Sheep Scanning results

Username John

Hi folks,

I scanned the few sheep I have there yesterday... Very disappointed with the results.

Now, I only have 69, so it isnt a great sample for looking at %... but I wanted to include them, to see what other people get, even if its on larger numbers...

Empty - 10 (14% )
Singles - 24 ( 35% )
Twins - 33 ( 49% )
Triplets - 2 (3% )

I was expecting a few to be empty. But 10 ! ! ...
Of the 10 - few hoggets, few old sheep, few second-lambers...

The ram was with em for 5 weeks - I know longer would be better, but as I am working full time, I have to take holidays or get someone to help for lambing - so 5 weeks is long enough...

They were in good condition going with the ram, and have had excellent grass in front of them since...

They're Suffolks, and we have often had Christmas lambs, so dont think its an issue with it being too early for them. We only started scanning last year tho, and we had a few empty then, but not as many...

Thoughts?

Rovi

[MOD] Split off to a thread of its own. [/MOD]

whelan1

is ram away from them now? if so how long is he out?

supersean1999

69 seems a lot for a ram, perhaps thats the problem, sure let him out again a few lambs around paddy day wont be to bad, or else u have not left it long enough to scan them, some of them ten could of been tippped the last few days of the 5 weeks thats if them came into season at all

snowman707

supersean1999 wrote: »

69 seems a lot for a ram, perhaps thats the problem, sure him out again a few lambs abound paddy day wont be to bad, or else u have not left it long enough to scan them, some of them ten could of been tippped the last few days of the 5 weeks thats if them came into season at all

agree
a bit more time and more ram power

and also could be a bit early scanning

johngalway

I don't think I'd be happy either. Aren't the Oz and Kiwi fellas talking of well over 100 per ram, and I have heard of a lot more than that. Yet here 70 is too many?

Username John

Thanks for replies all.

supersean1999 wrote: »

69 seems a lot for a ram, perhaps thats the problem, sure him out again a few lambs abound paddy day wont be to bad, or else u have not left it long enough to scan them, some of them ten could of been tippped the last few days of the 5 weeks thats if them came into season at all

Sorry - first posts should have said "rams" There was actually two rams with them, so ram power you would imagine should surely be enough at about 35 each...
JohnGalway - I have read that lads in NZ do say over 100 per ram is ok... I dunno...

Bit early scanning - maybe.
They are due to lamb start of Jan, so it would only be about 80 days from when the ram first went in. I gave the scanning guy the dates the ram was in and twas he said when they should be scanned. He did say they prob could have done with an extra week maybe...
You are right tho, its only around 6 weeks from when the ram was taken away. I can see from dates (from the raddle colour) that one or two were tipped in the last week. - is it possible that they are in-lamb, and they wouldnt have been picked up in the scan?

No - am wrong - reviewing the dates again - the empty ones werent tipped in the last week. And I can see sheep which were tipped (for the first time) in the last few days, and are showing up as in-young... So I think the scanner is right...

Re the time - I am going to get a teaser ram next year, try to improve the time element and get more cycling before the 'real' rams go in.
But I still dont want to leave the rams in more than 5 weeks - I know maybe tis a short enough time period, but with working full time, tis long enough (for me)

Thanks again.

PS - Thanks for moving into seperate thread Rovi.

supersean1999

well it does not take a lot to effect a ram sore foot etc, id advice you to put the ram in with the ten again a march lamb is a lot better than none , no matter what your set up, as for the 100 sheep to a ram best of luck with that, u might get lucky, also the breed, age, and conditions, makes a big difference cant really compare a 3yr mayo mountain ram to a hogget texel,

rancher

Username John wrote: »

Thanks for replies all.



Sorry - first posts should have said "rams" There was actually two rams with them, so ram power you would imagine should surely be enough at about 35 each...
JohnGalway - I have read that lads in NZ do say over 100 per ram is ok... I dunno...

Bit early scanning - maybe.
They are due to lamb start of Jan, so it would only be about 80 days from when the ram first went in. I gave the scanning guy the dates the ram was in and twas he said when they should be scanned. He did say they prob could have done with an extra week maybe...
You are right tho, its only around 6 weeks from when the ram was taken away. I can see from dates (from the raddle colour) that one or two were tipped in the last week. - is it possible that they are in-lamb, and they wouldnt have been picked up in the scan?

No - am wrong - reviewing the dates again - the empty ones werent tipped in the last week. And I can see sheep which were tipped (for the first time) in the last few days, and are showing up as in-young... So I think the scanner is right...

Re the time - I am going to get a teaser ram next year, try to improve the time element and get more cycling before the 'real' rams go in.
But I still dont want to leave the rams in more than 5 weeks - I know maybe tis a short enough time period, but with working full time, tis long enough (for me)

Thanks again.

PS - Thanks for moving into seperate thread Rovi.

Good operators will scan from 28 days inlamb, adult rams should cover 70 ewes but its good practise to have a another as insurance

flatout11

put the ram back out with the emptys for 3 weeks and sell them in lamb next spring
that gets around the labour constraint and will pocket you a nice few yoyos next spring

in regard to the barren rateyou didnt give them long enough with him, early in the season you wouldnt expect them all to be cycling

snowman707

Username John wrote: »

Thanks for replies all.



Sorry - first posts should have said "rams" There was actually two rams with them, so ram power you would imagine should surely be enough at about 35 each...
JohnGalway - I have read that lads in NZ do say over 100 per ram is ok... I dunno...

Bit early scanning - maybe.
They are due to lamb start of Jan, so it would only be about 80 days from when the ram first went in. I gave the scanning guy the dates the ram was in and twas he said when they should be scanned. He did say they prob could have done with an extra week maybe...
You are right tho, its only around 6 weeks from when the ram was taken away. I can see from dates (from the raddle colour) that one or two were tipped in the last week. - is it possible that they are in-lamb, and they wouldnt have been picked up in the scan?

No - am wrong - reviewing the dates again - the empty ones werent tipped in the last week. And I can see sheep which were tipped (for the first time) in the last few days, and are showing up as in-young... So I think the scanner is right...

Re the time - I am going to get a teaser ram next year, try to improve the time element and get more cycling before the 'real' rams go in.
But I still dont want to leave the rams in more than 5 weeks - I know maybe tis a short enough time period, but with working full time, tis long enough (for me)

Thanks again.

PS - Thanks for moving into seperate thread Rovi.

IMO a teaser ram won't help much if you are still going that early

here we let lambing dates slip back a couple of weeks for a couples of different reasons and found our lambing % increased as result, I know this is not an option in your case

sponging might be one option but you would need increased ram power

you may also consider flushing the ewes and rams with a small amount of meal for a month or so before mating , a lady vet whom i have great time for when seeking advise on sheep once recommended this.

razor8

dont want to scare the bejaysus out of ya, but i had a lot of empties last year 25 out of 220. when scanning took place the scanner said i had a few dead lambs in ewes and when lambing came i had an outbreak of abortion. vet told me that this could have effected the empty ewes and they may have aborted before the scanning

did you buy sheep this year? i blamed my problem on ewe lambs i bought last year. i vacinated this year to be sure

its probably not the cause of your problem, but its one theory

5live

johngalway wrote: »

I don't think I'd be happy either. Aren't the Oz and Kiwi fellas talking of well over 100 per ram, and I have heard of a lot more than that. Yet here 70 is too many?

Pedigree sheep a lot softer here john (says he, opening a storm from PB breeders). Down under, they breed sheep for results and they are selected for those results. If they dont match the minimum required, they are culled, not fed on for breeding. If you want a comparison, take NZ suffolk and Irish suffolk.

And before suffolk breeders take a shot, i am just using the breed as a comparison as both types are in the country right now

johngalway

I think you could be right there 5live, but you'd better duck & cover now

5live

Busy filling sandbags as we post;)

Username John

snowman707 wrote: »

IMO a teaser ram won't help much if you are still going that early

here we let lambing dates slip back a couple of weeks for a couples of different reasons and found our lambing % increased as result, I know this is not an option in your case

sponging might be one option but you would need increased ram power

you may also consider flushing the ewes and rams with a small amount of meal for a month or so before mating , a lady vet whom i have great time for when seeking advise on sheep once recommended this.

Hi Snowman,
I have a ram lamb, and there is an operation in his future, so he will be a teaser next year. We'll see how it goes, sure if it works, great, if not - nothing really lost.

If anything, I would nearly prefer to bring them forward (to suit holidays) But we'll have to see how we go.

Sponging - nah, no interest in going down that route to be honest.

I read about flushing before, and we *try* to put the sheep on good grass about a month before they go with the ram.
Altho being understocked, they nearly always have good enough grass, so not sure it makes that much difference...

razor8 wrote: »

dont want to scare the bejaysus out of ya, but i had a lot of empties last year 25 out of 220. when scanning took place the scanner said i had a few dead lambs in ewes and when lambing came i had an outbreak of abortion. vet told me that this could have effected the empty ewes and they may have aborted before the scanning

did you buy sheep this year? i blamed my problem on ewe lambs i bought last year. i vacinated this year to be sure

its probably not the cause of your problem, but its one theory

Jesus Razor I hope not...
I didnt buy anything this year, last purchase was about Sept last year. So hopefully this isnt the case...
Will make a few phone calls, and see whats the best thing to do... The scanner didnt say anything re dead lambs, altho not sure thats a definitive "all is ok" either.
Razor - when and what did vaccinate with?

5live wrote: »

Pedigree sheep a lot softer here john (says he, opening a storm from PB breeders). Down under, they breed sheep for results and they are selected for those results. If they dont match the minimum required, they are culled, not fed on for breeding. If you want a comparison, take NZ suffolk and Irish suffolk.

And before suffolk breeders take a shot, i am just using the breed as a comparison as both types are in the country right now

Would have to agree 5Live - from what I read of the NZ Suffolk. There was a very good thread about them on the BFF there earlier in the year I thnk.
But - whilst I agree, I still went out and bought 2 Suffolks rams last year, so not sure what that says... :rolleyes:

Thanks for responses all.

rancher

This is my system of mating for compact lambing. after weaning or at least 8 weeks before mating, put ewes on bare ground at 20 ewes/acre.4 weeks before mating put ewes on very good grass. 2 weeks before mating put rams next to the ewes, preferably only sheep wire between them as ditches doesn't allow enough contact. two weeks later,let them in.
Two important points: 1. ewes should not be within sight or smell of the rams for 6 weeks before you put them next to them,
2. ewes should not be over fat, ewes on good grass ALL the time WILL get overfat resulting in poor conception.

razor8

Jesus Razor I hope not...
I didnt buy anything this year, last purchase was about Sept last year. So hopefully this isnt the case...
Will make a few phone calls, and see whats the best thing to do... The scanner didnt say anything re dead lambs, altho not sure thats a definitive "all is ok" either.
Razor - when and what did vaccinate with?


I vaccinated with toxovax and enzovax which covers both toxoplasmosis and enzootic abortion. it proved near impossible to get these this year but eventually i did, one shot covers them for there lifetime, 5 years plus they say. they have to get the vaccination about 4 weeks before mating. im alot more optimistic going into next seasons lambing. but sure some other problem will probably crop up

glenkeo

rancher wrote: »

This is my system of mating for compact lambing. after weaning or at least 8 weeks before mating, put ewes on bare ground at 20 ewes/acre.4 weeks before mating put ewes on very good grass. 2 weeks before mating put rams next to the ewes, preferably only sheep wire between them as ditches doesn't allow enough contact. two weeks later,let them in.
Two important points: 1. ewes should not be within sight or smell of the rams for 6 weeks before you put them next to them,
2. ewes should not be over fat, ewes on good grass ALL the time WILL get overfat resulting in poor conception.

I try to do this every year, the most important thing is to keep all rams far away from ewes for 28days or longer and hopefully your neighbour does not but his rams next to yours ewes(liked happened last year). I noticed a big difference at lambing, I lamb outside and most off the ewes lamb in 1st 16 days and just repeats and a few other left after that, I have ram beside ewes for 12 days now and notice 3 or 4 down beside him most days.

5live

rancher wrote: »

This is my system of mating for compact lambing. after weaning or at least 8 weeks before mating, put ewes on bare ground at 20 ewes/acre.4 weeks before mating put ewes on very good grass. 2 weeks before mating put rams next to the ewes, preferably only sheep wire between them as ditches doesn't allow enough contact. two weeks later,let them in.
Two important points: 1. ewes should not be within sight or smell of the rams for 6 weeks before you put them next to them,
2. ewes should not be over fat, ewes on good grass ALL the time WILL get overfat resulting in poor conception.

+1. Excellent post. So simple but most struggle to achieve it

rancher

razor8 wrote: »

Jesus Razor I hope not...

I vaccinated with toxovax and enzovax which covers both toxoplasmosis and enzootic abortion. it proved near impossible to get these this year but eventually i did, one shot covers them for there lifetime, 5 years plus they say. they have to get the vaccination about 4 weeks before mating. im alot more optimistic going into next seasons lambing. but sure some other problem will probably crop up

Vaccine very hard to get, I got toxovac alright but could only get enough enzovac to give half rate to ALL my ewe lambs, other option was full rate to half the ewe lambs, so here's hoping they all have enough immunity.
Regarding ram effect, experts tell us ewes more prone to have singles from the first heat, so it's good to get it over in the teasing period.

Username John

rancher wrote: »

This is my system of mating for compact lambing. after weaning or at least 8 weeks before mating, put ewes on bare ground at 20 ewes/acre.4 weeks before mating put ewes on very good grass. 2 weeks before mating put rams next to the ewes, preferably only sheep wire between them as ditches doesn't allow enough contact. two weeks later,let them in.
Two important points: 1. ewes should not be within sight or smell of the rams for 6 weeks before you put them next to them,
2. ewes should not be over fat, ewes on good grass ALL the time WILL get overfat resulting in poor conception.

Hi Rancher,
Thanks for post.
I am trying to work towards that system (by setting up paddocks & seperate fields) I am getting there slowly.

* I think* most of my sheep werent overfat. It was something I was conscious of and I was trying to score their body condition as best I could.
Now - there was one or two all right. One especially, who didnt have lambs last year, and again this year, so she will be going fairly soon.

But yeah - I definitely need to improve on the grass management, which will hopefully improve things as you say above.

Thanks for post.

Username John

Just an update on this - might be related, might not.

I got a FEC sample done, and it turns out the sheep were positive fluke (there was no count for fluke, just a positive). I suspected they might after I did some more investigating.
Apparently, this can affect conception rates, so it *might* have contributed to the poor results. Maybe...

Just putting it up as I said it might be useful for someone.

I wish I had checked a few months ago

razor8

Username John wrote: »

Just an update on this - might be related, might not.

I got a FEC sample done, and it turns out the sheep were positive fluke (there was no count for fluke, just a positive). I suspected they might after I did some more investigating.
Apparently, this can affect conception rates, so it *might* have contributed to the poor results. Maybe...

Just putting it up as I said it might be useful for someone.

I wish I had checked a few months ago

don't you dose for fluke over the year?

Username John

razor8 wrote: »

don't you dose for fluke over the year?

No.

Well, I did the very start of the year. But not in June when I prob should have.

I would have said we had a dry farm, so I didnt think the risk of fluke during the summer was high - I was very wrong.

Does everyone dose regularly for fluke? If so, how often?

razor8

Username John wrote: »

No.

Well, I did the very start of the year. But not in June when I prob should have.

I would have said we had a dry farm, so I didnt think the risk of fluke during the summer was high - I was very wrong.

Does everyone dose regularly for fluke? If so, how often?

I dose every 8-10 weeks in the winter time (I usually have sheep out until 6 weeks before lambing) and stretch it out to maybe max 14 weeks in summer, same as you I got caught out about 4 years ago and left them for 3 months over winter and ended up with thin ewes at lambing time, I had to use a lot of meal to compensate, so now I always try to stay ahead of it. I usually alternate between flukivor and trodax and use something different over the summer time. I would consider my farm fairly dry

Username John

Said I'd post up an update...

Got another FEC done on the ewes - no liver fluke this time (altho my understanding is FEC tests for liver fluke is a bit hit and miss) But it was positive this time for Rumen fluke...
So I must dose with Zanil now...

I also gave all sheep & hoggets SE & CO bolus there a few weeks ago - like this & this
I was planning on getting some blood tests done, but I usually buy some mineral buckets around lambing, which at 15 - 20 euro each, doesnt long be adding up. So I said I would get the bolus instead. We'll see how it goes...
I might still get some bloods done...

roosky

scanned yesterday 40 ewes ....
1 triplet
7 sngles
32 doubles

happy out all n lamb

had 15 ewe lambs didn go so well 5 emptys, 2 doubles and 8 singles whats the crack with that they were all run together with ewes so why such a difference

rancher

roosky wrote: »

scanned yesterday 40 ewes ....
1 triplet
7 sngles
32 doubles

happy out all n lamb

had 15 ewe lambs didn go so well 5 emptys, 2 doubles and 8 singles whats the crack with that they were all run together with ewes so why such a difference

Follow up to my mating post...160 ewes
34 triplets
10 singles
4 barren, but will be scanned again
112 doubles
ewes are lleyns out of suffolk and texel ewes
scanner said most were between 65 and 75 days inlamb, so the teasing worked really well,
On ewelambs, I find that the best results are got if they're mated in november, and they're not run with mature ewes,

Michelle1000

Does anyone have a number for a sheep scanner Carlow area for 37 sheep. Please pm me.