Islands moved to Inverin after a dispute with the airport and now it's big brother is gone albeit for different reasons. It alienated much of the GA community over the years and even as late as this year effectively turned away business with it's attitude.

As for Knock, the wrong airport built in the wrong place for the wrong reasons. But the right runway. That counts for everything.

robclay26

Interesting that everybody so far thinks the same,
Bottom line is: Some serious problems with Galway management. Are the blind or just plain stupid?

Trains linking the country is the best thing, but thats another story, in the 50's and 60's you could get to anyplace, except Dublin Airport, but 2011 and we still cant get a train. So can't streamline the Airport system with out the trains and/or the roads upgraded.

Another thing I think is not right is with Dublin Airport, T2 is over used, what I mean is there is not enought stands at it and they have to use the old Pier B. They should knock T1 and extend the design of T2 up to the T1 is, rebuild pier A and B and have one larger terminal. Current system is ok, but the place looks like a hole. T1 that is, T2 is a nice job.

sparrowcar

Another thing I think is not right is with Dublin Airport, T2 is over used, what I mean is there is not enought stands at it and they have to use the old Pier B. They should knock T1 and extend the design of T2 up to the T1 is, rebuild pier A and B and have one larger terminal. Current system is ok, but the place looks like a hole. T1 that is, T2 is a nice job.[/QUOTE]

Agree about redeveloping T1 as it is old looking and outdated but there just isn't the money..

nacimroc

You are giving knock far too much credit. Its in the middle of nowhere, near nothing, awful roads to everywhere. I couldn't see it acting as Galways main airport.

Shannon airport is a major, proper airport, designed as such thats already built with the infrastructure in place. Why bother doing up crappy little airports in the middle of nowhere. If they finished the motorway from Gort to Galway and limerick to Cork it would have motorways to 3 major cities within 1 hour as well as servicing the left half of the country.

This country is in such bad need of an intercity motorway its crazy.

Chris P. Bacon

robclay26 wrote: »

Dublin=Waterford is 2hr 15 min drive

It was a few years ago,with the M9 you can get from Waterford to Dublin airport in 1hr 30min .

TW Mr Tayto

I've heard a story before of a British pilot casually looking at a half mil chart in a FTO office, and noting that in Ireland: all the population is on the east coast; but all the airports on the west.
There's your problem!


PS: Anyone a bit nit-picky, change the word "all" to the words "most of the"

owenc

What i think the problem is there's enough airports they're just in the wrong locations in the republic the population is mostly on the east coast so they should be there I think they should maybe have one airport in the west coast etc and the rest on the east coast I don't think donegal is sufficient enough to have an airport did you see where it is! Northern Ireland has a perfect amount of airports they have just about enough passengers for the size of ni I hear that Derry airport is rising in passengers again

TW Mr Tayto

Let's not forget this fiasco.

owenc

nacimroc wrote: »

You are giving knock far too much credit. Its in the middle of nowhere, near nothing, awful roads to everywhere. I couldn't see it acting as Galways main airport.

Shannon airport is a major, proper airport, designed as such thats already built with the infrastructure in place. Why bother doing up crappy little airports in the middle of nowhere. If they finished the motorway from Gort to Galway and limerick to Cork it would have motorways to 3 major cities within 1 hour as well as servicing the left half of the country.

This country is in such bad need of an intercity motorway its crazy.

3lane motorways aswell NAW two lane ones what use us a two lane motorway none!?

highlydebased

nacimroc wrote: »

This country is in such bad need of an intercity motorway its crazy.

Uh, what about the new Dublin-Limerick/Cork/Waterford/Galway/Belfast motorways...?

Condatis

Who remembers the brouhaha with which Enda Kenny declared that Dublin needs a second airport.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0109/dublinairport.html

Lapin

highlydebased wrote: »

Uh, what about the new Dublin-Limerick/Cork/Waterford/Galway/Belfast motorways...?

Uh, not every journey starts or ends in Dublin.

highlydebased

Lapin wrote: »

Uh, not every journey starts or ends in Dublin.

What about the many many towns you can access the motorway from along the way?! And you can drive the opposite direction too, i.e away from Dublin

Lapin

robclay26 wrote: »

Then there is Galway, I could never understand why Galway needs so many Airports, like for example, the Arann Islands are served from Inverin, why not Galway airport?
So say i live on the islands, i want to go to london, i fly from the islands to inverin and have to take a taxi or bus to get to galway airport to catch my connector to london? What kind of gob****e set this up?

A very clever gob****e.

Inverin - Inismore 11 miles
Carnmore - Inismore 33 miles

The move to Invern wiped two thirds off the fuel bill overnight and the shorter flying time allowed the island hopping airline to increase the frequency of their flights, thus carry more passengers per day.

Brilliant business decision in my opinion.

The vast amount of traffic between the Islands and the mainland is generated by tourism. The number of passengers regularly flying between The Aran Islands and London (or anywhere else) is negligible and simply wouldn't justify retaining the more expensive service to Carnmore.

Furthermore - most islanders when travelling abroad, tend to take the ferry to Rossaveal rather than fly, due to baggage restrictions on the aircraft.

Lapin

MYOB wrote: »

Aer Arann Islands used to fly from Oranmore Aerodrome (Before the existing Carnmore/Galway Airport was built) but there was a decision to put the airport in to Connemara for "Gaeltacht job" reasons. Extremely stupid decision, but so was opening Carnmore because Oranmore, had it remained now, could have had a longer runway *and* a railway station. Would have probably prevented Knock from getting off the ground in that case.

Source please.

I can't see how this could be the case, considering that Carnmore is also in the Gaeltacht.

The decision for the move was purely financial.

Su Campu

Here's the way I see it:

Donegal - A necessity, as even to drive to Sligo or Derry would be a pain for a lot of people there, and as for the drive to Dublin.....

Sligo - A lovely airport, but probably not justified with the proximity to Knock.

Knock - Decent airport, but in a bad location weatherwise. Could cater for Sligo too though.

Galway - A bunch of ........ but definitely a worthy spot given the huge tourism.

Shannon - Strategic airport, not just nationally but internationally. Last stop before the US for much of Europe's traffic, and a port in many's the storm.

Kerry - Necessary, given the huge tourism, and its distance from Dublin and even Shannon.

Waterford - Probably a bit like Sligo, no longer justified, with a good road link to both Dublin and Cork, and the nearby ferry port of Rosslare.

robclay26

Su Campu wrote: »

Here's the way I see it:

Donegal - A necessity, as even to drive to Sligo or Derry would be a pain for a lot of people there, and as for the drive to Dublin.....

Sligo - A lovely airport, but probably not justified with the proximity to Knock.

Knock - Decent airport, but in a bad location weatherwise. Could cater for Sligo too though.

Galway - A bunch of ........ but definitely a worthy spot given the huge tourism.

Shannon - Strategic airport, not just nationally but internationally. Last stop before the US for much of Europe's traffic, and a port in many's the storm.

Kerry - Necessary, given the huge tourism, and its distance from Dublin and even Shannon.

Waterford - Probably a bit like Sligo, no longer justified, with a good road link to both Dublin and Cork, and the nearby ferry port of Rosslare.

Think you hit the nail on the head with your summary. Knock yes is in a kinda bad/wrong place, but it the Galway to Sligo Atlantic motorway was built, Knock wins. Has everything and will be no time to get to there from Sligo or Galway. like i am out in the back end of Co. Meath and i have 1hr 15 min drive to Dublin Airport with out traffic delays, so what is the difference in driving 1 hour from galway or sligo to knock?

nacimroc

highlydebased wrote: »

What about the many many towns you can access the motorway from along the way?! And you can drive the opposite direction too, i.e away from Dublin

Your obviously missing the point. If you look at a map and see all the motorways spreading out horizontally across Ireland from Dublin, its clear to see the country is in bad need of a motorway linking this countries OTHER MAJOR cities running vertically. You think anyone on the West coast should drive to Dublin just because theres a motorway going that direction?

It takes 1hr 45min to go from Cork to Limerick and a further hour to Galway. 3 major cities a few miles apart. People seem to have this obsession with Dublin hence the need for plenty of airports.

L1011

Lapin wrote: »

Source please.

I can't see how this could be the case, considering that Carnmore is also in the Gaeltacht.

The decision for the move was purely financial.

Dail debates.

There is no way the FF mafia that arranged it would consider anything in Galway East as being "proper" for them.

Seeing as the decision required masses of state funding to build Connemara Regional, it was anything but financial. There would have been no airport for AAI to move to without ridiculous protectionism causing Connemara Regional to be built.

There aren't any jobs in that part of Connemara for people from the islands to commute to, nor are there shops worth using; and there's been two resident GPs on the islands for the best part of a decade. There is absolutely no justification for flying to an airport 25 miles the wrong side of the city on a brutal road when they could have flown to one in the city.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

urajoke

Too many airport God yes especially on the west coast and Aer Arann's recent decision could kill Galway airport off but they have only themselves mainly and a good motorway to blame. But if they could sort themselves out and maybe stretch that runway a bit they could kill off Shannon to passengers.

As far as the terminals go at Dublin. What has been done is about a third of the master plan. Pier A and Pier B were meant to knocked and rebuilt and extended similar to Pier E and the T1 was meant to be remodelled to look like T2. Pier D has planning permission to be extended slightly down further towards 16.

28/10 has not got much life left in it. They are currently running scans of it regularly to monitor its structure. It has been resurfaced but the substructure(foundation) is near its end of life. So the DAA have a big choice coming up and it involves building a new runway either 28R being built and 28L closing or rebuilding 28. At the moment traffic keeps dropping and is not bottoming out unfortunetly. Hopefully Emirates can boost numbers and maybe signal the bottom. We all know numbers won't grow till we get more people back in work. I'm sick of seeing European airports reporting an increase in traffic us wallowing.

We do suffer from an overpopulous amount of airports. Most were built prior to the motorway network. Now they have been built I can see the much smaller ones struggle hugely and maybe close commercially but remain as VFR only airfields.

highlydebased

urajoke wrote: »

Too many airport God yes especially on the west coast and Aer Arann's recent decision could kill Galway airport off but they have only themselves mainly and a good motorway to blame. But if they could sort themselves out and maybe stretch that runway a bit they could kill off Shannon to passengers.

Highly unlikely.

urajoke

highlydebased wrote: »

Highly unlikely.

You are right it would take a runway of 8-9000ft to do it, highly unlikely more like extremely unlikely. But Galway has much more to offer than Limerick and is more central to the tourism area for the Shannon region.

Richard

highlydebased wrote: »

Uh, what about the new Dublin-Limerick/Cork/Waterford/Galway/Belfast motorways...?

There isn't a new Dublin-Belfast motorway, it's Dublin to Dundalk, with upgraded Dual Carriageway to join on to the existing DC north of Newry.

highlydebased

Richard wrote: »

There isn't a new Dublin-Belfast motorway, it's Dublin to Dundalk, with upgraded Dual Carriageway to join on to the existing DC north of Newry.

Well there's still a very decent road is the point i'm making.

Tenger

nacimroc wrote: »

.........If you look at a map and see all the motorways spreading out horizontally across Ireland from Dublin, its clear to see the country is in bad need of a motorway linking this countries OTHER MAJOR cities running vertically. You think anyone on the West coast should drive to Dublin just because theres a motorway going that direction?

I think that our motorway/road/rail network is a result of planning in the 19th century. Back then Dublin was an important city of the UK, the entire country was oriented towards the Big Smoke. After Independence this trend was continued.

I too think that a North-South motorway (or at least Dual Carriageway,doesn't that term hark back to the 1800's?) linking Cork-Limerick-Galway-Sligo-Donegal would be a great piece of infrastructure to connect the Western Seaboard.


With better forward planning Galway could have been placed in a better location and could have had decent road links to allow people from the Sligo/Knock catchment to access it.
I wonder how much power,if any, the SNN lobby had to stymy the growth of GWY?

merlante

Chris P. Bacon wrote: »

It was a few years ago,with the M9 you can get from Waterford to Dublin airport in 1hr 30min .

Google maps gives Waterford-Dublin Airport 1hr 50mins, which is about right if you stay within the limit.

Unlike, other airports, which grew fat on PSOs, Waterford never got one. It focusses on the UK market and has solid routes that have proved more robust than their Galway counterparts in the recession. The motorway to Dublin has nothing got to do with Waterford, since there haven't been Waterford-Dublin flights for years. Flying out of Waterford is clearly preferable than traveling to Dublin first, particularly since you only have to show up at the airport 40/50mins before the flight takes off.

A department of transport report cited Waterford's costs as being too high, but concludes that Waterford has the potential to survive with little or no subvention if costs are reduced. They did NOT come to this conclusion with Galway and Sligo, whose businesses are severely cannibalised by Knock. Saying, as one poster did, that Waterford's case is similar to that of Sligo is ridiculous. Waterford's case is more similar to that of Knock or Derry, except that currently the airport lacks jet capability, so cannot take advantage of holiday flights.

The only sensible configuration -- given what we have at present -- is three international airports at Dublin, Cork and Shannon (maybe downgrade Shannon), and regional airports at Waterford, Farranfore and Knock. Galway, Sligo and Donegal are clearly surplus to requirements (in the latter case, Derry airport serves Donegal better anyway). Build a jet runway in Waterford and it goes from breaking even to making a profit -- but that's maybe something for the future given the current circumstances.

btw. @Plowman, I notice your nice graphic leaves Waterford and the south east out of the picture. Try not to let your ignorance of the region get in the way of good judgement.

So, in summary: 2/3 international airports & 3/4 regional airports.

Chris P. Bacon

merlante wrote: »

btw. @Plowman, I notice your nice graphic leaves Waterford and the south east out of the picture. Try not to let your ignorance of the region get in the way of good judgement.

I can see Waterford and the south east very clearly in the picture he posted.

xflyer

Waterford is there and it's the exception as it's outside the 90 minute ring from two major airports and it's on the East coast. Plus it's isn't subsidised as has been pointed. In short it's the nearest thing to being a model for a regional airport. It survives on it's own income.

There is no reason any of the regional airports can't survive in one form or other. Their business model must change, if not they close as airports and revert to a private airfield much like Weston. Similar airfields are common all over Britain, often with WW2 built runways.

Once an airfield or airport closes it's very hard to re-open and it would be a great loss.

Neworder79

Waterford does receive subsidy, OPEX grants to break even, without which it would post losses in the region of €1.5-2m in recent years.

Cosmo Kramer

merlante wrote: »

Unlike, other airports, which grew fat on PSOs, Waterford never got one. It focusses on the UK market and has solid routes that have proved more robust than their Galway counterparts in the recession. The motorway to Dublin has nothing got to do with Waterford, since there haven't been Waterford-Dublin flights for years. Flying out of Waterford is clearly preferable than traveling to Dublin first, particularly since you only have to show up at the airport 40/50mins before the flight takes off.

A department of transport report cited Waterford's costs as being too high, but concludes that Waterford has the potential to survive with little or no subvention if costs are reduced. They did NOT come to this conclusion with Galway and Sligo, whose businesses are severely cannibalised by Knock. Saying, as one poster did, that Waterford's case is similar to that of Sligo is ridiculous. Waterford's case is more similar to that of Knock or Derry, except that currently the airport lacks jet capability, so cannot take advantage of holiday flights.

The only sensible configuration -- given what we have at present -- is three international airports at Dublin, Cork and Shannon (maybe downgrade Shannon), and regional airports at Waterford, Farranfore and Knock. Galway, Sligo and Donegal are clearly surplus to requirements (in the latter case, Derry airport serves Donegal better anyway). Build a jet runway in Waterford and it goes from breaking even to making a profit -- but that's maybe something for the future given the current circumstances.

btw. @Plowman, I notice your nice graphic leaves Waterford and the south east out of the picture. Try not to let your ignorance of the region get in the way of good judgement.

So, in summary: 2/3 international airports & 3/4 regional airports.

I don't think Waterford can be compared to Knock, Kerry or Derry any more than than it is comparable to Sligo. In reality it is in a specific position of its own and cannot be compared to any other Irish Airport. Knock, Derry and Kerry all have sufficient runway length and will see out the downturn in one piece with relative ease. Galway and Sligo do not have the runway or a large catchment area to themselves and are, quite frankly, screwed.

Waterford is probably the most borderline case. It is massively limited by its 1400m runway but benefits from the fact that the nearest jet capable airports are a good distance away. It has also been unaffected by the PSO withdrawals. However, I'm not sure that your comment about 'solid UK routes' is true. Birmingham is being dropped within the next month and, as it has similar passenger numbers and has seen a greater drop in 2011, Manchester may also be in danger of being cut. That would just leave flights to London, the majority destined for the less popular Southend Airport and now without passengers from Galway to help fill the flights.

Actually the more I think about it, the more likely it seems that Waterford will be the next one to bite the dust. Aer Arann have switched focus to the Aer Lingus Regional brand now and with nothing to suggest that they are likely to set up Waterford as an Aer Lingus Regional base, it may be that it will be Aer Arann that ultimately pulls the plug rather than the airport itself.

Tenger

merlante wrote: »

......A department of transport report cited Waterford's costs as being too high, but concludes that Waterford has the potential to survive with little or no subvention if costs are reduced. They did NOT come to this conclusion with Galway and Sligo,


btw. @Plowman, I notice your nice graphic leaves Waterford and the south east out of the picture. Try not to let your ignorance of the region get in the way of good judgement.

I could have sworn I saw EIWF on that map as 'other airport'

xflyer

Neworder79 wrote: »

Waterford does receive subsidy, OPEX grants to break even, without which it would post losses in the region of €1.5-2m in recent years.

Maybe but so do the others but they alone didn't receive a PSO. I would tend to agree with Cosmo though. It's at risk of an Aer Arann pullout as much as anywhere. I remember when Ryanair pulled out of there in the early nineties. The old Ryanair which used a Hs748. It nearly killed it. Not too long after that I flew in there with a friend, a Ryanair hostie as he put it himself. He was wearing the uniform. As we sat in the Cafe, staff kept coming in and looking at him and they weren't smiling. Clearly it was a big issue for them.

merlante

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I don't think Waterford can be compared to Knock, Kerry or Derry any more than than it is comparable to Sligo. In reality it is in a specific position of its own and cannot be compared to any other Irish Airport. Knock, Derry and Kerry all have sufficient runway length and will see out the downturn in one piece with relative ease. Galway and Sligo do not have the runway or a large catchment area to themselves and are, quite frankly, screwed.

Waterford is probably the most borderline case. It is massively limited by its 1400m runway but benefits from the fact that the nearest jet capable airports are a good distance away. It has also been unaffected by the PSO withdrawals. However, I'm not sure that your comment about 'solid UK routes' is true. Birmingham is being dropped within the next month and, as it has similar passenger numbers and has seen a greater drop in 2011, Manchester may also be in danger of being cut. That would just leave flights to London, the majority destined for the less popular Southend Airport and now without passengers from Galway to help fill the flights.

Actually the more I think about it, the more likely it seems that Waterford will be the next one to bite the dust. Aer Arann have switched focus to the Aer Lingus Regional brand now and with nothing to suggest that they are likely to set up Waterford as an Aer Lingus Regional base, it may be that it will be Aer Arann that ultimately pulls the plug rather than the airport itself.

Waterford is one decent runway short of replicating Knock, Kerry or Derry, because of the size of the uncontested catchment area. Okay, the runway is no small thing, but it is a lot easier for Waterford to get finance for a new runway than it is for Sligo to attract another few hundred thousand people to the region and hope that Knock airport goes away in the meantime. Having said that, given the times we are living in, Waterford may not get its runway and a relatively short series of calamities could do the airport in. It is a pity that Waterford airport's potential was not recognised by the previous regime, and funding instead diverted to other airports, which, in the final analysis, were not viable/necessary.

Much of the rest of your post is speculation. I hadn't heard about Birmingham, but going to the site, I see you can't book any flights in March, which I tried... so I assume you are correct. Waterford's passenger numbers do seem pretty resilient, given the circumstances, but that is not to say that those numbers will be good enough for Aer Arann, whose business seems to be changing on a daily basis, mainly for the worse. The withdrawal of Galway, will of course reduce numbers further. It is not clear what Aer Arann needs from Waterford to keep going. Do you know where up to date passenger numbers can be found (looking at wikipedia).

The other question is how interested Stobart is in developing the Aer Arann. If they are interested in investing further, I think Waterford flights would be maintained. Otherwise, it's very hard to tell what Aer Arann's financial situation is.

Su Campu

merlante wrote: »

Waterford is one decent runway short of replicating Knock, Kerry or Derry, because of the size of the uncontested catchment area. Okay, the runway is no small thing, but it is a lot easier for Waterford to get finance for a new runway than it is for Sligo to attract another few hundred thousand people to the region and hope that Knock airport goes away in the meantime. Having said that, given the times we are living in, Waterford may not get its runway and a relatively short series of calamities could do the airport in. It is a pity that Waterford airport's potential was not recognised by the previous regime, and funding instead diverted to other airports, which, in the final analysis, were not viable/necessary.

Much of the rest of your post is speculation. I hadn't heard about Birmingham, but going to the site, I see you can't book any flights in March, which I tried... so I assume you are correct. Waterford's passenger numbers do seem pretty resilient, given the circumstances, but that is not to say that those numbers will be good enough for Aer Arann, whose business seems to be changing on a daily basis, mainly for the worse. The withdrawal of Galway, will of course reduce numbers further. It is not clear what Aer Arann needs from Waterford to keep going. Do you know where up to date passenger numbers can be found (looking at wikipedia).

The other question is how interested Stobart is in developing the Aer Arann. If they are interested in investing further, I think Waterford flights would be maintained. Otherwise, it's very hard to tell what Aer Arann's financial situation is.

And your response to the posters that pointed out that EIWF IS on the map? Apology, no?

Cosmo Kramer

merlante wrote: »

Waterford is one decent runway short of replicating Knock, Kerry or Derry, because of the size of the uncontested catchment area. Okay, the runway is no small thing, but it is a lot easier for Waterford to get finance for a new runway than it is for Sligo to attract another few hundred thousand people to the region and hope that Knock airport goes away in the meantime. Having said that, given the times we are living in, Waterford may not get its runway and a relatively short series of calamities could do the airport in. It is a pity that Waterford airport's potential was not recognised by the previous regime, and funding instead diverted to other airports, which, in the final analysis, were not viable/necessary.

Much of the rest of your post is speculation. I hadn't heard about Birmingham, but going to the site, I see you can't book any flights in March, which I tried... so I assume you are correct. Waterford's passenger numbers do seem pretty resilient, given the circumstances, but that is not to say that those numbers will be good enough for Aer Arann, whose business seems to be changing on a daily basis, mainly for the worse. The withdrawal of Galway, will of course reduce numbers further. It is not clear what Aer Arann needs from Waterford to keep going. Do you know where up to date passenger numbers can be found (looking at wikipedia).

The other question is how interested Stobart is in developing the Aer Arann. If they are interested in investing further, I think Waterford flights would be maintained. Otherwise, it's very hard to tell what Aer Arann's financial situation is.

All the relevant numbers for Waterford can be found here up to July

http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/Define.asp?MainTable=CTM01&TabStrip=Select&PLanguage=0&FF=1

by doing a search under Waterford Airport. To quickly summarise for January to July this year Birmingham is down 12%, Luton/Southend combined is down 19% and Manchester is down 25% with numbers on Manchester dropping below the numbers on the Birmingham route in July. The Birmingham route had the lowest drop but was still cut. Total passengers this year will struggle to make 80,000 which would be about a 20% drop on last year.

I don't deny that things would be different if there was a longer runway, but there isn't and won't be anytime soon. Therefore the figures seem somewhat concerning. Aer Arann in its own name appears to be dying a death. From mid-November onwards they will be down to just 6 routes:

Kerry - Dublin
Isle of Man - Dublin
Isle of Man - London City
Waterford - Luton
Waterford - Southend
Waterford - Manchester

They do, of course, operate many other routes under the Aer Lingus Regional brand for EI and this seems to be where their future potential lies.

Tenger

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

They do, of course, operate many other routes under the Aer Lingus Regional brand for EI and this seems to be where their future potential lies.

Well this business model has been running for a long time in the US.

xflyer

Thanks for your constructive input, headmaster. We are all appropriately ashamed of ourselves but enlightened by your presence. Thank you, thank you.

Begging your pardon before you go, perhaps you could deign to illuminate us with your credentials as an expert in business and aviation?

I've only spent thirty years knocking around this aviation business, what do I know?

merlante

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

All the relevant numbers for Waterford can be found here up to July

http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/Define.asp?MainTable=CTM01&TabStrip=Select&PLanguage=0&FF=1

by doing a search under Waterford Airport. To quickly summarise for January to July this year Birmingham is down 12%, Luton/Southend combined is down 19% and Manchester is down 25% with numbers on Manchester dropping below the numbers on the Birmingham route in July. The Birmingham route had the lowest drop but was still cut. Total passengers this year will struggle to make 80,000 which would be about a 20% drop on last year.

I don't deny that things would be different if there was a longer runway, but there isn't and won't be anytime soon. Therefore the figures seem somewhat concerning. Aer Arann in its own name appears to be dying a death. From mid-November onwards they will be down to just 6 routes:

Kerry - Dublin
Isle of Man - Dublin
Isle of Man - London City
Waterford - Luton
Waterford - Southend
Waterford - Manchester

They do, of course, operate many other routes under the Aer Lingus Regional brand for EI and this seems to be where their future potential lies.

That is really bad all right, worse than I thought. I guess it is touch and go for both Waterford Airport and Aer Arann, where it is not clear which is the weaker of the two. It would be terrible if Waterford Airport had to close because of weakness in Aer Arann if there is a market there.

By abandoning the Birmingham route, maybe they can strengthen or consolidate Manchester and hopefully the London routes will stabilise. Passenger numbers not necessarily a guide to profitability as load factors may increase with measures that are and have been taken, so we'll have to see. Though I guess working out load factors is a simple enough calculation. 80,000 would be fine (for now) if they are making money. Anecdotally, every flight I've been on recently appeared to me completely full.

Crazy to think that Aer Arann are now only operating out of Dublin and Waterford in Ireland.

Growler!!!

headmaster wrote: »

I've just read all YOUR posts on this particular forum, all I can say is, it's quite obvious that YOU don't have a clue of HOW INTERNET FORUMS WORK. Whatever it is you do career wise, please stop spouting rubbish on something you know nothing about. As for any of you replying to my post in a questionable manner, forget it, because i have no intention of entertaining any semblance of debate with you people. Go learn the basics OF INTERNET FORUM POSTING AND TROLLING, study them, study them again then come back and you might be given pencils to start with, they'll have erasers on the top so you can rub out most of the rubbish again and again and again. Then start again. Now, are we beginning to understand? Good.

Fixed that for ya.


Definition of internet forum:

An Internet forum, or message board, is an online discussion site where people can hold conversations in the form of posted messages

Definition of discussion on iternet forum:

Forums prefer a premise of open and free discussion and often adopt de facto standards. Most common topics on forums include questions, comparisons, polls of opinion as well as debates. It is not uncommon for nonsense or unsocial behavior to sprout as people lose temper, especially if the topic is controversial. Poor understanding of differences in values of the participants is a common problem on forums. Because replies to a topic are often worded aimed at someone's point of view, discussion will usually go slightly off into several directions as people question each others' validity, sources and so on. Circular discussion and ambiguity in replies can extend for several tens of posts of a thread eventually ending when everyone gives up or attention spans waver and a more interesting subject takes over. It is not uncommon for debate to end in ad hominem attacks.

Thanks again for your contibution. Can you please let us know how you really feel on this subject.

Oh and I wont be responding to any of your responses either - why?, cos it the internet and you sir are a Troll.

Definition of a troll:

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.


Bye bye now:D

sparrowcar

:rolleyes::rolleyes:^^^^^^ ouch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc-jySS7rzQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

joey12

You guys are hardly giving knock any credit...actually growing in this economic climate must be nothing to any of ye..... more than 600,000 use knock every year. In my opinion serves the west very well, very centrally located on the crossroads of the N17 & N5. Knock has made life for Shannon very difficult, knock has a very lean operation up there.

Lads look into the facts be before ya comment, Shannon is in a lot more trouble than Knock. And perhaps with the arrival of Lufthansa and Flybe to knock there can be more growth.:)

Now don't get me wrong I do agree there are way too many airports, but if a place can prove itself and grow it deserves to stay. Unlike Galway who remained stagnant and is/was heavily reliant on government funding and still looking for it, for the sake to 2/3 daily services.

Masala

Waterford.......plus it's isn't subsidised as has been pointed. In short it's the nearest thing to being a model for a regional airport. It survives on it's own income

....check your facts!!!! Huge subsidies given annually to Waterford....just because they don't have a PSO route to Dublin doesn't mean that they stand on their own two feet. They get plenty of money for Operational purposes as well as Capital Projects.

And... remember they have the very lucrative Search N Rescue uniot based there.... nice earner if you can get it!!

highlydebased

joey12 wrote: »

You guys are hardly giving knock any credit...actually growing in this economic climate must be nothing to any of ye..... more than 600,000 use knock every year. In my opinion serves the west very well, very centrally located on the crossroads of the N17 & N5. Knock has made life for Shannon very difficult, knock has a very lean operation up there. s.

Very difficult, I don't think so.

Knock might have a small portion of Shannon's lost business, but definitely not all of it.

saywhatyousee

There is not really much of a need for Galway and Sligo airports in fairness.
Knock airport is only 40 mins from sligo and it has made travelling so much easier long may it continue:).I can be at my front door to London in 3 hours not bad considering it would probaly take me the same time to travel to Shannon airport.