DPF filters- watchdog

Typhoon.

anyone see watchdog on BBC tonight? there was a piece in it about DPF filters clogging up because of city driving, and manufacturers respose being "well we never marketed our diesel car for city driving" (FIAT's response). Nissans response was "we would recommend one of our petrol or electric cars for short journeys"

You guys(motor forum) have been pointing this out for a long time now, I bet the car sales people weren't as helpful when selling the cars

ronaneire

Typhoon. wrote: »

anyone see watchdog on BBC tonight? there was a piece in it about DPF filters clogging up because of city driving, and manufacturers respose being "well we never marketed our diesel car for city driving" (FIAT's response). Nissans response was "we would recommend one of our petrol or electric cars for short journeys"

You guys(motor forum) have been pointing this out for a long time now, I bet the car sales people weren't as helpful when selling the cars

I suppose anyone who knows anything would realise that buying a diesel and just using it for short trips and city driving, that diesel really isn't an option.

Plug

Way too much to go wrong with these exhaust treatment systems:
Exhaust heater(optional), Oxidation catalyst, temperature sensors, broadband lambda sensor, NOx storage catalyst, NOx sensor, additives and more. Some cars have these others wont have them all. With the turbo on the exhaust system too, the whole thing is worth about 5 grand. Even though petrol is more expensive and less economical it will end up cheaper in the long run if you plan on keeping it for a good while.

bazz26

Plug wrote: »

Way too much to go wrong with these exhaust treatment systems:
Exhaust heater(optional), Oxidation catalyst, temperature sensors, broadband lambda sensor, NOx storage catalyst, NOx sensor, additives and more. Some cars have these others wont have them all. With the turbo on the exhaust system too, the whole thing is worth about 5 grand. Even though petrol is more expensive and less economical it will end up cheaper in the long run if you plan on keeping it for a good while.

Yes but to Joe Public here in Ireland €104/€156 motor tax and a saving of 7c per litre when filling up is all that really matters.

FGR

In fairness I was warned by my dealer when I was about to order my diesel Octavia.

I'm sure his colleagues who haven't matched their quotas may not have been so obliging though.

johnos1984

ronaneire wrote: »

I suppose anyone who knows anything would realise that buying a diesel and just using it for short trips and city driving, that diesel really isn't an option.

I know someone who was sold a new Focus 5 months ago who only does city driving.

Salesman (who is a know twat in a garage which will rename nameless) sold the car to an elderly female driver who only uses it for short trips in Dublin.

I met her the evening she bought it as she didn't know how to turn the lights, wipers etc on/off.

I warned her to make sure and give it a good drive once a week or else it would give trouble. So far it's been back to the garage 4 times.

I had tried a few months before she bought to convince her petrol was better but the salesman said otherwise :rolleyes:

dr.fuzzenstein

ronaneire wrote: »

I suppose anyone who knows anything would realise that buying a diesel and just using it for short trips and city driving, that diesel really isn't an option.

Absolutely, but the average Mad Mary or Joe Bloggs don't know that.
Also, salesmen are notorious for not having a bollocks clue about tech stuff, that's why they're salesmen.
The tech is still too new to have all the bugs ironed out, so people are doing the long term testing for the manufacturer.
Of course, the manufacturers know all this very well, so they throw in lengthy warranties to lull people into a false sense of security, because when it all does go bang, they can claim "improper usage" and you're left with the bill.
Of course I'm being cynical here, but why design a car that will do some kinds of driving, but not others?
Of course I could just blame the lefty, looney, tree-hugging sandal wearing brigade, so I will.
Or, as they say, that's progress! (when will I grow up?);)

Matt Simis

The F in DPF stands for Filter..
I thought it almost common knowledge that diesels suck for short trips for a variety of reasons, Ive spoken to "normal" non-Car people and they mentioned casually too.

shedweller

Wasn't the DPF introduced as a result of increased soot due to the implementation of exhaust gas recirculation? The EGR of course was to lower NOx but it caused a large increase of soot emissions. Whats the average before and after on the NOx figures? Does the EGR help that much? There needs to be another, simpler way.

bandit14

bazz26 wrote: »

Yes but to Joe Public here in Ireland €104/€156 motor tax and a saving of 7c per litre when filling up is all that really matters.

Well people! to all those who have a city driving cycle in a diesel car...And who want cheap tax and fuel... Here is the answer...Buddy had a problem with mothers VW passat 2008... Particulate light on,power down,no pressure in exhaust!sound familar?Here is the answer=Used NEW DPF Cleaner circa €35/€40 to add to diesel tank,problem solved in jig time!!!(20/30clicks) Mammy Happy,saves going back to MEEN DEALER paying €500 to fix same problem.

Typhoon.

Matt Simis wrote: »

The F in DPF stands for Filter..
I thought it almost common knowledge that diesels suck for short trips for a variety of reasons, Ive spoken to "normal" non-Car people and they mentioned casually too.

Doh:D

bazz26

bandit14 wrote: »

Well people! to all those who have a city driving cycle in a diesel car...And who want cheap tax and fuel... Here is the answer...Buddy had a problem with mothers VW passat 2008... Particulate light on,power down,no pressure in exhaust!sound familar?Here is the answer=Used NEW DPF Cleaner circa €35/€40 to add to diesel tank,problem solved in jig time!!!(20/30clicks) Mammy Happy,saves going back to MEEN DEALER paying €500 to fix same problem.

A diesel car is not that more economical over a similar petrol car in city driving or short trips. It takes a diesel engine about 30 mins of driving before it warms up to optimal temperature so while it is warming up it is using more fuel.

Also the additive your talking about will not fix the problem long term, it may only eleviate it for a while but eventually the DPF will get completely blocked if the regeneration cycle doesn't complete. In order for a full DPF regeneration cycle to complete the car needs to be driven for at 30 mins at between 1500 and 2000 rpm.

The fact is that if we went back to the pre 2008 days tomorrow where diesel cars cost more to buy and tax than petrol cars then the Irish public would not be so smitten with them.

Gary ITR

We are doing a silly amount of DPF deletes in work now, every one is the same story, city driving = clogged filter.
The cost to replace a lump of charcoal like substance encassed in a bit of steel is disgraceful too

vectra

bazz26 wrote: »

A diesel car is not that more economical over a similar petrol car in city driving or short trips. It takes a diesel engine about 30 mins of driving before it warms up to optimal temperature so while it is warming up it is using more fuel.

Also the additive your talking about will not fix the problem long term, it may only eleviate it for a while but eventually the DPF will get completely blocked if the regeneration cycle doesn't complete. In order for a full DPF regeneration cycle to complete the car needs to be driven for at 30 mins at between 1500 and 2000 rpm.

The fact is that if we went back to the pre 2008 days tomorrow where diesel cars cost more to buy and tax than petrol cars then the Irish public would not be so smitten with them.

Thats funny. My main dealer said to drive between 2k and 2.5k to clear it.

BostonB

ronaneire wrote: »

I suppose anyone who knows anything would realise that buying a diesel and just using it for short trips and city driving, that diesel really isn't an option.

What about taxi's and buses, and delivery trucks?

The old (non DPF diesel) diesels had no problems around the city and still delivered fuel savings over a petrol car for that kind of driving.

Didn't they bring back some non DPF diesels exactly for this reason?

um7y1h83ge06nx

Decent piece here:

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/fuels-and-environment/diesel-particulate-filters.html

spank_inferno

When we were picking up our Yeti, the dealer gave us a run down on the DPF and asked us to sign an "acknowledgement" before we signed anything else.

Probably just to cover their own backsides

EPM

Gary ITR wrote: »

We are doing a silly amount of DPF deletes in work now, every one is the same story, city driving = clogged filter.
The cost to replace a lump of charcoal like substance encassed in a bit of steel is disgraceful too

I think this is the bit I have such an issue with. Surely these things can be designed in such a way that they are easily accessible and renewed service items. It's quite obvious that while they are designed to last the life of the car that's not going to happen in a lot of cases.

//dpf victim

BostonB

Some cars give you a warning light that you need to give the car a run to clear the filter.

How well that works in real life in prolonging the filter I have no idea.

Seems like an imperfect technology if you ask me.

V Eight

The owners manal explains just about everything people need to know about their car including clearing the diesel particle filter....I think most people don't bother to read the manuals or don't realise how much good info is contained in them......

BostonB

I wonder how many are told about this issue before they buy the car though.

n97 mini

BostonB wrote: »

The old (non DPF diesel) diesels had no problems around the city

At what cost tho? Everything has been blackened by those yokes.

Raskolnikov

V Eight wrote: »

The owners manal explains just about everything people need to know about their car including clearing the diesel particle filter....I think most people don't bother to read the manuals or don't realise how much good info is contained in them......

Couldn't agree more!]

The attitude here is to buy the newest, cheapest, least-specced car you can find, don't read a manual, don't service it, and run it into the ground.

BostonB

n97 mini wrote: »

At what cost tho? Everything has been blackened by those yokes.

Thats a different issue. I was purely commenting on the suitability of diesel for short urban journeys.

BostonB

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Couldn't agree more!]

The attitude here is to buy the newest, cheapest, least-specced car you can find, don't read a manual, don't service it, and run it into the ground.

Hows the 1990 S class working out for you then?

R.O.R

BostonB wrote: »

I wonder how many are told about this issue before they buy the car though.

Most of the cars fitted with a DPF come with an annoying swing tag hanging off an indicator stalk, informing you of the correct procedures to follow for trouble free motoring. If it's not a swing tag, there is a small booklet.

Whether people take the time to read, or understand these things, is another matter.

Tea 1000

BostonB wrote: »

The old (non DPF diesel) diesels had no problems around the city

Not really, the EGR valve is another victim of city driving, and in some cars the symptoms are not as obvious as in others, which can lead to other more expensive issues.

BostonB

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Not really, the EGR valve is another victim of city driving, and in some cars the symptoms are not as obvious as in others, which can lead to other more expensive issues.

We had a few taxi's in the family, all with 250k+ on the clock and never had those issues. But maybe ours were not representative of the average I dunno.

BostonB

R.O.R wrote: »

Most of the cars fitted with a DPF come with an annoying swing tag hanging off an indicator stalk, informing you of the correct procedures to follow for trouble free motoring. If it's not a swing tag, there is a small booklet.

Whether people take the time to read, or understand these things, is another matter.

About a year or two ago, I spent a good bit of time shopping for cars, and have to say in about 10 garages visited I never saw any of these tags, booklets. We have one diesel in the family at the moment, bought about 4 yrs ago, in a main dealer and certainly at that time, there was no mention, of the DPF issues.

Maybe they have them now, or perhaps my experience isn't representative.

dr.fuzzenstein

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Couldn't agree more!]

The attitude here is to buy the newest, cheapest, least-specced car you can find, don't read a manual, don't service it, and run it into the ground.

And then sell it with "full service history, one careful owner, serviced on the button, lovingly cared for" and charge 20% over list price because it's "a gem". With three buckled wheels, because people here aim for potholes and take them at full tilt.

Marlow

BostonB wrote: »

What about taxi's and buses, and delivery trucks?

The old (non DPF diesel) diesels had no problems around the city and still delivered fuel savings over a petrol car for that kind of driving.

Didn't they bring back some non DPF diesels exactly for this reason?

n97 mini wrote: »

At what cost tho? Everything has been blackened by those yokes.

The DPF does not do anything to change that fact. All the DPF does is collect the stuff and burn it off, either when you're at higher rev's and higher speed or in the case of for example the Chrysler Diesels, whenever the thing is full (no matter if you're in the city or not) and then it's even worse than a non-DPF diesel.

It's the biggest scam ever.

V Eight wrote: »

The owners manal explains just about everything people need to know about their car including clearing the diesel particle filter....I think most people don't bother to read the manuals or don't realise how much good info is contained in them......

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Couldn't agree more!]

The attitude here is to buy the newest, cheapest, least-specced car you can find, don't read a manual, don't service it, and run it into the ground.

Aye. Most cars you'd buy second hand either don't have the manual OR the manual is still wrapped, brand new, in the glove compartment.

/M

astrofool

Have an 11 C-Max, and used mostly on the motorway/dual carriageway, most trips are 15-30 minutes, but on the odd occasion, when the DPF cycle started to run during a short trip, it would stay running once we reached the destination, and usually be finished in about 5-10 mins.

Will see how the servicing over the next few years, but seems grand so far.

knifey_spoonie

The unfortunate thing about most Irish people is they are unwilling to believe anything that someone who works in a garage tells them. People seem preprogramed to completly ignore all advice given by the sales person with regard to what they should buy, mainly because they think they are always trying to screw them.

When people now go shopping for a car they more than likely don't know what marque or model they are buying but one thing they do know is that it has to be diesel. I would say 80-90% of cars above B segment are diesel. The customer has allready sold themselves a diesel long before they have even steped into the showroom, from a sales point of view its very hard to take someone out of the diesel mindset and convince them that petrol is better for them. I would says its nearly akin to making 2 sales, firstly you must sell them the petrol engine, then you must go onto selling the correct vehicle for them.

Its much easier for the sales person not to rip to pieces there preconcived ideas that diesel is the only option. Most will just go and sell the customer what they want without informing them of the possible problems down the line. I suppose it just proves that the customer is not allways right.

In reality the most a good sales person can do is spend a couple of minutes trying to explain why the person sould not buy a diesel but for the most part it falls on deaf ears.

turbodiesel

astrofool wrote: »

Have an 11 C-Max, and used mostly on the motorway/dual carriageway, most trips are 15-30 minutes, but on the odd occasion, when the DPF cycle started to run during a short trip, it would stay running once we reached the destination, and usually be finished in about 5-10 mins.

Will see how the servicing over the next few years, but seems grand so far.

But then that makes a false economy for anyone that has bought a diesel to save on fuel alone........

astrofool

turbodiesel wrote: »

But then that makes a false economy for anyone that has bought a diesel to save on fuel alone........

eh?

The regen cycle doesn't happen that often.

For fuel/cost comparison, previously I drove a 1.4 Fusion. It's costing a bit more to fill up the C-Max (bigger tank), but I get about another 2-300km per tank, depending on the type of driving, and tax is half the price (so another 2 fill ups for free).

I also get to pay less VRT when I buy it.

bandit14

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Not really, the EGR valve is another victim of city driving, and in some cars the symptoms are not as obvious as in others, which can lead to other more expensive issues.

Good news Tea 1000 along with using that DPF cleaner,my buddy now uses a specific EGR valve spray which he says is magic!just take of the pipe from the turbo to air inlet cleaner and spray into inlet manifold,spray cheap as chips and he says at the job they now use at service intervals for problem makes.

dr.fuzzenstein

bandit14 wrote: »

Good news Tea 1000 along with using that DPF cleaner,my buddy now uses a specific EGR valve spray which he says is magic!just take of the pipe from the turbo to air inlet cleaner and spray into inlet manifold,spray cheap as chips and he says at the job they now use at service intervals for problem makes.

Someone recommended hydraulic oil in with the diesel to clean the gunk out, sounds a bit iffy to me, anyone else heard that?

bandit14

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Someone recommended hydraulic oil in with the diesel to clean the gunk out, sounds a bit iffy to me, anyone else heard that?

Not sure about that one myself,it would help compression alright,but as for cleaning ability i have my doubts,much easier to purchase a proper cleaner,any good factor should have it.