ICR 22K DMU weigh 63.5 tonnes? WTF?

dermo88

I had the pleasure over the past two weeks holiday in Ireland of meeting some fellow enthusiasts and analysts. Drimnagh Road in particular, amongst others, and I look forward to meeting for beers around Christmas.

One thing he did clarify was that the new 22K DMU's weigh in at 63.5 tonnes, a figure which shocked me.

When I saw this first, I thought it was a misprint, I'd expect 53.5 tonnes, considering that the 29K DMU's weigh in at around 43 tonnes each, but what bumped up the weight so much?

Granted, I think they are a lovely unit, the nicest I have encountered on my travels, but a railcar weighing in at almost the same as a 121 Class Locomotive, that certainly has my mind boggled.

Anyone got an explanation. I expected DMU's to be more efficient, have a lower axleload, have less impact on the track, but now it looks as if a 6 car set at 387 tonnes weighs in the same as the 201 (113 tonnes), Gen Van (42 tonnes) and 6 Mk 3's (210 tonnes) it was intended to replace.

While the economies do add up on the premature replacement and lower maintainance costs, it seems a bit nuts to say the least. I mean, I did a cost comparison including reconditioning the Mk3's with Push/Pull....was there anything to stop Iarnrod Eireann from making the Mk 3 Gen Van into a Driving Vehicle Generator Van, or had the expertise in Inchicore been made redundant.

I am not knocking CIE or Iarnrod Eireann. BUT -

(a) I am questioning why a cheaper alternative could have been pursued?
(b) Could the Mk3's have been sent to the likes of Derby in Britain and rebuilt in the manner I mentioned?
(c) Would it be worthwhile getting an extra 15-20 years out of these vehicles and get their full lifetime value for an extra 600,000 Euro per vehicle (30,000 Euro depreciation per annum per coach)
(d) Would it damage the structural integrity of the Mk 3 bodyshell, bearing in mind it is of monocoque construction.
(e) Would it save on fuel and staff?

For it seems to me, nice as the 22K's are, that they are the heavy harney of the DMU world.

goingnowhere

You might want to check your numbers

http://www.hyundai-rotem.co.kr/Eng/Common/data/cy_pro_rilmtor04.pdf

Seems to say 47.8 tons empty, 59.1 tons fully loaded (as in 150 passengers plus full fuel and water tanks)

Shipping manifest matches up as well with a 48,504kg weight
http://thewandererphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/Network-Improvements/IEs-new-22000-Class-DMUs-2011/17289482_CKT2XN#1312420989_WqfD5Qj

Losty Dublin

goingnowhere wrote: »

You might want to check your numbers

http://www.hyundai-rotem.co.kr/Eng/Common/data/cy_pro_rilmtor04.pdf

Seems to say 47.8 tons empty, 59.1 tons fully loaded (as in 150 passengers plus full fuel and water tanks)

Shipping manifest matches up as well with a 48,504kg weight
http://thewandererphotos.smugmug.com/Trains/Network-Improvements/IEs-new-22000-Class-DMUs-2011/17289482_CKT2XN#1312420989_WqfD5Qj

Don't forget that the 22000 are a metre longer than the Mitsui/CAF sets, they have more ancillary generators and equipment fitted, they have a heavier engine and bogies, they have larger fuel and water/WC tanks, more internal fittings plus they are made with a heavier body shell.

Jehuty42

Coincidentally I was reading the latest accident report from the RAIU(http://www.raiu.ie/uploads/raiu/2011R007_LC(XM250).pdf) and it states "the three carriage unit is 70 m long and has a mass of 189 tonnes". Divide that by 3 and you get 63 tonnes, which might be the source of confusion? Of course the three carriages are not of equal mass, so that straight division isn't accurate. The driving trailers are probably heavier, and in a six car set the buffet car would add some variance.

Losty Dublin

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Coincidentally I was reading the latest accident report from the RAIU(http://www.raiu.ie/uploads/raiu/2011R007_LC(XM250).pdf) and it states "the three carriage unit is 70 m long and has a mass of 189 tonnes". Divide that by 3 and you get 63 tonnes, which might be the source of confusion? Of course the three carriages are not of equal mass, so that straight division isn't accurate. The driving trailers are probably heavier, and in a six car set the buffet car would add some variance.

That report refers to the crossing as being just 29 minutes away from Athlone (page iii) and it's not the first time for the RAIC to have made this sort of mistake before in a report. If they can't get basic facts such as accident locations right then what hope have they about train weights?:rolleyes:

Victor

Losty Dublin wrote: »

That report refers to the crossing as being just 29 minutes away from Athlone (page iii) and it's not the first time for the RAIC to have made this sort of mistake before in a report. If they can't get basic facts such as accident locations right then what hope have they about train weights?:rolleyes:

If you believe there are errors in the report(s), it might be useful to pass them along to the RAIU.

dermo88

47.8 tonnes, 48.5 tonnes seems perfectly reasonably weightwise for a unit of this quality, and is equivalent to what I would expect.

63.5 tonnes. This the first time I ever saw a Multiple Unit quoted at its fully loaded to the absolute maximum weight. 60+ passengers I'd expect to weigh 5 tonnes per coach. The rest.....fuel and water....I am not well informed enough to figure that out.

My suspicious mind would think that there are a hardcore within Iarnrod Eireann who would like to retain the loco hauled stock, so 'bumped up' the weight in reports to make them look bad. That sounds far fetched, but when you have lazy journalists and ministers who won't go too far to find the truth, then problems will follow.

Thanks for helping to clear the fog though.

Cookie_Monster

dermo88 wrote: »

My suspicious mind would think that there are a hardcore within Iarnrod Eireann who would like to retain the loco hauled stock,

much as I'd love to believe that, the treatment of the mk3 and 201's, not to mention the hugely accelerated withdrawal of the remaining 141s last year would put paid to that theory imo

Losty Dublin

dermo88 wrote: »

47.8 tonnes, 48.5 tonnes seems perfectly reasonably weightwise for a unit of this quality, and is equivalent to what I would expect.

63.5 tonnes. This the first time I ever saw a Multiple Unit quoted at its fully loaded to the absolute maximum weight. 60+ passengers I'd expect to weigh 5 tonnes per coach. The rest.....fuel and water....I am not well informed enough to figure that out.

My suspicious mind would think that there are a hardcore within Iarnrod Eireann who would like to retain the loco hauled stock, so 'bumped up' the weight in reports to make them look bad. That sounds far fetched, but when you have lazy journalists and ministers who won't go too far to find the truth, then problems will follow.

Thanks for helping to clear the fog though.

Dermo, going by the photo link about and the 63 tonne spec is well off the wall. That said, in service the weights carried will be higher than the off the shelf weight.

Say the average passengers on a train weights 14 stone and you have 60 skulls on board; allow for bags and you have two tonnes. A 22000 DMU carries 1,500 litres of fuel so that's about 1.3 tonnes. When you consider that water is needed for the WC plus a contained tank for waste from same, that's reasonably another 2 tonnes per WC; all told that's 54 tonnes.

All of a sudden you have almost 5.5 tonnes to add on per carriage.

You are right, there are drivers who prefer the loco but there are many who prefer DMU for their own reasons.

Victor

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Say the average passengers on a train weights 14 stone and you have 60 skulls on board; allow for bags and you have two tonnes. A 22000 DMU carries 1,500 litres of fuel so that's about 1.3 tonnes. When you consider that water is needed for the WC plus a contained tank for waste from same, that's reasonably another 2 tonnes per WC; all told that's 54 tonnes.

The usual weight taken for a passenger is 80kg. Passengers are allowed 50kg of luggage. Carriages carry 37-72 passengers seated, more standing. Add fuel and water. Do all carriages have one WC?

80kg x 72 = 5,760
50kg x 72 = 3,600
1,300kg x 1 = 1,300
2,000kg x 1 = 2,000
Sub-total 12,660
Train 47,800
Total 60,460

Its not unreasonable to think that the driver, lubricants, air conditioning fluid, some standing passengers, etc. could add a bit more.