John Allen cuts 9 from Limerick panel

lala88

When Justin McCarthy droped some of the older lads the whole panel walked out on him you would think they should be doing the same now so its the same thing with some. This of coure wont happen as player power wins once more, the Limerick players reasons for going on strike was because of the way it was dealt with thats a load of bull the real reason was player power and getting the manager they wanted same as with Cork. People can say what they want but Cork have set the precedent that if you dont get what you want then strike and you will. When Justin McCarthy droped the players in 09 he had every right to he was the manager and it was his call nothing to do with the players

Kerrydude1981

lala88 wrote: »

When Justin McCarthy droped some of the older lads the whole panel walked out on him you would think they should be doing the same now so its the same thing with some. This of coure wont happen as player power wins once more, the Limerick players reasons for going on strike was because of the way it was dealt with thats a load of bull the real reason was player power and getting the manager they wanted same as with Cork. People can say what they want but Cork have set the precedent that if you dont get what you want then strike and you will. When Justin McCarthy droped the players in 09 he had every right to he was the manager and it was his call nothing to do with the players

Heard about this on the news,I suppose he is giving the youth their chance for 2012.


Nine players have been dropped from the Limerick hurling panel by new manager John Allen.
Allen only took the reins at Limerick last week, but has already made sweeping changes to the group of players at his disposal.
RTÉ's Martin Kiely said: "It appears that nine players have been cut from the panel and that manager John Allen rang the players over the course of the past two days.

"I also believe that the players had a fitness test last Saurday and were given a personal three-week training plan.
"But few would have thought that he would have acted so fast. The players gone are thought to be Stephen Lucey, Donie Ryan, Damien Reale, Paudie O'Brien, Eoin Ryan, Brian Murray, Paudie McNamara, Pat Tobin and Ciaran O'Rourke.
"Quite a few of those played in this year's league and Championship.
"From Allen's point of view, Limerick have a lot of quality young players, and given the success that Limerick had at under-21 level in Munster against Cork this year, he's building a team for the future.
"He can't be faulted for the fact that he's acted early."
Kiely went on to say he felt strike action was unlikely and that the dropped players will be told to prove themselves at club level.
"There's an old line in hurling: 'the door is always open'. I think Allen and his team will adopt the same policy. But if you want to get back you're going to have to perform for your club.
"It's never easy to drop someone from a team, whether it's under-14, under-21 or senior. He could have prolonged the situation, I'm not surprised. I think he's taken the view he's building the team for the future.
"The average age of winning teams now is 23- or 24-years-of-age. The lifetime of an inter-county hurler is not what it was. If you're going to perform you're going to have to have a good engine and I think that's the policy he will adopt."

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2011/1018/limerick_allenj.html

grenache

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Heard about this on the news,I suppose he is giving the youth their chance for 2012.


Nine players have been dropped from the Limerick hurling panel by new manager John Allen.
Allen only took the reins at Limerick last week, but has already made sweeping changes to the group of players at his disposal.
RTÉ's Martin Kiely said: "It appears that nine players have been cut from the panel and that manager John Allen rang the players over the course of the past two days.

"I also believe that the players had a fitness test last Saurday and were given a personal three-week training plan.
"But few would have thought that he would have acted so fast. The players gone are thought to be Stephen Lucey, Donie Ryan, Damien Reale, Paudie O'Brien, Eoin Ryan, Brian Murray, Paudie McNamara, Pat Tobin and Ciaran O'Rourke."Quite a few of those played in this year's league and Championship.
"From Allen's point of view, Limerick have a lot of quality young players, and given the success that Limerick had at under-21 level in Munster against Cork this year, he's building a team for the future.
"He can't be faulted for the fact that he's acted early."
Kiely went on to say he felt strike action was unlikely and that the dropped players will be told to prove themselves at club level.
"There's an old line in hurling: 'the door is always open'. I think Allen and his team will adopt the same policy. But if you want to get back you're going to have to perform for your club.
"It's never easy to drop someone from a team, whether it's under-14, under-21 or senior. He could have prolonged the situation, I'm not surprised. I think he's taken the view he's building the team for the future.
"The average age of winning teams now is 23- or 24-years-of-age. The lifetime of an inter-county hurler is not what it was. If you're going to perform you're going to have to have a good engine and I think that's the policy he will adopt."

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2011/1018/limerick_allenj.html

Of those dropped, i personally would have kept Lucey, Reale and Tobin. Lucey is needed at full back, although Pat Begley on the U-21 team had an out-standing year just gone at full back. Whether he'd be good enough to perform at senior level remains to be seen. Tobin is a proven point scorer at 15 and i think has been cruelly over-looked since 2007. Reale, while past his best, is still a relatively decent corner back who hasn't lost much of his pace.

The difference between Allen's culling and McCarthy's one in 2009, is that Allen had the decency and manners to inform each and every one of them on a individual basis. According to the media, only Mark Foley was directly contacted two years ago, with the other nine members given no direct notice.

lala88

grenache wrote: »

Of those dropped, i personally would have kept Lucey, Reale and Tobin. Lucey is needed at full back, although Pat Begley on the U-21 team had an out-standing year just gone at full back. Whether he'd be good enough to perform at senior level remains to be seen. Tobin is a proven point scorer at 15 and i think has been cruelly over-looked since 2007. Reale, while past his best, is still a relatively decent corner back who hasn't lost much of his pace.

The difference between Allen's culling and McCarthy's one in 2009, is that Allen had the decency and manners to inform each and every one of them on a individual basis. According to the media, only Mark Foley was directly contacted two years ago, with the other nine members given no direct notice.

I wouldn't agree with that. The players being droped was just an excuse for a strike and to force McCatrhy out. Sure he didn't tell each of them they were droped but its not like there the only players to have it happen to them.

If you look at the players who got droped in 2009 Ollie Moran, Mark Foley. Mike O'Brien and Andrew Shaughnessy retired anyway. Eoin Foley, Damien Cosgrove and Donncha Sheehan haven't been heard of since. Donie Ryan and Stephen Lucey have been dropped this time which leaves Niall Moran and Mark O'Riordan the only two valuable players (who played this year and are being retained). So most of the players he droped weren't making any impact anyway

premierstone

I dont get the big deal and dont like the spin some are trying to put on it, John Allen has not droped anyone, he has never named a Limerick panel before so how could he drop anyone?? Are people suggesting that because the 9 named above were part of last years panel they have some sort of god given right to be on this years panel?

Much ado about nothing imo and if any of the 9 are good enough to warrant inclusion at a later date im sure Allen is open minded enough to include them.

homerjay2005

panels are finalised in april or may, not in october ffs.

who ever has been writing this, needs to get real.

jordainius

lala88 wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with that. The players being droped was just an excuse for a strike and to force McCatrhy out. Sure he didn't tell each of them they were droped but its not like there the only players to have it happen to them.

If you look at the players who got droped in 2009 Ollie Moran, Mark Foley. Mike O'Brien and Andrew Shaughnessy retired anyway. Eoin Foley, Damien Cosgrove and Donncha Sheehan haven't been heard of since. Donie Ryan and Stephen Lucey have been dropped this time which leaves Niall Moran and Mark O'Riordan the only two valuable players (who played this year and are being retained). So most of the players he droped weren't making any impact anyway

Mike O'Brien and Andrew O'Shaughnessy did not retire anyway, Mike O'Brien gave a few interviews at the time stating his disappointment at being dropped and Justin not having the decency to inform him. O'Shaughnessy did NOT retire then, he retired last year before the league final. Ollie Moran or Mark Foley hadn't officially retired, Foley definitily wanted to continue and while Moran had indicated at the start of the year that it would probably be his last, he too gave interviews stating his displeasure at how he was dropped.

Some people love to blame the Limerick players for what happened then, Justin didn't have the decency to inform 11 of the 12 players that he was dropping them, John Allen has already shown he has the decency to do that. Also, Justin managed to completely lose two different dressing rooms in just 16 months.

Anyhow, as soon as I heard this I knew that some people would decice to put 2 and 2 together and get 3,772. 9 players were thanked for their services by John Allen and informed that they were not in his plans. Two of those players seem to have retired anyway and between them, those 9 players didn't even play an hour of championship hurling this year. None of them were making a significant contribution anymore.

I'd agree with grenache about keeping Lucey as we are very light on full back options, but he'll be 32 next year and he seems to have become somewhat injury prone. There's also the dual player issue.

lala88

jordainius wrote: »

Mike O'Brien and Andrew O'Shaughnessy did not retire anyway, Mike O'Brien gave a few interviews at the time stating his disappointment at being dropped and Justin not having the decency to inform him. O'Shaughnessy did NOT retire then, he retired last year before the league final. Ollie Moran or Mark Foley hadn't officially retired, Foley definitily wanted to continue and while Moran had indicated at the start of the year that it would probably be his last, he too gave interviews stating his displeasure at how he was dropped.

Some people love to blame the Limerick players for what happened then, Justin didn't have the decency to inform 11 of the 12 players that he was dropping them, John Allen has already shown he has the decency to do that. Also, Justin managed to completely lose two different dressing rooms in just 16 months.

Anyhow, as soon as I heard this I knew that some people would decice to put 2 and 2 together and get 3,772. 9 players were thanked for their services by John Allen and informed that they were not in his plans. Two of those players seem to have retired anyway and between them, those 9 players didn't even play an hour of championship hurling this year. None of them were making a significant contribution anymore.

I'd agree with grenache about keeping Lucey as we are very light on full back options, but he'll be 32 next year and he seems to have become somewhat injury prone. There's also the dual player issue.

Sure he could have done it better but just like Cork the Limerick players made out that they were the only ones it had ever happened to and had the excuse they wanted/needed to push him out and get the manager they wanted.

jordainius

lala88 wrote: »

Sure he could have done it better but just like Cork the Limerick players made out that they were the only ones it had ever happened to and had the excuse they wanted/needed to push him out and get the manager they wanted.

Could you please explain the part I have highlighted in bold, with links to relevant articles if possible? And who was the manager you claim they wanted? Because Donal O'Grady was appointed based on the recommendation of an independent 3 man committee.

And Limerick's players were right to withdraw their services, Justin was a disaster. No man handling skills, too arrogant. The players had been voicing their concerns for months about training and tactical issues, he ignored them. When the semi final disaster v Tipp happened, did it occur to him that he should maybe have listened? No. He put the blame entirely on the players, blamed it on a group of players he saw as a clique and ignored them off the panel. He showed no respect for a group of players who between them had well over 200 championship games played for Limerick, another 12 players were unhappy at how their long time friends/teammates were treated and pulled out.

Enright

Lads i know its a limerick thing, but leave the justin bashing to one side. Lets get behind the new manager and the squad and hopefully we will have good days again supporting our team

lala88

jordainius wrote: »

Could you please explain the part I have highlighted in bold, with links to relevant articles if possible? And who was the manager you claim they wanted? Because Donal O'Grady was appointed based on the recommendation of an independent 3 man committee.

And Limerick's players were right to withdraw their services, Justin was a disaster. No man handling skills, too arrogant. The players had been voicing their concerns for months about training and tactical issues, he ignored them. When the semi final disaster v Tipp happened, did it occur to him that he should maybe have listened? No. He put the blame entirely on the players, blamed it on a group of players he saw as a clique and ignored them off the panel. He showed no respect for a group of players who between them had well over 200 championship games played for Limerick, another 12 players were unhappy at how their long time friends/teammates were treated and pulled out.

They got droped off the panel it happens in every county and im sure its not always done in the right way but at the end of the day that was his call not the players. Well cleary they wanted a new manager and they didn't get what they wanted so they went on strike simple really.
At the end of the day players are there to play and not to deside who gets picked and who gets droped thats up to the manager and there not always going to make the right call but its there call not the players. Since the Cork strikes and to a lesser extent since the GPA came along this whole player power thing has come along and when things dont go there way they strike till they get what they want!

Mountainlad

Can't be a coincidence that this happened twice to Justin McCarthy. Great hurling man, but it would appear he is slow to recognise his own short comings, and did little to rectify it. Hostility between players and management can't exist. Conflicts naturally arise, but to ignore them and keep doing it your own way means they'll only come back to bite you in the long run!

premierstone

Mountainlad wrote: »

Can't be a coincidence that this happened twice to Justin McCarthy. Great hurling man, but it would appear he is slow to recognise his own short comings, and did little to rectify it. Hostility between players and management can't exist. Conflicts naturally arise, but to ignore them and keep doing it your own way means they'll only come back to bite you in the long run!

Aslo no coincidence that McCarthy has won more in the game as both a player and manager that the entire Limerick and Waterford panels combined, the game hasnt changed that much!

Fireball07

First of all, it's not like any panel for the Championship is finalised in October so if any of those players are in form, they will probably be included.

And at least he told them personally but my main problem with McCarthy was that he dropped Niall Moran when he was in great form. But the whole thing was just handled very badly.


As for this time...Stephen Lucey, Donie Ryan, Damien Reale, Paudie O'Brien, Eoin Ryan, Brian Murray, Paudie McNamara, Pat Tobin and Ciaran O'Rourke.

Lucey- possibly an option at full-back where we don't have a natural one. But I'm not sure he has what it takes anymore and is a better footballer anyway (imo).

Reale- Sadly, looked like he was past it last year. I would have thought his experience would be good around a young panel and could be a good player to bring off the bench, one of the best corner-backs of the last 10 years.

Murray- Lost his place in any case, and I think Aaron Murphy was 2nd choice last year and looks a great prospect. No complaints there.

Donie Ryan- Past it now.

Pat Tobin- I think we have better options in young players.

Paudie Mac- Great in 2009, suffered a massive loss in form since then. Shouldn't have been anywhere near the panel last year.

Eoin Ryan- Maybe slightly surprised. Was a very promising minor, and I thought he did reasonably well in the league. I really thought he might push for a starting spot this year and he's an excellent free-taker too.

Paudie O'Brien- Hard to tell with him...probably not good enough to start at intercounty level but I thought he might be included.

Kieran O'Rourke- I thought he was the best player on Justin's team in 2010, I was surprised we didn't see him at all last year.



But if Shane Dowling, Conor Allis, Seanie O'Brien, Pat Begley, Alan Dempsey and maybe one or two others are going to make the step up, then people have to make way.


Shane Dowling should start next year. Last year we were lacking another 1 or 2 clinical forwards and he's brilliant.

premierstone

Fireball07 wrote: »

Reale- Sadly, looked like he was past it last year. I would have thought his experience would be good around a young panel and could be a good player to bring off the bench, one of the best corner-backs of the last 10 years.

Reale actually retired himself as did Donie Ryan si I dont really think Allen has actually done anything drastic here at all and it really is a case of certain elements in the media looking for a story that doesnt exist.

Fireball07

premierstone wrote: »

Reale actually retired himself as did Donie Ryan si I dont really think Allen has actually done anything drastic here at all and it really is a case of certain elements in the media looking for a story that doesnt exist.

Oh well I didn't even hear that. Nothing that can be done about that so...and I agree with you.



Still, it's kinda sad to see Reale go. Fantastic player. One of the best man markers around on his day.

jordainius

lala88 wrote: »

They got droped off the panel it happens in every county and im sure its not always done in the right way but at the end of the day that was his call not the players. Well cleary they wanted a new manager and they didn't get what they wanted so they went on strike simple really.

At the end of the day players are there to play and not to deside who gets picked and who gets droped thats up to the manager and there not always going to make the right call but its there call not the players. Since the Cork strikes and to a lesser extent since the GPA came along this whole player power thing has come along and when things dont go there way they strike till they get what they want!

The players are not only there to play, they're there to spend hundreds of hours training every year, they go on weight training programs every winter, intensive fitness training in the spring, they have to mind themselves as though they are professionals in terms of how they eat and other area's of their lives, and aspects of their personal life suffer too in terms of missed hours with family and so on. So they have the right to have a say (note, I did not say full say) in how things are done, and they certainly have the right to walk away if the manager doesn't respect them.

You can make generalisations all you like about players being there to play, but it's not always that simple, I've already outlined in my previous post why Justin's position was untenable.

There was no strike in Limerick, 12 players decided that they could not play under Justin no more not only in protest at how he ignored the first 12 players off the panel, but also as a result of many many problems during the year which were touched upon in my first post.

Unfortunately there will always be many who choose to keep their head in the sand and condemn players for walking away without actually taking a minute to understand why the players walk away.

It's funny how people are up in arms about the prospect of professionalism or pay for play (neither of which I support) being introduced for the players, yet at the same time people by and large seem to expect a professional standard from the players acting as though they are obliged to do all that work regardless of the conditions and not complain if the set up isn't up to scratch.

Mountainlad

premierstone wrote: »

Aslo no coincidence that McCarthy has won more in the game as both a player and manager that the entire Limerick and Waterford panels combined, the game hasnt changed that much!

Completely disagree there.

He was great coach, but you'd have to say it is incredible how different in terms of fitness and commitment things are now. McCarthy himself even says that the game is faster now then it was back in his time (if you haven't read his autobiography, you should, it's a very good book.)

If McCarthy had taken over Tipp in 2008 they'd be a different team, and I don't think as successful. He would easily have been one of the best managers through the 70's and 80's, but failure to adapt (you can't blame him for that to be fair, he believes in what he grew up with and has believed all his life) means he could only take Waterford so far. In saying that, I acknowledge he took Waterford further than most could, but I do think we were capable of winning an all-ireland.

So basically, Justin has been great for hurling, but Waterford were right to get rid of him, and he should never have even gone to Limerick.

This has probably gone a bit off-topic

Then again, it would appear there is very little to discuss in terms of the actual thread topic!

premierstone

Mountainlad wrote: »

Completely disagree there.

He was great coach, but you'd have to say it is incredible how different in terms of fitness and commitment things are now. McCarthy himself even says that the game is faster now then it was back in his time (if you haven't read his autobiography, you should, it's a very good book.)

If McCarthy had taken over Tipp in 2008 they'd be a different team, and I don't think as successful. He would easily have been one of the best managers through the 70's and 80's, but failure to adapt (you can't blame him for that to be fair, he believes in what he grew up with and has believed all his life) means he could only take Waterford so far. In saying that, I acknowledge he took Waterford further than most could, but I do think we were capable of winning an all-ireland.

So basically, Justin has been great for hurling, but Waterford were right to get rid of him, and he should never have even gone to Limerick.

This has probably gone a bit off-topic

Then again, it would appear there is very little to discuss in terms of the actual thread topic!

Do you think that Waterford werent fit enough under Justin? I never heard that been touted at the time, we were lead to believe that he's man management skills left alot to be desired and training had gone stale surely that has nothing to do with the evolution of the game, does anyone here think Brian Cody pampers to players demands to be treated with more respect and pampered?

Eamon O'Shea is widly acknowledged as having played a huge role in Tipp transformation since 2008 and he is from the same generation as Justin and having attended trainings with both they are very very similar in approach, so in answer I have no idea how Justin would have got on with Tipp, unfortunatley for him we dont do outside managers and he will never have the chance to complete the full set of managerial posts in Munster.

It is interesting though that he persided over a Cork team that won three munsters in a row and the centenerary AI, a Clare team that came from knowhere to winning a national title(when same actually meant alot more than today), a Waterford team that enjoyed its most successfull period in two generations, an Antrim team that came literally from knowhere to winning an AI at Intermediate level, he also had a very successfull club managemnt career, so really the only blot is the tenure in Limerick with what was in the cold light of day a group of players that won nothing before or since, I know who's opinion Id respect more tbh.

brucechan

Justin Mac actually did DO'G and Limerick hurling a FAVOUR. There wasnt a squeak out of the players last year. A tough call had to be made and he made it. Not the best man manager in the world but players are not entitled to their place on the team, they must earn it.