5k Training Advice

seanynova

Hey,

I've never actually run a 5k race before so going to give it a shot next year. I have a race penciled in for next May which gives me lots ot time to train for it.

Wondering what is the best approach?

I'm looking at the Daniels 5-15k plan, which focuses on reps, interval & tempo runs during most weeks but the 3 phases are geared towards the following:
P2 - Reps
P3 - Intervals
P4 - Tempo/Races

Is this the best approach for 5k training? it seams to cover all options. Id rather stick to specific 5k stuff for now....do 5k-ers run long 40min tempo sessions? and typically how long should a LSR be?

Also, I'm toying with the idea of creating an 8-9day week to get the sessions in and still have enough time to recover, Daniels plan calls for 3 sessions most weeks with a LSR at the weekend. For me, I think that's too much hard running in 7days.

So any advice?
Prior to the plan kick off, should I look at 3k stuff?

This is in a bid to get fast(er) as I'm a mullucker and never going to get much faster if I dont train for speed.

Thanks,

cwgatling

Thinking of doing something similar after Dublin. Be great to get some speed up.
The Daniels stuff is solid as you know. Here's a great article I read a while back

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=19258

The plan is on the last page, details in the preceeding pages.

ecoli

seanynova wrote: »

Hey,

I've never actually run a 5k race before so going to give it a shot next year. I have a race penciled in for next May which gives me lots ot time to train for it.

Wondering what is the best approach?

I'm looking at the Daniels 5-15k plan, which focuses on reps, interval & tempo runs during most weeks but the 3 phases are geared towards the following:
P2 - Reps
P3 - Intervals
P4 - Tempo/Races

Is this the best approach for 5k training? it seams to cover all options. Id rather stick to specific 5k stuff for now....do 5k-ers run long 40min tempo sessions? and typically how long should a LSR be?

Also, I'm toying with the idea of creating an 8-9day week to get the sessions in and still have enough time to recover, Daniels plan calls for 3 sessions most weeks with a LSR at the weekend. For me, I think that's too much hard running in 7days.

So any advice?
Prior to the plan kick off, should I look at 3k stuff?

This is in a bid to get fast(er) as I'm a mullucker and never going to get much faster if I dont train for speed.

Thanks,

Daniels approach is definitely one way to go about it and alot of people have success with it. Personally I leave tempo running for the early stages of a plan. I find that tempo running helps build the strength needed to cope with a volume of high intensity reps.

Also When training for 5k/10k I am more of a fan of 2 a week sessions (Usually Wednesday and Saturday as they give you good chance to fully recovery from each session)

My progression would be something more along the lines of

P1 (November/December) Steep Hills, tempos,
P2 (Jan/Feb) Steep Hills, 10k paced work short recoveries (Include longer races 5m/10ks)
P3 (March/Apr) Shorter fast gradual hills, 3k-5k specific work (include shorter races 1500/3k)
P4 (May)Race Phase - Tune up sessions

There is a very good article which ties in with alot of my approaches in terms of the philosophy (mind you dont really follow the 2 week cycle plan he gives at the end)


http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=19258&PageNum=1

Hope this helps

ddel

seany - I agree with you on the Daniels plan being a little to hard with three Q sessions and an LSR. To put that in context, his LSR's for 5k training are usually 90 mins or less - which is childs play for you after the marathon training. Also, his Reps tend to be less taxing as you'd expect. I've done them and found the session to be "Hard" when I was about 2/3 secs per 200m faster than he suggested for my fitness level. In other words, when I did them at his pace they were about leg speed and general lactic fatigue as opposed to real flat out exhaustion. If you stay with the times he suggests for your VDOT the week is manageable, but if like me, you push harder sometimes, ease off and drop a Q session. The session to drop is the Tempo (and possible the LSR also - sometimes) as it's least relevant to the 5k and even more so the case for you as your tempos fitness (lactate threshold) is strong already. Obviously don't always drop the tempo stuff, keep it in to maintain that fitness and drop the Reps the odd time (have balance) BUT - NEVER - drop the intervals. They are what matter for 5k running. I notice from Daniels there's a phase of 1.5 or 2 interval sessions some weeks - there's a reason for that.

Simply put, you have a great diesel engine at the moment. Efficient, long lasting and keeps going and going. 5k isn't quite high powered petrol engine stuff, but it is a less efficient turbo diesel. You still want some efficiency and endurance - but speed and power matters at 5k and the reps and intervals give that turbo and power.

ecoli

ddel wrote: »

seany - I agree with you on the Daniels plan being a little to hard with three Q sessions and an LSR. To put that in context, his LSR's for 5k training are usually 90 mins or less - which is childs play for you after the marathon training. Also, his Reps tend to be less taxing as you'd expect. I've done them and found the session to be "Hard" when I was about 2/3 secs per 200m faster than he suggested for my fitness level. In other words, when I did them at his pace they were about leg speed and general lactic fatigue as opposed to real flat out exhaustion. If you stay with the times he suggests for your VDOT the week is manageable, but if like me, you push harder sometimes, ease off and drop a Q session. The session to drop is the Tempo (and possible the LSR also - sometimes) as it's least relevant to the 5k and even more so the case for you as your tempos fitness (lactate threshold) is strong already. Obviously don't always drop the tempo stuff, keep it in to maintain that fitness and drop the Reps the odd time (have balance) BUT - NEVER - drop the intervals. They are what matter for 5k running. I notice from Daniels there's a phase of 1.5 or 2 interval sessions some weeks - there's a reason for that.

Simply put, you have a great diesel engine at the moment. Efficient, long lasting and keeps going and going. 5k isn't quite high powered petrol engine stuff, but it is a less efficient turbo diesel. You still want some efficiency and endurance - but speed and power matters at 5k and the reps and intervals give that turbo and power.

Would argue this 5ks use energy predominantly from the Aerobic system (I think glovers research attributed 95% of energy expenditure in 5k to this compared to 99% in Marathon. Yes intervals are important but you will find that Tempo can have great benefit in the overall plan.

Daniels puts these in P3 to build back up your aerobic capacity just before your competition phase so as to allow a runner to use the anaerobic tolerance they have built up in a 15+ min race (for most of us anyway)

To go further on your car analogy too much intervals is like a car stuck in first gear loads of speed and power but can't translate it to performance because the revs in each gear can only go so high before blowing the engine.

If you are going to follow a plan follow the whole thing as while Intervals/Tempos are important on there own, it is how they all come together in one plan that make a runner.

You are only as strong as your weakest link and as such need to address all aspects (albeit having different emphasis depending on the demands at that time) right throughout the year

ddel

ecoli wrote: »

Would argue this 5ks use energy predominantly from the Aerobic system (I think glovers research attributed 95% of energy expenditure in 5k to this compared to 99% in Marathon. Yes intervals are important but you will find that Tempo can have great benefit in the overall plan.

Daniels puts these in P3 to build back up your aerobic capacity just before your competition phase so as to allow a runner to use the anaerobic tolerance they have built up in a 15+ min race (for most of us anyway)

To go further on your car analogy too much intervals is like a car stuck in first gear loads of speed and power but can't translate it to performance because the revs in each gear can only go so high before blowing the engine.

If you are going to follow a plan follow the whole thing as while Intervals/Tempos are important on there own it is how they all come together in one plan that make a runner.

You are only as strong as your weakest link and as such need to address all aspects (albeit having different emphasis depending on the demands at that time) right throughout the year

Agree 100%.

I was giving seany advice based on the fact his current training has been mostly LSR's, MP, Tempo etc. I recommend maintaining that and focusing his energies on the intervals and to a lesser extent Reps. When I recommeded the 1.5 or 2 intervals a week from Daniels I said it was for a phase, not for every week. I've seen/noticed many 5k/10k runners still err towards intervals when training for a Marathon and neglect the higher priority sessions (tempo and MP) as they are happy at intervals and Reps. Equally so the marathon guy dipping his toe in the 5k/10k water tends to fall back into tempo and LSR's as they are happy there.

I would fully back your training plan - especially the hills. You state the tempo stuff is great to give the strength for the volume of high intensity reps . Would seany not have that already from his marathon training? I would recommend doing a nice few tempo sessions after he recovers from the marathon to click that fitness back to where it was. But after that it's hills, intervals and maintenance tempo sessions (not, no tempo sessions).

Saying all that - if I were seany I'd listen to ecoli before a plodder like myself, but at least I'm here to help "create a bit of debate"....

ecoli

ddel wrote: »

Agree 100%.

I was giving seany advice based on the fact his current training has been mostly LSR's, MP, Tempo etc. I recommend maintaining that and focusing his energies on the intervals and to a lesser extent Reps. When I recommeded the 1.5 or 2 intervals a week from Daniels I said it was for a phase, not for every week. I've seen/noticed many 5k/10k runners still err towards intervals when training for a Marathon and neglect the higher priority sessions (tempo and MP) as they are happy at intervals and Reps. Equally so the marathon guy dipping his toe in the 5k/10k water tends to fall back into tempo and LSR's as they are happy there.

I would fully back your training plan - especially the hills. You state the tempo stuff is great to give the strength for the volume of high intensity reps . Would seany not have that already from his marathon training? I would recommend doing a nice few tempo sessions after he recovers from the marathon to click that fitness back to where it was. But after that it's hills, intervals and maintenance tempo sessions (not, no tempo sessions).

Saying all that - if I were seany I'd listen to ecoli before a plodder like myself, but at least I'm here to help "create a bit of debate"....

I can understand what you are saying in terms of him coming from the Marathon down that the strength being already there however I think the problem alot of people make is they feel that because they came from one discipline to another the tend to go one of two ways

1)Overcompensate trying to address weakness

This basically means they ignore what made them the runner they are and try to address the weakness in there running so much that they end up losing the qualities that made them good in there previous disciplines. This happened me about 2 years ago training for a half after which I felt I had the strength so began working on speed doing 800/1500 sessions 3 times a week training for 3ks-5ks. In the end I had to wrap up my season early because I had ignored strength work so much i didnt have the strength to keep racing through the summer

2) Stick to what you are good at

As you mentioned in your post this can occur as well. Some people will gravitate towards sessions they find they are good at or even find easier than when they are addressing there weaknesses and hurt more

Even though Seany has strength from the marathon there are very few people who cannot benefit from developing their aerobic capacity. This is something built up over years more so than 1 cycle of a training plan. This is one of the biggest reasons why you see Marathon runners improving from one plan to the next, not because of some dramatic change in their training but simply each new training cycle they are starting with a bigger base (provided they are continually training in between of course)

The odd Tempo thrown in every few weeks as you have suggested could be a good approach to to keep in touch with it. In terms of the Long run Seany 90 min runs would be fine for 5k training roughly however rather than reduce the miles compared to your marathon training I would just redistribute the miles throughout the week. If you look to elites the mileage between most 1500m runners to 10k and even marathon runners will be running similar enough miles but its the emphasis of these miles which makes the difference

@ddel sometimes "plodders" make the best coaches just look at Renato Canova, (the man has had more World and Olympic Champion runners than most countries put together) he didnt have much of a running pedigree before coaching. Runners who reach a certain level can get stuck in their ways and think their approach is the only one as its "what worked for them" compared to "plodders" who try to learn as much as possible from as many sources. Its easier to fill an empty vessel than a empty a full one.

The debates are something that has been lacking on the forum for a while so its nice to get a few different ideas etc and new voices speaking up

ddel

It's funny, as much as we talk about length or runs, pace of runs, tempo, intervals, speed etc. The biggest challenge of all is balance. Your personal example is spot on and I'd say it's a mistake every athlete makes - more than once - I know I have.

One thing i'd like to know from Seany - how long does he intend doing this 5k/10k stint? If it's for 6/8 months ecoli is 100% right, developing pure aerobic fitness is still a priority, but if it's a "go at it for 3 months" and see how fast you can run - then relying on your base and going hard at intervals/hills/reps while only maintaining tempo/LSR might be an idea.

Either way - get up those hills and feel the legs and lungs BURN!!!!

ecoli

ddel wrote: »

It's funny, as much as we talk about length or runs, pace of runs, tempo, intervals, speed etc. The biggest challenge of all is balance. Your personal example is spot on and I'd say it's a mistake every athlete makes - more than once - I know I have.

One thing i'd like to know from Seany - how long does he intend doing this 5k/10k stint? If it's for 6/8 months ecoli is 100% right, developing pure aerobic fitness is still a priority, but if it's a "go at it for 3 months" and see how fast you can run - then relying on your base and going hard at intervals/hills/reps while only maintaining tempo/LSR might be an idea.

Either way - get up those hills and feel the legs and lungs BURN!!!!

He has targetted a race next May

ddel

ecoli wrote: »

He has targetted a race next May

Sorry - in his first line and all......:o

dna_leri

@Seanynova - what sort of improvement are you looking to achieve?
I take it from some of the other comments that you are coming off a marathon base.
I do not have a marathon base so my suggestions may be different.

My first suggestion if you have not done a 5K in a while is to get out there and do a 5K asap to get a baseline for your improvement.
I do not think you should spend too much time on 3K stuff, I would focus on the 5 to 10K range. You might want to do a few 3K type races in the build-up but train for 5Ks.

I started off this year training for a 5K with a long run of 90 mins; 1 interval session ~5K of 300/400m intervals at 5K pace e.g. 12x 400m with roughly equal recoveries and 1 hill session - a mix of long and short. I tended to do my long run at the faster end of the recommended range. That got me a 30s improvement in my 5K in February.

I then focused on some 10K training, alternating 1K reps with the shorter ones, building up to tempo intervals based "The Best 10K workout by McMillan". I kept the long run the same. I also replaced the hill session with tempo runs. That knocked another minute off by May.

From May through August, I trained for a 15K hill race, so lots of long hills and longer intervals but maintaining the 5K pace intervals every few weeks. I also increased the long run up to 2hrs. In the last few weeks, I eased back on the mileage and tuned up with some speed work and PB'd at 10K, 8K and took another minute off my 5K.

Might not work for everyone but I got the speed in early and then built the speed endurance and strength before turning up the speed dial again.

Gringo78

I think your main aim here is really to get faster? Doesn't really matter if its over 3k, 5k, 10k, you just want to get your race times in that range down to something that will transalte into a faster marathon next time you train for one.

Any running club you can join out there in Canada? I've been training with a club that has 4 or 5 runners at training who are faster than me. I only make the training sessions probably once a fortnight but I can hit paces there that I don't have a hope of hitting training on my own. I get dragged through interval sessions & speed sessions and quit far later than I would if I was training on my own. There's no structure to the club sessions as in they would not always fit in to my schedule or plan but the session is always worth more to me than if I had done the correctly planned session for the race I was training for because the group session are just such better quality.

By training with people faster than you, you will get faster, faster.

seanynova

thanks for the replies,

little bit hard to reply to them individually but ill try here;

what im aiming for is just to get the speed up next year, i tried that last winter and i found it worked really well but then i got injured. but im hoping i can get back to that level and improve even further.
to put a time on it, im not sure....my times dont really relate downwards as per the likes of mcmillan....like if i did a 10m at 6m/m, my half time wouldnt be 6:06m/m, prob closer to 6m/m to be honest.
and if i did a 10k, the pace would be close to 6m/m also with a fastrer last mile/kick.

what im hoping to get out of this is basically skip a progression or two in the stepping stones to being faster across the board(5k-marathon).

since ive never done speed work for a long time, i feel i will benefit for it.

the plan outlines help as above but im geographically challenged in some ways;
winters here are completly under snow/ice..temps typically -20, but go down to -30, -40 for a few weeks of the year also. there are no major hills in this region either.

what ill have to do is train on an indoor 200m track and tredmill for speed/hill sessions but the track could increase injury....obviously will have to do core/stretching to prevent this, and run smart without loosing form etc.
any other suggestions for training in these conditions?

what im getting from the aboe is that 5k training is similar to 10k stuff, is that right?
could be handy as there is a 5/10k spring series i can do prior to the provincial championships 5k....

if i think of any more ill post,

thanks,

seanynova

Gringo78 wrote: »

I think your main aim here is really to get faster? Doesn't really matter if its over 3k, 5k, 10k, you just want to get your race times in that range down to something that will transalte into a faster marathon next time you train for one.

Any running club you can join out there in Canada? I've been training with a club that has 4 or 5 runners at training who are faster than me. I only make the training sessions probably once a fortnight but I can hit paces there that I don't have a hope of hitting training on my own. I get dragged through interval sessions & speed sessions and quit far later than I would if I was training on my own. There's no structure to the club sessions as in they would not always fit in to my schedule or plan but the session is always worth more to me than if I had done the correctly planned session for the race I was training for because the group session are just such better quality.

By training with people faster than you, you will get faster, faster.

no real running clubs over here, strange!!! there are running groups from running shops but its not specific, just mileage. i was running with a guy a few times though thats a 33min 10k-er and will do more with him over winter but i was stuck to my plan so didnt get to run with him much. it will be handy training with him though as he is faster than me which may help bring me round the track. id be cautious of running too hard but a target and stride partner will still help.

seanynova

dna_leri wrote: »

I started off this year training for a 5K with a long run of 90 mins; 1 interval session ~5K of 300/400m intervals at 5K pace e.g. 12x 400m with roughly equal recoveries and 1 hill session - a mix of long and short. I tended to do my long run at the faster end of the recommended range. That got me a 30s improvement in my 5K in February.

I then focused on some 10K training, alternating 1K reps with the shorter ones, building up to tempo intervals based "The Best 10K workout by McMillan". I kept the long run the same. I also replaced the hill session with tempo runs. That knocked another minute off by May.

From May through August, I trained for a 15K hill race, so lots of long hills and longer intervals but maintaining the 5K pace intervals every few weeks. I also increased the long run up to 2hrs. In the last few weeks, I eased back on the mileage and tuned up with some speed work and PB'd at 10K, 8K and took another minute off my 5K.

thats a serious improvment in 5k time, to be taking minutes off like that..i guess thats the aim for me too although unless there is an indoor 5k soon, i wont beable to establish my original time.

ecoli wrote: »

P1 (November/December) Steep Hills, tempos,
P2 (Jan/Feb) Steep Hills, 10k paced work short recoveries (Include longer races 5m/10ks)
P3 (March/Apr) Shorter fast gradual hills, 3k-5k specific work (include shorter races 1500/3k)
P4 (May)Race Phase - Tune up sessions

thanks ecoli,

i have drafted up an 18week plan based on the daniels approach, but looking to drop one Q session per week, although i may alternate weeks and drop the LSR but need to be careful about picking up injuries. will also keep the hills in there somehow also for Phase 2.

the plan kicks off end of jan which means i have nov/dec to work on base as above.
im going to take another 2weeks off after the marathon to let myself recover properly but will do core/stretching work for now. then ill do 5-6weeks of easy running incl strides and a LSR at the weekends.

Following that i want to introduce hills, problem is there are no hills here, but i have a tredmill, any suggestion for tredmill sessions regarding hill repeats? will do those plus a tempo/fartklek a week until jan but minus 2weeks for Christmas hols.

how are tredmill inclines graded anyway? any suggestions on how steep/fast?

i also notice that there are a good few high profile races in and around Phase 3, which isint ideal as its the interval based phase in daniels.
(weeks to goal)
9 - 5k
8 - 5k/10k
7 - 5k/15k
5 - Half
4 - 10k

any suggestions on how many races to include and what distance? although they are part of a road racing series here that i should enter.
my own though is that the 5k will be fine to do although not in the best phase and as sessions the 10k races might be a good option, however the 15k and half may be a tad too far for specific 5k goal...any opinions?

thanks,

ecoli

seanynova wrote: »

the plan kicks off end of jan which means i have nov/dec to work on base as above.
im going to take another 2weeks off after the marathon to let myself recover properly but will do core/stretching work for now. then ill do 5-6weeks of easy running incl strides and a LSR at the weekends.

Following that i want to introduce hills, problem is there are no hills here, but i have a tredmill, any suggestion for tredmill sessions regarding hill repeats? will do those plus a tempo/fartklek a week until jan but minus 2weeks for Christmas hols.

how are tredmill inclines graded anyway? any suggestions on how steep/fast?

i also notice that there are a good few high profile races in and around Phase 3, which isint ideal as its the interval based phase in daniels.
(weeks to goal)
9 - 5k
8 - 5k/10k
7 - 5k/15k
5 - Half
4 - 10k

any suggestions on how many races to include and what distance? although they are part of a road racing series here that i should enter.
my own though is that the 5k will be fine to do although not in the best phase and as sessions the 10k races might be a good option, however the 15k and half may be a tad too far for specific 5k goal...any opinions?

thanks,

In terms of hills. If you cant find any Daniels Rep sessions are used to similar effect as my early steep hills. These are to work on form and Daniels uses his reps to the same effect. If you do opt for the treadmill i suggest roughly 10k effort roughly (effort not pace as on hill pace will be slower for same effort)

I haven't ran on treadmill in years so I am not sure on the exact figures for gradient but I would imagine something along the lines of 10% would be a steep enough hill to stimulate form work

In terms of races I would stick to 3ks-10ks if you are looking to get in some races (and this is something I would definitely reccomend) Unlike Marathons you often need a few races to sharpen you before target races. I know myself at the shorter distances it oftens takes 2-3 races at the distance before I am ready for a PB attempt even if I am in the shape to do it

Aside from this sharpness races in themselves can be great for boosting fitness