Bounchers & Security

noelo

Hi, just wondering what rights event security and bounchers have with the public? As in, if they believe a member of the public is in the wrong can they restrain that person and hurt them in doing so. If that person was being hurt to such an extend were he/she believed it was assalt could that person use self defence? A situation arrose not to long ago to a buddy of mine were he put his hand over a bar to get a clean glass and the barman presumed he was stealing the glass and alerted security. Security arrived very quickly and told the man during a struggle to let go of the bar to which he was holding on to and his full glass of beer to which there was a deposit on, or they would break his hand. The person could not reason with them and was removed from the event with force by means of bending one's arms up behind the back to such an extent that the mans toes could not touch the floor. As they pushed him forward and out of the event the pain grew to the extent were the the man was in tears and feared his arms would break at the shoulder or dislocate (the man has winged scarpolia to). The man screamed to the public/on lookers for help but to no avail. All the time the four security whispered to him "shut up or we will break the arms" when the man reached the exterior of the event he managed to wriggle one arm free to defend himself, he managed to hit one in the face but was quickly thrown on to the ground with both arms and legs bend up backward. They kneeled on his back to an extent were the man could bearly breath whilst pushing his face into the pebbles not allowing his head to turn, chipping his tooth. The police arrived and the man was arrested and is now being charged with a public order offence. The man was thrown in the slammer for a few hours and I believe it was a very trawmatic experience for him were the man completely broke down in the custody of the police. Surely this is not write ? or is it? the mman arms and knees are dammaged. thanks for reading, I d love to hear your views. ps please excuse any mistakes in the text

CIARAN_BOYLE

Does your friend have any evidence? Medical reports or anything. CCTV of the incident would be good too

noelo

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Does your friend have any evidence? Medical reports or anything. CCTV of the incident would be good too

I am not sure, the octoberfest were it happend is just a large tent, but were he was trown to the ground there is a camera mounted on the large arch at georges dock, dunno who runs it though. As for the shoulder injuries no doctors report has been drafted yet but that could be arranged still as he is still in a great deal of pain. what is your first impression of the story?

Zambia

Security arrived very quickly and told the man during a struggle to let go of the bar

Why was he holding on to the bar ?

Reaching over the bar could be construed as burglary depending on his intention.

Especially as he had a glass he paid a deposit on so if he was reaching across a clear staff area to obtain an item glass that is not free (deposit).

The level of force used on him seems a lot but this is what happens when you grab hold of things.

When asked to leave a premises.

1: Place all drinks down.
2: Aknowledge the fact you will leave.
3: Leave

Had he done this I reckon his shoulder would be fine. Remember in a bar/pub you do not have a right to be there you have permission.

Doormen could do with some more skills as well.

That's my first impression.

noelo

Zambia wrote: »

Why was he holding on to the bar ?

Reaching over the bar could be construed as burglary depending on his intention.

Especially as he had a glass he paid a deposit on so if he was reaching across a clear staff area to obtain an item glass that is not free (deposit).

The level of force used on him seems a lot but this is what happens when you grab hold of things.

When asked to leave a premises.

1: Place all drinks down.
2: Aknowledge the fact you will leave.
3: Leave

Had he done this I reckon his shoulder would be fine. Remember in a bar/pub you do not have a right to be there you have permission.

Doormen could do with some more skills as well.

That's my first impression.

Very good observation, I would not of though of any of that. He held onto the bar because he felt it was right to finiish his drink he paid for and receive his deposit. I should of mentioned before that he put a soiled glass on the bar and pushed it forward and then proceeded to take another, he was getting a round I recall him saying. I ve been there and they usually refill the soiled glass, he didn want this, I recognise he should of asked but its seems to be a done thing here in ireland, I have done it and do still do it and know a lot who do it although it is not politically write. They said when he said " Ive a deposit on that", " you've just lost your deposit".

TylerIE

Not meaning to be a reflection on your friend but the security at Georges Dock for all events up to September 2010 were always excellent, and I believe they are still there (I havnt been there much over the last year). I had a fair few dealings with them and both owner and manager of the company and they pride themselves on excellent conduct and professional staff.

They have essentially been identified by default here but I have almost no doubt they would actually welcome a complaint and assist you in resolving same if you do feel their treatment was unjust.

If you feel the Garda actions were inappropriate then I suggest the Garda Ombudsman be contacted, but it does sound like its not them that your holding responsible for your friends injuries. If your friend was agitated on their arrival it was likely necessary in their opinion to arrest him under the Public Order Act so as to avoid an ongoing confrontation between him and security.


Its likely your friends grabbing the bar was taken by the security staff to be an act of non-compliance, and in order to defuse the situation and maintain the safety of others in the area.

McCrack

Just go to a doctor, then a personal injury solicitor and sue them.

Simples.

Contra Proferentem

While they've no right to assault anyone, and are supposed to only use "reasonable force", event security aren't sure entirely what they're coming up against so there can be a tendency to over react, it's the same with door security on clubs and pubs.

As has been advised, make it clear that you are willing to comply and not going to phyically attack them. If they still use force you consider to be excessive, then consult a solicitor as regards taking action against them.

As regards the personal injury route, it's up to the Injuries Board (formerly PIAB) to decide if they wish to handle a claim involving assault and/or battery. Usually they are reluctant to stray into that specific area, which is more Tort than specific PI.

noelo

TylerIE wrote: »

Not meaning to be a reflection on your friend but the security at Georges Dock for all events up to September 2010 were always excellent, and I believe they are still there (I havnt been there much over the last year). I had a fair few dealings with them and both owner and manager of the company and they pride themselves on excellent conduct and professional staff.

They have essentially been identified by default here but I have almost no doubt they would actually welcome a complaint and assist you in resolving same if you do feel their treatment was unjust.

If you feel the Garda actions were inappropriate then I suggest the Garda Ombudsman be contacted, but it does sound like its not them that your holding responsible for your friends injuries. If your friend was agitated on their arrival it was likely necessary in their opinion to arrest him under the Public Order Act so as to avoid an ongoing confrontation between him and security.


Its likely your friends grabbing the bar was taken by the security staff to be an act of non-compliance, and in order to defuse the situation and maintain the safety of others in the area.

Yes, you are right. but do you think this is the way to defuse the situation? as laid out in the intial question at the top. I beleive the gardai seen his agrivation and arrested him respectfully. He told me that when the gardai arrived he felt safe and releived because of his misstreatment. He continued to tell me the gardai were very professional and nice to an extent, he also said that the bangardia who looked after him in custody was very down to earth, giving him a tea and speaking with him on a one to one level. After a short time he asked could he get the bus home and they allowed this but on exit charged him with section 4 of the criminal justice act 1994(public order).

noelo

McCrack wrote: »

Just go to a doctor, then a personal injury solicitor and sue them.

Simples.

thanks for reading and helping out. However, It really isint that simple, with the tecnicalities of the event he could lose and incure any legal fees, maybe 5000.00 euro

noelo

Contra Proferentem wrote: »

While they've no right to assault anyone, and are supposed to only use "reasonable force", event security aren't sure entirely what they're coming up against so there can be a tendency to over react, it's the same with door security on clubs and pubs.

As has been advised, make it clear that you are willing to comply and not going to phyically attack them. If they still use force you consider to be excessive, then consult a solicitor as regards taking action against them.

As regards the personal injury route, it's up to the Injuries Board (formerly PIAB) to decide if they wish to handle a claim involving assault and/or battery. Usually they are reluctant to stray into that specific area, which is more Tort than specific PI.

Great advice, I am getting a lot of usful information on this blog. The man told me he explain that he would finish his drink and leave without the need for force, he then proceeded to say that they would not listen nor would they allow him to say, in his own words " Get a word in edgeways" the man beleiving it was his right to finish his drink inside or outside so he could obtain his deposit back, held the bar and his drink before four security prised his fingers from the mug, all the time say to him "let go or we will break your hand". A fifth man was prising his fingers from the bar.

McCrack

noelo wrote: »

thanks for reading and helping out. However, It really isint that simple, with the tecnicalities of the event he could lose and incure any legal fees, maybe 5000.00 euro

Well then don't visit a solicitor for professional advice. Forget it ever happened.

schemingbohemia

Looking at this from the outside it would seem to me quite easy for the argument to be made by security that

1 - your friend was trying to steal a glass
2 - your friend after having been confronted by security and asked to leave said he wasn't leaving until he finished his drink
3 - having escorted your friend - who was resisting being moved - outside he then swung at them without having been "assaulted"
4 - security then ensured he couldn't swing at them again by pinioning him to the ground.

I would think your friend would quite easily be found guilty of breaching the peace by his actions.

If you could go back and edit your original post to make paragraphs it will make it easier to read.

TylerIE

noelo wrote: »

Yes, you are right. but do you think this is the way to defuse the situation? as laid out in the intial question at the top. I beleive the gardai seen his agrivation and arrested him respectfully. He told me that when the gardai arrived he felt safe and releived because of his misstreatment. He continued to tell me the gardai were very professional and nice to an extent, he also said that the bangardia who looked after him in custody was very down to earth, giving him a tea and speaking with him on a one to one level. After a short time he asked could he get the bus home and they allowed this but on exit charged him with section 4 of the criminal justice act 1994(public order).

The situation is defused - your friend has been charged for the Public Order Offence he committed.

Any subsequent complaints that you or he makes now re the Security or Garda conduct wont cause charges to disappear.

It sounds like the security reacted to what they (as sober individuals) believed to be an individual engaged in disorderly conduct. As is their duty, they intervened. Your friend (under the influence) didnt comply. When the Gardai arrived they arrested him for being intoxicated in a public place.

Its possible your friend will only get either a fixed penalty fine or an adult caution for the offence. If it does reach court most judges will give a small fine or a donation to the poor-box.

Its a lesson for him and any of his friends to be aware of their actions when they have drink on board.

Mr. Incognito

It sounds like your friend was drunk.

Can't see him getting anywhere with this tbh.

noelo

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

It sounds like your friend was drunk.

Can't see him getting anywhere with this tbh.

Yes you are right, but he was no more drunk than anyone else you know.

noelo

McCrack wrote: »

Well then don't visit a solicitor for professional advice. Forget it ever happened.

Hmmm he ll still have to go to court and plead guilty on the charge and incure a fine. I figure he was arrested for his aggrivation to the propossed assalt?

decskelligs

I am in the security industry and the first thing that you need to do is get the doormen to do is produce their PSA Licence once asked the security person must produce it.
Take the number and then you have your starting point.
Every licenced security person must be able to produce this the same as taxi's must display the driver details.
for more info go to
www.psa.gov.ie/
Hope this helps

thegrayson

The level of drunkenness is entirely subjective. Bouncers/ Security act on the behalf of the "Licensee" of a PUB/ Club/ Venue, they have the right to refuse admission, refuse service and ask a patron to leave the premises all "in good faith"(see intoxicating liquor act). Refusing to leave and being argumentative results in being restrained and thrown out, the level of restraint usual being relative to how uncooperative the patron is. Being arm locked by one or two bouncers is prudence on their behalf. Struggling while restrained and throwing a punch just ends in tears.

noelo

TylerIE wrote: »

The situation is defused - your friend has been charged for the Public Order Offence he committed.

Any subsequent complaints that you or he makes now re the Security or Garda conduct wont cause charges to disappear.

It sounds like the security reacted to what they (as sober individuals) believed to be an individual engaged in disorderly conduct. As is their duty, they intervened. Your friend (under the influence) didnt comply. When the Gardai arrived they arrested him for being intoxicated in a public place.

Its possible your friend will only get either a fixed penalty fine or an adult caution for the offence. If it does reach court most judges will give a small fine or a donation to the poor-box.

Its a lesson for him and any of his friends to be aware of their actions when they have drink on board.

I understand that and I understand his charge will still exist, but what my intial query was is ; is it right what the security did and would it hold up as a vialble civil case for assalt ? cheers

noelo

decskelligs wrote: »

I am in the security industry and the first thing that you need to do is get the doormen to do is produce their PSA Licence once asked the security person must produce it.
Take the number and then you have your starting point.
Every licenced security person must be able to produce this the same as taxi's must display the driver details.
for more info go to
www.psa.gov.ie/
Hope this helps

cheers for that, should it be displayed on ones arm in a plastic holder?

noelo

thegrayson wrote: »

The level of drunkenness is entirely subjective. Bouncers/ Security act on the behalf of the "Licensee" of a PUB/ Club/ Venue, they have the right to refuse admission, refuse service and ask a patron to leave the premises all "in good faith"(see intoxicating liquor act). Refusing to leave and being argumentative results in being restrained and thrown out, the level of restraint usual being relative to how uncooperative the patron is. Being arm locked by one or two bouncers is prudence on their behalf. Struggling while restrained and throwing a punch just ends in tears.

but is pushing ones arm up to the extent to which onse toes no longer/bearly touch the floor causing extreme pain whilst be pushed forward is assalt no? could retaining a person be a breach of human rights?

Dermighty

For the record I'm a bouncer

noelo wrote: »

Yes, you are right. but do you think this is the way to defuse the situation?

their way of defusing the situation was telling him to let go of the bar.

For me the standard procedure if I see or hear of this kind of stuff happening is as follows:

1. Approach the customer
2. Tell them to come with me
3. When it is possible to talk I explain the situation, listen to them and then decide how to resolve the issue. This will end with them reentering the club, receiving a warning and reentering the club or just being removed from the club.

If someone refuses to move let go or whatever the scenario (assuming I do not have them restrained already) I ask again and a third time. If they do not respond I physically move them.

I do not like restraining people. I restrain people when they endanger people or repeatedly fail to comply with my request to follow me so I can speak with them.

noelo wrote: »

After a short time he asked could he get the bus home and they allowed this but on exit charged him with section 4 of the criminal justice act 1994(public order).

In my experience nobody gets charged with public order offenses for being removed from a club. He was most likely charged with it because he was outside the club screaming abuse. This is just my opinion and may not be what actually happened, but probably was.


I'll attempt to show no bias when I say that your friend was most definitely at fault for a lot of what happened.

However the bouncers restraining his arms like that is extreme. Assuming the person is not trying to hit the bouncers: someone with their arms restrained behind their back at belt level is just as restrained as someone with their arms bent up to shoulder blade height. I don't use that technique because it uses a lot of effort ro keep the person restrained. If I get a grip on someones wrist they are not going to get free of my grip unless they hit me. I feel confident about my grip strength and how I use it, some bouncers prefer to try and hurt people.

Taking someone to the ground in a restraint is an extreme last resort. I've taken one person to the ground at my current place of work, which was completely necessary at the time, However I did not put pressure on their back or kneel on them, this is dangerous, (mostly) unnecessary and will only end up in court.

Your friend was unlucky, but I doubt he was a perfect gent about the whole matter either. Standing his ground at the bar was the wrong move. It is totally possible to be diplomatic with people and speak with them away form other people/noise/music etc.

noelo

Dermighty wrote: »

For the record I'm a bouncer



their way of defusing the situation was telling him to let go of the bar.

For me the standard procedure if I see or hear of this kind of stuff happening is as follows:

1. Approach the customer
2. Tell them to come with me
3. When it is possible to talk I explain the situation, listen to them and then decide how to resolve the issue. This will end with them reentering the club, receiving a warning and reentering the club or just being removed from the club.

If someone refuses to move let go or whatever the scenario (assuming I do not have them restrained already) I ask again and a third time. If they do not respond I physically move them.

I do not like restraining people. I restrain people when they endanger people or repeatedly fail to comply with my request to follow me so I can speak with them.



In my experience nobody gets charged with public order offenses for being removed from a club. He was most likely charged with it because he was outside the club screaming abuse. This is just my opinion and may not be what actually happened, but probably was.


I'll attempt to show no bias when I say that your friend was most definitely at fault for a lot of what happened.

However the bouncers restraining his arms like that is extreme. Assuming the person is not trying to hit the bouncers: someone with their arms restrained behind their back at belt level is just as restrained as someone with their arms bent up to shoulder blade height. I don't use that technique because it uses a lot of effort ro keep the person restrained. If I get a grip on someones wrist they are not going to get free of my grip unless they hit me. I feel confident about my grip strength and how I use it, some bouncers prefer to try and hurt people.

Taking someone to the ground in a restraint is an extreme last resort. I've taken one person to the ground at my current place of work, which was completely necessary at the time, However I did not put pressure on their back or kneel on them, this is dangerous, (mostly) unnecessary and will only end up in court.

Your friend was unlucky, but I doubt he was a perfect gent about the whole matter either. Standing his ground at the bar was the wrong move. It is totally possible to be diplomatic with people and speak with them away form other people/noise/music etc.

Thanks for that dermighty, most definetely the public need more security with your professionalism. I aggree with you, If the security acted in this manner I am sure the outcome would be of been different. The question of the mans wrong doings I have established (and most definetely brough on by the righteousness the beer gave him) but the manner in which the security handled the situation is questionable, Thanks for reading and commenting, its appreciated.

MajorMax

Dermighty wrote: »

For the record I'm a bouncer



their way of defusing the situation was telling him to let go of the bar.

For me the standard procedure if I see or hear of this kind of stuff happening is as follows:

1. Approach the customer
2. Tell them to come with me
3. When it is possible to talk I explain the situation, listen to them and then decide how to resolve the issue. This will end with them reentering the club, receiving a warning and reentering the club or just being removed from the club.

If someone refuses to move let go or whatever the scenario (assuming I do not have them restrained already) I ask again and a third time. If they do not respond I physically move them.

I do not like restraining people. I restrain people when they endanger people or repeatedly fail to comply with my request to follow me so I can speak with them.



In my experience nobody gets charged with public order offenses for being removed from a club. He was most likely charged with it because he was outside the club screaming abuse. This is just my opinion and may not be what actually happened, but probably was.


I'll attempt to show no bias when I say that your friend was most definitely at fault for a lot of what happened.

However the bouncers restraining his arms like that is extreme. Assuming the person is not trying to hit the bouncers: someone with their arms restrained behind their back at belt level is just as restrained as someone with their arms bent up to shoulder blade height. I don't use that technique because it uses a lot of effort ro keep the person restrained. If I get a grip on someones wrist they are not going to get free of my grip unless they hit me. I feel confident about my grip strength and how I use it, some bouncers prefer to try and hurt people.

Taking someone to the ground in a restraint is an extreme last resort. I've taken one person to the ground at my current place of work, which was completely necessary at the time, However I did not put pressure on their back or kneel on them, this is dangerous, (mostly) unnecessary and will only end up in court.

Your friend was unlucky, but I doubt he was a perfect gent about the whole matter either. Standing his ground at the bar was the wrong move. It is totally possible to be diplomatic with people and speak with them away form other people/noise/music etc.

Good post, I wish more security people were professional like you,

I worked as a bouncer when I was younger and I met some really good guys who preferred to talk through any problems and never had any problems, they tended to be guys in their 30s & 40s.

The problems were caused by the guys in their 20s who seemed to be more anxious to throw their weight around and caused more hassle than they solved

noelo

MajorMax wrote: »

Good post, I wish more security people were professional like you,

I worked as a bouncer when I was younger and I met some really good guys who preferred to talk through any problems and never had any problems, they tended to be guys in their 30s & 40s.

The problems were caused by the guys in their 20s who seemed to be more anxious to throw their weight around and caused more hassle than they solved

I would agree with you, and even more so in the early 20's/very late teen. Additionally backround upbringing plays a big role to. But in this case my friend and I are in our mid 30's, it not normally for the man to act on the defence but he genuinely beleived excessive force was used resulting in proposed mistreatment possible assalt. The reason for this post is to get different views, the replied that are being posted are really good points of view and unbias which is brilliant.