some programme advice needed please

wersal gummage

Hi there,

Have been in gyms for over ten years now, have a reasonably good idea of what I'm up to.

Last 12 months I've been doing a bodybuilder style workout - i.e. a four day split (shoulders, legs&lower back, chest&triceps, biceps&upper back). I tend to lift as heavy as I can 5x5 for six weeks or so, then switch to 4x10 for six weeks - and back and forth between these two. I train four days every week and some weeks I train a 5th day - the 5th day is always just legs done a second time. I am doing all the main compound lifts (except dead lifts) but also a fair bit of isolation work. I do a lot of core work too.

I've kind of hit a plateau the last while and I think I need a change. I know that the starting strength is touted on here a lot, however that doesn't suit me so much due a lower back injury I had a few years ago.

I'm thinking of just doing maybe a two day split of just the main compound lifts and leaving out a lot of the isolation work ??? Is this a better idea than what I'm doing at the moment ??

Alternatively, someone mentioned this 10x10 thing to me - has anyone any experience of this ??

http://www.weight-lifting-guide.com/10x10-volume-training.html

The only problem with that is that it suggests you cant really train two days in a row - this wouldn't be ideal for me.

Any other comments or suggestions would be great.

Thank very much.

Brian?

Moved from H&F, the first of many

the drifter

OP can you tell us what you would like too get out of your programme? what are your goals? then we can maybe make some suggestions as to where to go with your training.

wersal gummage

briankeating wrote: »

Moved from H&F, the first of many

Thanks. Sorry hadn't noticed this place popping up!

the drifter wrote: »

OP can you tell us what you would like too get out of your programme? what are your goals? then we can maybe make some suggestions as to where to go with your training.

Thanks. Yes that would have helped wouldn't it.

In short I suppose I'd like to put on a few KG..

At the moment I'm 90KG, 6' 3" and I would say about 11% body fat. I would like to get up to about 95KG while keeping the body fat down. If push came to shove, I'd rather stay how I am now than put on a few KG in exchange for going up in body fat. I am eating a surplus at the moment but haven't put on ANY weight in a while now. I think this is party down to a slight loss of intensity with my training - I think I'm a bit fed up and need a change...... I also know that people say there are no such things as hard gainers etc - just man up and eat more etc - and I would agree with that by and large - however, I do find it very hard to put on weight (I am eating a huge amount so dont really need any advice there).

murphthesmurf

Maybe try backing off the weight for a few weeks to give your body a slight break.
Don't bother with too many isolation movements. Eg chest, just do say, bench press, incline bench press, flat bench flyes. Don't bother with things like the pec deck or cable crossovers as they will be of no use to you.
I wouldn't do legs twice in a week, ever, they are your biggest muscle group and the most taxing on your body. Squatting uses around 14 different muscle groups.
You have most likely overtrained a little, just back off for a few weeks then build back up again.
It can be difficult and take a very long time to find a routine that suits you. What works miracles for 1 person might do nothing at all for you.
Adding 5kg is a very realistic goal, and there is no reason for you to not achieve it. It would be worth taking a 2nd look at your diet though, just to make sure your eating the right stuff. Eating a huge amount is great, if your eating the right things.
It can get very diss-heartening training week after week and not seeing the results. I've been there myself. I trained from when I was 18, and never gained an ounce untill I was around 23. I tried just about every routine I could think of. Overtraining is more often the cause than undertraining.
Good luck.

COH

wersal gummage wrote: »

T I am eating a surplus at the moment but haven't put on ANY weight in a while now.

Does not compute!

I think this is party down to a slight loss of intensity with my training - I think I'm a bit fed up and need a change...... I also know that people say there are no such things as hard gainers etc - just man up and eat more etc - and I would agree with that by and large - however, I do find it very hard to put on weight (I am eating a huge amount so dont really need any advice there).

Very few people find it 'easy' to add the right kind of weight. I spent years between 90 and 95kg thinking the same. I'm now ~105kg after months of consistently eating between meals The majority of people I see over estimate their calorie intake while 'bulking' and are too concerned with their image to add any bodyfat to make any tangible progress.

With regards to training, I base mine around 1 compound lift per session 3 days a week with accessory work after, and 1 day of upper body repetition work. As long as the training is consistently progressive you should see results. Bodypart splits are no different!

murphthesmurf wrote: »

You have most likely overtrained a little, just back off for a few weeks then build back up again.

I doubt its over training tbh. Its perfectly managable to train muscle groups more than once per week

wersal gummage

Thanks for the replies lads (or ladies?!).

I don't think I am overtraining. I take a week off every three months or so and haven't felt like I've overtrained in a long time.

I had a feeling it would come back to diet alright (this would be the first thing I would comment on if someone asked me something like what I've asked...). To be fair, I haven't counted my calories but I'm pretty sure I'm running a surplus.

Ok, so diet is as follows:

8am - teaspoon of glutamine in water while porridge (one cup oats, one cup milk, one cup water) is heating up.

8.20am: porridge as mentioned above. fish oils. scoop of protein in 300mls of milk. glass of fruit smoothie. avocado (50% of mornings probably with avocado).

10.45ish am - shake with one scoop protein, two scoops oats, one scoop maltodextrin.

1ish - two chicken fillets and half cup of brown rice with some chopped celery and or peppers

3ish - two chicken fillets and half cup of brown rice with some chopped celery and or peppers (the chicken fillets will be swapped for two tins of tuna every other day)

5ish - same shake as above.

on gym days - another shake after training.

8ish - something like 4 large scrambled eggs with 200grams of smoked salmon.

10.30 - three rice cakes smothered in peanut butter.

11.30ish - protein shake in 300mls of milk.


I go through 2 litres of milk a day (much of this taken up by the porridge and shakes in morning and night - shakes during day are in water). I would also have a double espresso every morning at some point and I would snack on cashew nuts, oranged, kiwis and put away some greek yogurt here and there - not a lot of this though. I am definitely down on vegetables but eat a lot more at weekends.

Weekends are a bit more varied as I have time to cook and eat more 'real food' - so the shakes are out really apart from after training.

The shakes are bulkpowders and nutrional info is:

100grames of oats = 361 cals, 11 grams protein, 61 grams carbs, 8 grams fat.

30gram scoop of protein = 24.6 grams protein. 118 cals.

maltodextrin.... no info provided....




Assuming diet is largely OK.... What about the training then ?? Does anyone have any comments on this 10x10 german volume training thing ??? I'm tempted to give it a bash for a few weeks.

murphthesmurf

Thats a fair amount of food alright.
The prob is most likely training related then I would expect. I've no experience of the 10x10 training you mentioned so couldn't comment.
I mentioned overtraining as you find with a lot of people that they get carried away with dozens of exercises. You seem to have a fair idea of what your upto.
What would be the break down of your training??

wersal gummage

I know I didn't get a whole lot of comments on this but just thought I'd update it.

More or less a month later. Have put on 5KG. I thought that this kind of weight gain was the stuff of steroids to be honest!! I would estimate that this is about 70/80% clean weight - I haven't taken body fat % yet but I would think it is still down at prob 12 or 13ish % as abdominal muscles are still clearly visible. Still fitting into all same trousers etc but not fitting into same shirts anymore (neck in particular).

So anyway, just a big thumbs up for the German volume training. Still have a few weeks of it left to go too:)

Satanta

That's great. Would you mind posting your schedule? I am looking at volume training or doggcrapp for the new year, but I think the volume training might be a bit too time consuming for me. I'd be curious to see what your schedule looks like.

wersal gummage

Satanta,

My schedule is just three days a week. Either Tue, Thur, Sat or sometimes Wed, Fri, Sun. This was a bit odd for me at the start as I was used to four and sometimes five days. I'm training for approx 1hr to 1hr 10 mins each time (I dont do any cardio apart from a 5 min warm up - I get my cardio done by cycling). I also haven't done a sit up in over a year.

Day 1: Squats, 10x10. 60 seconds rest between sets. Then I do 3x10 bulgarian split squats and 3x10 leg presss.

Seated military press (with olympic bar). 10x10 with sixty seconds rest between sets. Then 3x12 shrugs, 3x10 upright row, 3x10 side raises with dumbells.


Day 2: Wide grip chins. 10x10 with 60 second rests (i fail to do 10 from about 5th set, down to only 5 by 9th and 10th set).... Not ideal - If I was able to - I would do deadlifts or something here instead. 10x10 bench press. 3x10 incline dumbells, 3x10 flies, 3x10 of the sort of opposite of flies - for upper back, 3x10 inverted rows.


Day 3: Pull ups 10x10 (again this is repeating on wide grip chins to an extent and yet another reason to substitute the wide grip chins). Then straight into 10x10 weighted dips. Then 3x10 seated ezcurl bicep curls, 3x10 hammer curls, 3x10 standing dumbell curls, 3x10 narrow grip chest press (you know the tricep one), 3x10 tricep pull down with the rope.


There isn't a moment of the week that some part of me isn't hurting!

Duck's hoop

Hey Wersal,

Could you tell me what tempo you used? Or if you placed emphasis on this?

I've seen 4 and 5 second negatives recommended. Even with 60% RM that has to hurt huge?

murphthesmurf

Keep it up mate, 5 lbs is a good gain. It's just a matter of finding what suits you. Everyone is different. Does your back not allow deadlifting at all? how are you with bent rowing exercises. The bent over barbel row is great for working your entire back if you were looking to substitute the chin ups. You can do a lot more chin ups than me though, so you're not doing too bad.

wersal gummage

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Hey Wersal,

Could you tell me what tempo you used? Or if you placed emphasis on this?

I've seen 4 and 5 second negatives recommended. Even with 60% RM that has to hurt huge?

To be honest, I didn't really put that much thought into that side of it. I did 3 or 4 seconds in terms of releasing the weight on squats and bench for sure - on wide grip chins and pull ups - i couldn't (and still cant) get a full 10x10 so I never even attempted four or five seconds at that - just focused on good form.

murphthesmurf wrote: »

Keep it up mate, 5 lbs is a good gain. It's just a matter of finding what suits you. Everyone is different. Does your back not allow deadlifting at all? how are you with bent rowing exercises. The bent over barbel row is great for working your entire back if you were looking to substitute the chin ups. You can do a lot more chin ups than me though, so you're not doing too bad.

5 KILOS !! I have no back pain whatsoever and probably could deadlift, I just dont even try. I had a disc out of my back a few years ago and was told by my physio, who I really have a lot of time for, to never ever deadlift. The barbell row is also something I dont go near - but I do inverted rows with my feet up on a bench - which I know aren't the same, but as close as I'm gonna get.

ray jay

Good work, I'm starting GVT next week (may as well put those Christmas calories to good use) and if I get half the gains you managed I'll be delighted. Do you have any general advice or observations about the program?

wersal gummage wrote: »

The barbell row is also something I dont go near - but I do inverted rows with my feet up on a bench - which I know aren't the same, but as close as I'm gonna get.

How about dumbbell rows on a bench? I prefer these to barbell rows because there's more support for the back.

wersal gummage

ray jay wrote: »

Good work, I'm starting GVT next week (may as well put those Christmas calories to good use) and if I get half the gains you managed I'll be delighted. Do you have any general advice or observations about the program?
How about dumbbell rows on a bench? I prefer these to barbell rows because there's more support for the back.

sorry ray jay - just saw this today.

No general advice at all - it was my first time at it. I suppose I'd suggest to just think out your programme in advance. I didn't train much over christmas so I started back at this again about two weeks ago after a bit of a break. Good news for me is that the gains I made have stuck and actually at 96KG now. Think I'll try and hit about 97 or 98KG and then go on a bit of a cut.

Ray Mond

Hi op how long did u do the gvt for? I've started doing blaba 2 weeks in now, I did gbt but only did 3 weekss and got injured never got back to it, u seem http have got good results from it did u get much bigger at all ?