Protection of rare birds in Ireland...(title amended + mod note post 6 + mod post 47)

Traonach

I don't shoot myself (have no desire either). I wouldn't be against shooting common species such as pheasant, hoodies, woodpigeon mallard etc.

What I don't agree with is shooting of threatened species such as Red Grouse, Golden Plover and Curlew.

Other rare species have been taken off the shooting list like Greenland-whitefronted geese, why can't Red Grouse be taken off. If numbers recover to healthy numbers then shooting can start again.

Half-cocked

Traonach wrote: »

Other rare species have been taken off the shooting list like Greenland-whitefronted geese, why can't Red Grouse be taken off. If numbers recover to healthy numbers then shooting can start again.

The relevant Minister makes the decision annually. Ministers are politicians. Need I say more?;)

Birdnuts

This topic has been discussed here numerious times before- very few irish hunters bother with these species and in the case of the latter 2, their wintering populations are still robust so the chance of an irish breeder falling to the gun is very remote indeed . The Grouse season is only a month long anyways and some of the best grouse habitat is in protected national parks like Wicklow and Ballycroy. The reasons the breeding populations of these species have declined are well known(primarily habitat destruction) and have nothing to do with hunting. Indeed a number of conservation groups are working with local gun clubs to restore habitat for these species:)

PS: In any case such decesions are not in the remit of hunters but the NPWS who presumebly brief the minister on such matters - the EU also has a role too.

Traonach

Birdnuts wrote: »

- very few irish hunters bother with these species and in the case of the latter 2, their wintering populations are still robust so the chance of an irish breeder falling to the gun is very remote indeed .
s:)

If very few hunters bother with Golden Plover and Curlew, why have it on the shooting list so?

The Grouse season is only a month long anyways and some of the best grouse habitat is in protected national parks like Wicklow and Ballycroy.]

You can still shoot plenty of grouse in a month.

Indeed a number of conservation groups are working with local gun clubs to restore habitat for these specie

Yes restore the habitat and control predators like crows and foxes, but don't shoot the Red Grouse till numbers have recovered.

PS: In any case such decesions are not in the remit of hunters but the NPWS who presumebly brief the minister on such matters - the EU also has a role too.

So groups such as NAGRC have no influence on the quarry list. I don't believe that for a second.

Birdnuts

Traonach wrote: »

If very few hunters bother with Golden Plover and Curlew, why have it on the shooting list so?
.

Thats something you need to ask the NPWS - as i said, ordinary hunters don't make these calls .

PS: I will also add that Irish hunters in general are the most law-abiding in the world and should be seen as partners in conservation

littlebug

*Mod note*

I'm not comfortable with a thread focused on shooting of birds in the nature and birdwatching forum. That discussion has been had before and it generally doesn't end well:(
I would like the focus to be on protection of rare birds rather than shooting of (and have thus amended the title)> This does differ somewhat from the content of the op but.... should the thread focus on shooting/ hunting then it doesn't belong in this forum and as such won't have a future....

kildare.17hmr

i wouldnt shoot any of the above, the only game birds ill shoot are phesent, duck and pigeons. i will shoot all vermin. Everyone i shoot with would be the same

Kess73

Traonach wrote: »

I don't shoot myself (have no desire either). I wouldn't be against shooting common species such as pheasant, hoodies, woodpigeon mallard etc.

What I don't agree with is shooting of threatened species such as Red Grouse, Golden Plover and Curlew.

Other rare species have been taken off the shooting list like Greenland-whitefronted geese, why can't Red Grouse be taken off. If numbers recover to healthy numbers then shooting can start again.

The problem, imho of course, with Red grouse or any other threatened species being legally shot does not lie with the shooter but with those who make it legal to shoot any animal that has dwindling or declining numbers.

I think that the knowledge of the advisors to the law makers has to be questioned, and that the only way to get birds like the Red Grouse onto a no shoot list is through getting the relevant information either to the advisors or the office of the relevent politician.

Another reason why Red Grouse can be shot would be because their status has remained unchanged for quite some time despite falling numbers thanks to the findings of the 2007 Red Grouse survey. Birdwatch Ireland managed this survey on behalf of the NWPS.

I do know that a large number of gun clubs were very active in helping with the survey, and funnily enough some of the areas with the healthiest ( although still declining) populations of red grouse were either on or right by lands used by gun clubs. Make of that what you will, I found it to be a very interesting little stat myself.

The Red Grouse has also had a big decline in numbers in the UK, and my own personal knowledge will be much stronger with regards the English and Welsh surveys. What was found to be the biggest two reasons for the drop in numbers in England were the planting of conifer forests in areas that were previously Red Grouse strongholds and also Red Grouse territories being used heavily for animal grazing. Now I cannot say my next bit with certainty but it strikes me as logical that the same could apply over here in Ireland as many of the areas that would have been Red Grouse, or at least the Irish version of a Red Grouse as it is not quite the same bird as the UK Red Grouse, rich areas are now quite heavily forested and much of those forest areas are made up of similar types of tree as their UK counterparts.

I think you are dead right to want to see birds like the Red Grouse protected, but I think that getting them protected from hunters would only be the tip of the iceberg as protecting the habitats that they need to breed and feed on would have to happen first.

Half-cocked

Kess73 wrote: »

I think that the knowledge of the advisors to the law makers has to be questioned, and that the only way to get birds like the Red Grouse onto a no shoot list is through getting the relevant information either to the advisors or the office of the relevent politician.

I know one of the NPWS advisors, now retired, who annually recommended various species be removed from the open seasons order, only to have his advice ignored by the Minister every time. What is and isn't hunted is down to discretion of the Minister each year and he/she is free to ignore the advice of experts. When the NARGC are consulted (as are all stakeholders) and they have 20,000 plus members, the Minister will be thinking of all those rural votes instead of the expert advice.

PCPhoto

bit of a strange post but if anyone is going watching and doesn't mind a photographer coming along to photograph the birds - at the moment unfortunately my only day off from work is a Sat.

Would especially like the opportunity to photograph some of the rarer birds - just to have an image of them.

* = had to be very careful with my wording , normally I'd say "Shoot" instead of photograph but in this thread not a good idea.

LostCovey

Kess73 wrote: »

I think you are dead right to want to see birds like the Red Grouse protected, but I think that getting them protected from hunters would only be the tip of the iceberg

Yes, I agree, but it would be a good start.

It's a bit tricky to explain to people that they should ease up on the grazing, or turf-cutting, or plant less forestry, or erect no windfarms, to protect a species that can be legally shot dead for a month of the year.

I am amazed that this issue doesn't have a consensus here of all places, with people like Birdnuts sounding quite ambivalent.

You simply can't hope to win a conservation argument if your goal is the preservation of game for what are (wrongly I agree) perceived to be an elite minority to shoot at their leisure

LC

Kess73

Half-cocked wrote: »

I know one of the NPWS advisors, now retired, who annually recommended various species be removed from the open seasons order, only to have his advice ignored by the Minister every time. What is and isn't hunted is down to discretion of the Minister each year and he/she is free to ignore the advice of experts. When the NARGC are consulted (as are all stakeholders) and they have 20,000 plus members, the Minister will be thinking of all those rural votes instead of the expert advice.

And there lies another part of why it is so hard for certain animals to get protection. Good post and one that I cannot disagree with tbh.

MOSSAD

We talk about the minister ignoring recommendations of people on the ground. MOre to the point I'd say it's the senior civil servants who couldn't tell a pigeon from a pheasant and who I suspect couldn't care less. The best thing to do is to go to the constituency office, meet the relevant TD, explain the situation and work from there. It actually can work.
Re. red grouse, they used to be all over the place here in west clare until the prohibitions on mountain burning came in- now the heather is often 4 foot high until we get a rare dry period in which to burn the odd year.

Birdnuts

LostCovey wrote: »

I am amazed that this issue doesn't have a consensus here of all places, with people like Birdnuts sounding quite ambivalent.

You simply can't hope to win a conservation argument if your goal is the preservation of game for what are (wrongly I agree) perceived to be an elite minority to shoot at their leisure

LC

LC - I'm simply pointing out that all stakeholders including lawfull hunters, farmers and conservationists need to be brought on board for the protection of rare or declining species to be a success in this country. Targeting or annoying any one group for acting within current laws will not help the cause one iota and will in fact set the conservation agenda back in this country(as has been the experience in other countries in regards to such matters:(). If the law needs to be changed then its the government and its offices that need to get the finger out here and of course people are fully entitled to lobby goverment to that end in regards to complying with relevant EU legislation and the latest scientific data etc.. As it is there are too many current laws that are not adequatly enforced in this area which is where I feel the real push by all needs to be!!

LostCovey

Birdnuts wrote: »

LC - I'm simply pointing out that all stakeholders including lawfull hunters, farmers and conservationists need to be brought on board for the protection of rare or declining species to be a success in this country. Targeting or annoying any one group for acting within current laws will not help the cause one iota and will in fact set the conservation agenda back in this country(as has been the experience in other countries in regards to such matters:(). If the law needs to be changed then its the government and its offices that need to get the finger out here and of course people are fully entitled to lobby goverment to that end in regards to complying with relevant EU legislation and the latest scientific data etc.. As it is there are too many current laws that are not adequatly enforced in this area which is where I feel the real push by all needs to be!!

I am not targeting, and I hope I am not annoying people who are acting within the current laws.

However the laws are patently mad, and most of those governed by them (ie shooters) agree that it is mad, and many have voluntarily decided to ignore the season for Grouse and Curlew (and in the case of quite a few that I know, for hares too).

However there is no hope whatever that we can do ANYTHING to conserve a species that is on the game list.

Why would we get say European money to study their decline, or landowners to try to preserve habitat, when the Government publishes a notice every year inviting members of the public to shoot them??????????

I have no issue with you really Birdnuts, but this is not some nuanced complex fragile issue - they are nearly gone, and the last of them will be shot in the next decade or two if nothing changes.

Maybe I should just get used to that idea, as everyone else seems to think that is the way to go.

Not yet.

LostCovey

Birdnuts

LostCovey wrote: »

I am not targeting, and I hope I am not annoying people who are acting within the current laws.

However the laws are patently mad, and most of those governed by them (ie shooters) agree that it is mad, and many have voluntarily decided to ignore the season for Grouse and Curlew (and in the case of quite a few that I know, for hares too).

However there is no hope whatever that we can do ANYTHING to conserve a species that is on the game list.

Why would we get say European money to study their decline, or landowners to try to preserve habitat, when the Government publishes a notice every year inviting members of the public to shoot them??????????

I have no issue with you really Birdnuts, but this is not some nuanced complex fragile issue - they are nearly gone, and the last of them will be shot in the next decade or two if nothing changes.

Maybe I should just get used to that idea, as everyone else seems to think that is the way to go.

Not yet.

LostCovey

With respect LC, there is no basis for those assertions. As Kess pointed out, Red Grouse populations have stabilized in recent years in this country(albeit at a low level). Ongoing declines in both breeding Golden Plover and Curlew are fundamentally linked to ongoing habitat destruction(I have personally witnessed the latter in Turlough country in SE Mayo). The miniscule chance of any of the tiny Irish breeding population of these 2 species being shot amongst the still robust wintering populations makes this rather a storm in a tea-cup IMO as regards the conservation of both birds. The fundemental issue for both species is stemming the tide of habitat loss, everything else is merely pointless window dressing!!.

Traonach

Birdnuts wrote: »

As Kess pointed out, Red Grouse populations have stabilized in recent years in this country(albeit at a low level). .

Have you a link showing Red Grouse populations have stabilized?

Mickeroo

I've never really seen shooting as a major problem in bird conservation as it is in the gun clubs best interest to have healthy populations of birds rather than the opposite. From what I've heard they are only happy to contribute to helping conservation for the most part.

Birdnuts

Traonach wrote: »

Have you a link showing Red Grouse populations have stabilized?

Apologies, I should have said status - based on a 2007 BWI survey for the NPWS, the government body who also deceide what birds go on the hunting list. The current reading for the status of this bird suggests some declines continue in outlying areas were availiable habitat continues to shrink while core areas like the Slieve Blooms and Wicklow Mtns NP have more or less stabilized recently. Indeed I visited both areas this summer and was delighted to see more family groups with youngsters then I've seen for manys a year:)

Traonach

Birdnuts wrote: »

Apologies, I should have said status - based on a 2007 BWI survey for the NPWS, the government body who also deceide what birds go on the hunting list. The current reading for the status of this bird suggests some declines continue in outlying areas were availiable habitat continues to shrink while core areas like the Slieve Blooms and Wicklow Mtns NP have more or less stabilized recently. Indeed I visited both areas this summer and was delighted to see more family groups with youngsters then I've seen for manys a year:)

The only two areas (slieve Blooms and Wicklow Mtns NP) where Red grouse have good numbers and healthy genetic diversity are also the areas where shooting of Red Grouse is not permitted:) It must be noted that good habitat is the reason why the numbers are good there.

LostCovey

Mickeroo wrote: »

I've never really seen shooting as a major problem in bird conservation as it is in the gun clubs best interest to have healthy populations of birds rather than the opposite. From what I've heard they are only happy to contribute to helping conservation for the most part.

I never said gun clubs were shooting Grouse...or Curlew or Golden Plover. In fact they seem to be highly responsible.

The whole problem is that Grouse shooting is in no way organised. Its a low level consistent pattern, but why not when its a legal free for all.

Shooting has been a major issue in bird conservation in the past, actually, and it was shooting that caused the extinction of Red Kite, Golden Eagle, White-tailed Eagle etc in Ireland.

LostCovey

LostCovey

Birdnuts wrote: »

With respect LC, there is no basis for those assertions. As Kess pointed out, Red Grouse populations have stabilized in recent years in this country(albeit at a low level). Ongoing declines in both breeding Golden Plover and Curlew are fundamentally linked to ongoing habitat destruction(I have personally witnessed the latter in Turlough country in SE Mayo). The miniscule chance of any of the tiny Irish breeding population of these 2 species being shot amongst the still robust wintering populations makes this rather a storm in a tea-cup IMO as regards the conservation of both birds. The fundemental issue for both species is stemming the tide of habitat loss, everything else is merely pointless window dressing!!.

I am going to give up on this shortly, because you are determined to ignore the fundamental issues, and trot out anecdotes.

You can forget about convincing farmers that a species is in danger if there's an open season to shoot it. The thing about different populations is a red herring - scientifically factual I agree, but it destroys the force of your argument. How many people shoot Curlew? Bugger all. So why not just address it?

Birdnuts

Traonach wrote: »

The only two areas (slieve Blooms and Wicklow Mtns NP) where Red grouse have good numbers and healthy genetic diversity are also the areas where shooting of Red Grouse is not permitted:) It must be noted that good habitat is the reason why the numbers are good there.

I know shooting is not allowed in the NP but it does occur just outside and in the Slieve Blooms - unless it has been stopped in the latter area very recently.

Below is a link to the survey which my reading of suggests a shrinkage in range rather then overall numbers - as it alludes to, areas that have seen shrinkage are the ones that have been hammered by the activities of Bord Na Mona and forestry operations that have destroyed remaining habitat:(


http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/Ourwork/SurveysProjects/RedGrouse/IrishPopulation/tabid/133/Default.aspx

LostCovey

Birdnuts wrote: »

Apologies, I should have said status - based on a 2007 BWI survey for the NPWS, the government body who also deceide what birds go on the hunting list. The current reading for the status of this bird suggests some declines continue in outlying areas were availiable habitat continues to shrink while core areas like the Slieve Blooms and Wicklow Mtns NP have more or less stabilized recently. Indeed I visited both areas this summer and was delighted to see more family groups with youngsters then I've seen for manys a year:)

I am delighted for you, but what you are saying here is that the populations "have more or less stabilised in some areas".

How is this a basis for a sustainable anual harvest?

LC

Mickeroo

LostCovey wrote: »

I never said gun clubs were shooting Grouse...or Curlew or Golden Plover. In fact they seem to be highly responsible.

The whole problem is that Grouse shooting is in no way organised. Its a low level consistent pattern, but why not when its a legal free for all.

Shooting has been a major issue in bird conservation in the past, actually, and it was shooting that caused the extinction of Red Kite, Golden Eagle, White-tailed Eagle etc in Ireland.

LostCovey

It's not a legal free for all, there's a short shooting season and then they are protected otherwise, anyone shooting without a permit or outside the season is a poacher and should be prosecuted.

I can't comment on Red Kite but Eagles became extinct more from egg thiefs and persecution due to the misconception of a threat to livestock(and babies :pac:) rather than recreational shooting.

LostCovey

Birdnuts wrote: »

I know shooting is not allowed in the NP but it does occur just outside and in the Slieve Blooms - unless it has been stopped in that area very recently.

Below is a link to the survey which my reading of suggests a shrinkage in range rather then overall numbers - as it alludes to areas that have seen shrinkage are the ones that have been hammerd by the activities of Bord Na Mona and forestry operations that have destroyed remaining habitat:(


http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/Ourwork/SurveysProjects/RedGrouse/IrishPopulation/tabid/133/Default.aspx

'Nature reserve' is the highest degree of protection that can be bestowed on wildlife habitat in Irish law.

What on earth do the fortunes of birds in nature reserves have to do with the rest of the country?

It's pretty weak case to suggest that as birds are doing OK on a nature reserve near where there is shooting, then ipso facto, its OK to have an open season on them throughout the country.

Birdnuts

LostCovey wrote: »

I am going to give up on this shortly, because you are determined to ignore the fundamental issues, and trot out anecdotes.

You can forget about convincing farmers that a species is in danger if there's an open season to shoot it. The thing about different populations is a red herring - scientifically factual I agree, but it destroys the force of your argument. How many people shoot Curlew? Bugger all. So why not just address it?

Thats fine LC - I'm not going to fall out with you over this, I just think you need to adress your concerns to the government agency that makes the calls on this

LostCovey

Mickeroo wrote: »

It's not a legal free for all, there's a short shooting season and then they are protected otherwise, anyone shooting without a permit or outside the season is a poacher and should be prosecuted.

I can't comment on Red Kite but Eagles became extinct more from egg thiefs and persecution due to the misconception of a threat to livestock(and babies :pac:) rather than recreational shooting.

It's a legal free for all during an 'open season' which is exactly what it says it is.

The last eagles were shot in Achill and Kerry as far as I know.

Birdnuts

LostCovey wrote: »

'Nature reserve' is the highest degree of protection that can be bestowed on wildlife habitat in Irish law.

What on earth do the fortunes of birds in nature reserves have to do with the rest of the country?

It's pretty weak case to suggest that as birds are doing OK on a nature reserve near where there is shooting, then ipso facto, its OK to have an open season on them throughout the country.

LC - do you seriously beleive hunters are going out of there way to knock off remaining birds on the remaining pockets of heather among BNM operations and forestry in the midlands and SW were the main shrinkages have been??, lets deal with reality here!!:rolleyes:

LostCovey

Birdnuts wrote: »

Thats fine LC - I'm not going to fall out with you over this, I just think you need to adress your concerns to the government agency that makes the calls on this

I am not going to fall out with anyone about this, but if people with your level of interest and expertise are ambivalent there is no hope.

Maybe this is exactly the sort of advice the govt is getting ("on the one hand, on the other hand, they're doing OK in the national parks, I saw several family groups last summer, those boyos draining the turloughs are the villains, blahdy blah). If so then I can see why a cute politician would see there was plenty of cover for them to do what they do best, make no changes, and just sign whatever orders were signed last year.

Least said soonest mended eh?

LostCovey

LostCovey

Birdnuts wrote: »

LC - do you seriously beleive hunters are going out of there way to knock off remaining birds on the remaining pockets of heather among BNM operations and forestry in the midlands and SW were the main shrinkages have been??, lets deal with reality here!!:rolleyes:

Roll your eyes all you want. I am talking about hills where there is no BNM, and forestry wis limited and well mature.

I know exactly what is going on in these areas, and yes, there are umpteen people who try to get a brace or two every year.

Some day they will shoot the last of them, and then I will stop bothering you all.