How come NZ are so good at rucks?

d2ww

First of all, I'm not an expert. But one thing that really strikes me about the All Blacks is how effective they are rucks and particularly counter rucking. Is it simply fearless aggression, or do they form 2,3 or 4 cells as they are running towards the breakdown and hit it as a unit driving over and past the ball? Also, if they are hitting the ruck at greater speed than other teams, how come they are not more prone to injury?
Thanks.

totallegend

d2ww wrote: »

First of all, I'm not an expert. But one thing that really strikes me about the All Blacks is how effective they are rucks and particularly counter rucking. Is it simply fearless aggression, or do they form 2,3 or 4 cells as they are running towards the breakdown and hit it as a unit driving over and past the ball? Also, if they are hitting the ruck at greater speed than other teams, how come they are not more prone to injury?
Thanks.

They leave one guy on the opponent's side of the ruck which makes it much harder for the other team to compete. Why don't other teams do this? Because they get penalised. How can NZ get away with it? Because they have a magic shield of invisibility.

Simple really.

Fishooks12

Good back row

Aggressive second row

Mobile props

even the backs can counter ruck, corey jane last week anyone?

Counter rucking tactic that they implement very well

good coaching

I reckon they're just as prone to injury as the rest of us, they're not superhuman!

WeeBushy

totallegend wrote: »

They leave one guy on the opponent's side of the ruck which makes it much harder for the other team to compete. Why don't other teams do this? Because they get penalised. How can NZ get away with it? Because they have a magic shield of invisibility.

Simple really.

See, I'm inclined to disagree with you as to why they don't get penalised. I think its because they are far more savy at knowing where they can push things, what they can get away with, and what the particular ref is like. It's something I actually admire a lot, that they know what they can get away with. You never hear a word of complaint if an Irish team are able to get away with things.

I don't buy into the 'refs are afraid to penalise the ABs'.

Fishooks12

WeeBushy wrote: »

See, I'm inclined to disagree with you as to why they don't get penalised. I think its because they are far more savy at knowing where they can push things, what they can get away with, and what the particular ref is like. It's something I actually admire a lot, that they know what they can get away with. You never hear a word of complaint if an Irish team are able to get away with things.

I don't buy into the 'refs are afraid to penalise the ABs'.

McCaw gets away with murder

We saw that in the Argentinian game

WeeBushy

Fishooks12 wrote: »

McCaw gets away with murder

We saw that in the Argentinian game

And I think that's down to great play by McCaw, knowing what he can get away with. Kinda like when I play a J4 match against a team of 40 year olds. They know exactly what they can get away with and how to play the ref. They get away with things that I would never be able to.

I don't mean to back away, but this is quite a devisive argument, and one I just don't have time for today to get involved in. So I'm not going to post any more on the topic. I probably shouldn't have posted in the first place then... ah well.

Fishooks12

WeeBushy wrote: »

And I think that's down to great play by McCaw, knowing what he can get away with. Kinda like when I play a J4 match against a team of 40 year olds. They know exactly what they can get away with and how to play the ref. They get away with things that I would never be able to.

I don't mean to back away, but this is quite a devisive argument, and one I just don't have time for today to get involved in. So I'm not going to post any more on the topic. I probably shouldn't have posted in the first place then... ah well.

I'll get the last word so :P

I agree with you that I wouldn't blame McCaw for it, he's the best 7 in the history of the game, sure didn't Alan Quinlan do it for Munster for years and we loved him!

I think McCaw gets away with stuff that other 7s wouldn't though, simply because he's Richie McCaw.

GerM

I don't know, WB. In the Australia game, I think Joubert was fair and even handed. But against Argentina, NZ were treated quite differently to their opponents. When NZ went into contact, Owens could be clearly calling for Argentina to leave it almost instantly. When Argentina went into contact, it was a very different story. I used to rate Owens as a referee but his standards have dropped over the past year from what I have seen and that QF was as lop-sided a performance as I have seen. McCaw was allowed to throw himself in at the side, put his hands on the ball when he was off the feet, not roll away and linger on the wrong side in the way of the Argentina scrum half. Any 7 worth their salt is going to do exactly what they're allowed to do so I don't blame McCaw but I draw the line when one team is treated in one manner and the other entirely differently. My favourite image of Richie from that game:

totallegend

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I'll get the last word so :P

I agree with you that I wouldn't blame McCaw for it, he's the best 7 in the history of the game, sure didn't Alan Quinlan do it for Munster for years and we loved him!

I think McCaw gets away with stuff that other 7s wouldn't though, simply because he's Richie McCaw.

McCaw gets away with murder, absolutely. You can see the speed at which he moves when it comes to ball carrying or hitting the ruck, but when it comes to actually rolling away from the contact area, he suddenly develops arthritis and has to get up very, very slowly. Fair play to him and NZ for getting away with as much as they can, but I really believe they are not refereed to the same standards as other teams.

BTW, Alan Quinlan was terrible at the 'dark arts', he always getting pinged by the ref! Don't think he was quite subtle enough...

Fishooks12

totallegend wrote: »

McCaw gets away with murder, absolutely. You can see the speed at which he moves when it comes to ball carrying or hitting the ruck, but when it comes to actually rolling away from the contact area, he suddenly develops arthritis and has to get up very, very slowly. Fair play to him and NZ for getting away with as much as they can, but I really believe they are not refereed to the same standards as other teams.

BTW, Alan Quinlan was terrible at the 'dark arts', he always getting pinged by the ref! Don't think he was quite subtle enough...

GTFO!

the all blacks are just very very shrewd in this part of the game. aside from keeping a person in a ruck they will also line up the defensive line offside but do so perfectly in a line (as opposed to just having 1 or 2 guys offside) so that it's harder for the ref to spot.

skregs

WeeBushy wrote: »

And I think that's down to great play by McCaw, knowing what he can get away with. Kinda like when I play a J4 match against a team of 40 year olds. They know exactly what they can get away with and how to play the ref. They get away with things that I would never be able to.

I don't mean to back away, but this is quite a devisive argument, and one I just don't have time for today to get involved in. So I'm not going to post any more on the topic. I probably shouldn't have posted in the first place then... ah well.

If a senior ref bins McCaw, he knows that's his career finished. So refs are afraid to penalise them, and it's covered up with the usual guff of "the ABs just know how to play the game better"


But aside from that, NZ are brilliant counter-ruckers (McCaw especially) and they ALWAYS have support runners (to the point where you'd think they're all pyschic) so no one gets isolated

Fishooks12

skregs wrote: »

If a senior ref bins McCaw, he knows that's his career finished. So refs are afraid to penalise them, and it's covered up with the usual guff of "the ABs just know how to play the game better"

That's an exaggeration, a big one. Look at Wayne Barnes, he was atrocious in the 99 quarter and pinged McCaw a number of times and the kiwi media were calling for his head for months afterwards. But he's still in the elite ref category or whatever it's called!

I think it's more to do with McCaws perception by some referees as infallible at the break down because he's such a quality player

tolosenc

GerM wrote: »

I don't know, WB. In the Australia game, I think Joubert was fair and even handed. But against Argentina, NZ were treated quite differently to their opponents. When NZ went into contact, Owens could be clearly calling for Argentina to leave it almost instantly. When Argentina went into contact, it was a very different story. I used to rate Owens as a referee but his standards have dropped over the past year from what I have seen and that QF was as lop-sided a performance as I have seen. McCaw was allowed to throw himself in at the side, put his hands on the ball when he was off the feet, not roll away and linger on the wrong side in the way of the Argentina scrum half. Any 7 worth their salt is going to do exactly what they're allowed to do so I don't blame McCaw but I draw the line when one team is treated in one manner and the other entirely differently. My favourite image of Richie from that game:

I remember one comment from that match thread suggesting that McCaw should really have been wearing an Argentina jersey given the number of times he was on their side of the ruck.

GerM

Fishooks12 wrote: »

That's an exaggeration, a big one. Look at Wayne Barnes, he was atrocious in the 99 quarter and pinged McCaw a number of times and the kiwi media were calling for his head for months afterwards. But he's still in the elite ref category or whatever it's called!

Barnes dropped down the international pecking order sharply after the 2007 game. He only got 3 international fixtures in the next 12 months whilst the likes of Rolland, Kaplan and Owens were getting 7 or 8 high profile fixtures. Probably just a coincidence, but for someone that went into the 2007 WC being touted as the best young referee in the world, it's a bit odd.

Fishooks12

GerM wrote: »

Barnes dropped down the international pecking order sharply after the 2007 game. He only got 3 international fixtures in the next 12 months whilst the likes of Rolland, Kaplan and Owens were getting 7 or 8 high profile fixtures. Probably just a coincidence, but for someone that went into the 2007 WC being touted as the best young referee in the world, it's a bit odd.

Ya but infairness he did make a balls of that game

Although I would rate him ahead of Owens

EKClarke

d2ww wrote: »

First of all, I'm not an expert. But one thing that really strikes me about the All Blacks is how effective they are rucks and particularly counter rucking. Is it simply fearless aggression, or do they form 2,3 or 4 cells as they are running towards the breakdown and hit it as a unit driving over and past the ball? Also, if they are hitting the ruck at greater speed than other teams, how come they are not more prone to injury?
Thanks.

What the ABs do is all pile into the ruck so the ref can't see what's going on and that allows them to cheat at the breakdown. They did this a few times against Argentina.

Digifriendly

Answer is pure and simple - ABs are better at rucking than other teams. To suggest referees are blind to their misdemeanours is a slight on refereees and suggests they are deliberately bias to NZ which IMHO is simply not true. Also what about semi-final? Was Craig Joubert blind to NZ at the ruck as some are claiming Nigel Owens was in quarter - final? I honestly don't think so. Richie McCaw outplayed the much vaunted David Pocock. No other reason.

Trojan

Digifriendly wrote: »

To suggest referees are blind to their misdemeanours is a slight on refereees and suggests they are deliberately bias to NZ which IMHO is simply not true.

There is quantitative evidence to show that that is, in fact, true.

GerM

Digifriendly wrote: »

Answer is pure and simple - ABs are better at rucking than other teams. To suggest referees are blind to their misdemeanours is a slight on refereees and suggests they are deliberately bias to NZ which IMHO is simply not true. Also what about semi-final? Was Craig Joubert blind to NZ at the ruck as some are claiming Nigel Owens was in quarter - final? I honestly don't think so. Richie McCaw outplayed the much vaunted David Pocock. No other reason.

True, I thought Joubert was even handed and fair. But Owens was not. His officiating was a joke. In the shot I posted he's looking directly at the Argie side of the ruck. McCaw had already been cleaned out, rolled over onto his knees, crawled back into the ruck and reached in. The Argentina players had to clear him out a second time. All clearly visible on RTE player. NZ as a unit are the best side in the world at rucking and rugby overall. There's no argument with that. But I absolutely believe some referees are in awe of them or swayed by the whole All Black legend. I don't think it's necessarily intentionally deliberate but they do give them more leeway. Referees are often that bit slower to penalise the established best teams in many sports.

shuffol

I think its down to New Zealand being far more impatient without the ball than other sides, any sniff of an opportunity to regain it and they try and exploit it, makes them very competitive in the tackle and contact areas, you can see this in how they tackle, they dont just use the tackle to stop the opposition scoring but put in massive hits to try and dislodge the ball

anonymous_joe

As well as the cheating, New Zealand generally pick eight flankers.

It's not much more complicated than that. Guys like Thorn, Williams, Franks x2, etc, are all or have all been far more mobile than most of their equivalents.

As an example, South Africa tend to produce loads of lads like Steenkamp, etc, who'll fúck you up in the scrums and in the tight, but they lack the work rate and fitness of their NZ equivalents.

swordofislam

Trojan wrote: »

There is quantitative evidence to show that that is, in fact, true.

What annoys me about all the bloody Kiwi cheating is that they are the best team in the world. The refs should come down harder on them than on anyone else because they are the moral guardians.

Jawgap

Like a lot of things it boils down to coaching and discipline - as in the discipline of concentration and the discipline of training, drilling and working until you perfect the skill. It also helps that physically they are well trained.

I also seem to remember that the ABs were the first team to study judo and adapt some of the pivoting and levering moves from that sport into rugby.

Finally, they do "work" the ref in that they know exactly what a refs tolerances are and they push right up to those limits - again having the discipline to study and analyse the refs who do their games.

One last point, McCaw gets away with what he does because it's a little known fact that he's a Sith Lord known as Darth Flanker. He uses a Jedi mind trick on refs. If you listen in on the ref's mic you can often hear him say

"I am not the offside player you are looking for.":)

andrewdcs

GerM wrote: »

I don't know, WB. In the Australia game, I think Joubert was fair and even handed. But against Argentina, NZ were treated quite differently to their opponents. When NZ went into contact, Owens could be clearly calling for Argentina to leave it almost instantly. When Argentina went into contact, it was a very different story. I used to rate Owens as a referee but his standards have dropped over the past year from what I have seen and that QF was as lop-sided a performance as I have seen. McCaw was allowed to throw himself in at the side, put his hands on the ball when he was off the feet, not roll away and linger on the wrong side in the way of the Argentina scrum half. Any 7 worth their salt is going to do exactly what they're allowed to do so I don't blame McCaw but I draw the line when one team is treated in one manner and the other entirely differently. My favourite image of Richie from that game:

Brilliant.
It's like "Wheres Wally"

Luis21

McCaw gets away with murder. Constantly comes in from the side, tackles when offside and lies on the ball.

The refs have no balls to stop him. NZ will win.

smurphy29

That is the image of the tournament for me GerM, brilliant work.

There are elements of truth to most of the posts. I think McCaw does get away with rather a lot, and I think refs do go easy on New Zealand at times. Certainly, Nigel had a shocking match i the quarter final.

But it's not just cheating - the All Blacks are incredible at rucking. Part of it has to be their bodyshape - they actually moved away from the huge, overbuilt physique most teams developed in the last few years, and looked to make their team more mobile and athletic. They put a large emphasis on long-distance running in training apparently. As a result they're incredibly well conditioned and can sprint from one ruck to the next and have the stamina to handle the collisions.

CJhaughey

I remember seeing McCaw during the Australia game, he was on the back of one of the Aussies, I can't remember who it was. He was going for the ball and he had it only to get penalised.
But he did it upside down on the back of the Aussie player! Amazing to see.

tolosenc

CJhaughey wrote: »

I remember seeing McCaw during the Australia game, he was on the back of one of the Aussies, I can't remember who it was. He was going for the ball and he had it only to get penalised.
But he did it upside down on the back of the Aussie player! Amazing to see.

He wasn't penalised. NZ had knocked on just before that, so it was advantage over, scrum Wallabies. It was really something to behold!

BQQ

GerM wrote: »

Barnes dropped down the international pecking order sharply after the 2007 game. He only got 3 international fixtures in the next 12 months whilst the likes of Rolland, Kaplan and Owens were getting 7 or 8 high profile fixtures. Probably just a coincidence, but for someone that went into the 2007 WC being touted as the best young referee in the world, it's a bit odd.

Did you see him this morning?
Almost the entire Wales score could be attributed to his bad decisions.

Shouldn't get near an international for another 12 months.
Shocking performance!

WeeBushy

WeeBushy wrote: »

See, I'm inclined to disagree with you as to why they don't get penalised. I think its because they are far more savy at knowing where they can push things, what they can get away with, and what the particular ref is like. It's something I actually admire a lot, that they know what they can get away with. You never hear a word of complaint if an Irish team are able to get away with things.

I don't buy into the 'refs are afraid to penalise the ABs'.

I completely take that back.