PDGE Level 8 - downgrade?

highly1111

Hi

Please read the article on the below link discussing the fact that UCD were recently told that the PDGE has been downgraded from a Level 9 award to a level 8.

http://www.morestresslesssuccess.ie/

I did my PDGE and graduated in 2010 - there is talk on our facebook page that they are also going to downgrade the qualification so that anyone who did the dip from 2004 onwards will retrospectively have their qualification changed - now, this seems like complete horsesh1t to me as legally I reckon there is no way in the world that this can be done - you cannot change the terms and conditions of a course after it has been paid for and completed - although i'm not a solicitor so of course, I could be wrong. Now, personally I never thought it was a level 9 as its not a Masters but obviously there could be massive implications for new teachers in the future - if they downgrade the level of the dip, does that mean that those who completed it when it was a level 9 are now more qualified and therefore can demand a higher pay grade?? will there be any other material changes to the course? Seems paradoxical to me that they want to lenghten the course yet downgrade the qualification??

Has anyone any further information on this? Someone on the facebook page has already emailed the Teaching Council and the ASTI but they have no further information on it.

(I tried to find a thread focussed on the PDGE for this year but was unable to do so, so apologies if this issue has already been brought up)

Mardy Bum

Its not being downgraded. It was a had been a floating qualification since the establishment of the NQAI though it was assumed to be a level 9 because of the title. The change has been carried out to standardise higher education across the EU as part of a European Union directive.

The name of the course will be changed to the Professional Diploma in Education

Concerns regarding grants for those yet to do the course have been allayed as there is word of legislation being brought in the make the course an exemption from the rule that you must continue up levels if you want the grant.

The larger question which needs to be answered is why the degree had been given its title (PGDE) in the first place as it was never a post grad degree as defined by NQAI?

UnLuckyAgain

highly1111 wrote: »

Hi

I did my PDGE and graduated in 2010 - there is talk on our facebook page that they are also going to downgrade the qualification so that anyone who did the dip from 2004 onwards will retrospectively have their qualification changed - now, this seems like complete horsesh1t to me as legally I reckon there is no way in the world that this can be done - you cannot change the terms and conditions of a course after it has been paid for and completed - although i'm not a solicitor so of course, I could be wrong. Now, personally I never thought it was a level 9 as its not a Masters but obviously there could be massive implications for new teachers in the future - if they downgrade the level of the dip, does that mean that those who completed it when it was a level 9 are now more qualified and therefore can demand a higher pay grade?? will there be any other material changes to the course? Seems paradoxical to me that they want to lenghten the course yet downgrade the qualification??

Well anyone who did the Higher Diploma in Education (H.Dip.Ed) between 1912 - 2004 was the equivalent of level 8 apparently (I say equivalent as the NQAI was not around back in the day), as are all H.Dips in any subject. According to the DES and the NQAI, EVERY teaching qualification will be level 8 so retrospectively, there is no discrepancy. So no one would have done it "when it was a level 9" according to the authorities. What I don't understand is why the new two-year programme will be level 9... as those graduates could argue for higher pay as they will be 'more qualified' than any other teacher. Isn't the government's agenda to CUT future pay?!

wolfyboy555

Hi,

I'm currently doing what i thought was the Post Graduate Diploma in Education in NUIM. However, it was onky announced to us today by the head of the department that it will now be called the Professional Diploma in Education and also be a certified level 8 course. He did say that it was a floating qualification and was never technically a level 9 although this is implied by the name of the course itself especially looking here http://www.nfq.ie/nfq/en/FanDiagram/nqai_nfq_08.html.

Basically what i gathered from today was that it will not be a level 8 and all previous holders of the PDGE will also be 'downgraded' to bring eveyone on the same plane. However, he did say that he was hopeful that when the course becomes a 2 year course that it will be bumped back up to a level 9 and also the name changed back to the PDGE which i think it ridiculous. It will lead to a situation where there will be teachers who have done the same course yet one will be more qualified and more importantly principals will be more favourite to a level 9 than a level 8 i'm sure. The way they have gone about changing this is ridiculous especially since we are already a month into the course which we have paid 6.5 K for. How can they just turn around and say that it's all being changed.

donegal11

If this two year course comes in will there be no new teaching graduates in 2013 and what'll happen to dcu's course will it become 4 years. And as far as the course levels go it will make no difference in any respect, grant, job or otherwise. Does anyone actually think they did a better course in 2007 compared to someone in 2004 doing the exact same modules, just because it level 9? And as someone pointed out level 9 degrees should perhaps be reserved for masters, when there is a substantial amount of research involved in a thesis.

Lord TSC

So...does this mean I have to change my letters to PDE instead of PDGE :S Or is it just applying to those finishing the course from this year on? If not, are they writing out to people to explain this?

Mardy Bum

wolfyboy555 wrote: »

However, he did say that he was hopeful that when the course becomes a 2 year course that it will be bumped back up to a level 9 and also the name changed back to the PDGE which i think it ridiculous. It will lead to a situation where there will be teachers who have done the same course yet one will be more qualified and more importantly principals will be more favourite to a level 9 than a level 8 i'm sure.

Principals will be more interested in experience I'd say as thats the most important thing at the minute and will be for a long time until there is a reversal of the current situation.

RealJohn

Mardy Bum wrote: »

wolfyboy555 wrote: »

However, he did say that he was hopeful that when the course becomes a 2 year course that it will be bumped back up to a level 9 and also the name changed back to the PDGE which i think it ridiculous. It will lead to a situation where there will be teachers who have done the same course yet one will be more qualified and more importantly principals will be more favourite to a level 9 than a level 8 i'm sure.

Principals will be more interested in experience I'd say as thats the most important thing at the minute and will be for a long time until there is a reversal of the current situation.

This ought to be the case of course. Principals know the score and they know the dip hasn't changed that drastically. The worry would be that they might worry that someone with a level 9 would take a case against them if they hired a level 8 ahead of them but ultimately there wouldn't be a case to answer since they can always say that the person they hired seemed to be the better fit for the school in the interview.

Lord TSC

Sure everyone just calls it the Dip anyway :pac:

dory

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Sure everyone just calls it the Dip anyway :pac:

Exactly, I really don't see how this makes a difference. You're qualified to teach and that's that really. Admittedly it was a bit mad of them not to make it clear that it wasn't ever a Level whatever course - just someone thought it might maybe be.

Happyzebra

I did the dip a couple of years ago and it was clearly advertised as the postgraduate diploma in education....surely that's false advertising? No I don't think that this should be accepted. From the point of view of teaching yes it probably makes little difference but I did not get the academic qualification I paid 6 grand for. Way back then when I rang the college to inquire as to the level of the course I was told that it was level 9.

whiteandlight

I'm between two minds here. I agree its really always just been called the dip. However I paid 6000+ for a course which was called the Post Graduate Diploma in Education, not a professional .. crap or whatever they are changing it to. I'm kinda with Happy Zebra here in that I paid for a PGDE and I don't know how they're going to go about taking it off me now!

DKeogh

UCD unilaterally downgraded the Post Graduate Diploma in Education (PGDE) nearly 7 weeks into the course to a Level 8 calling it a Professional Diploma in Education or a PDE.

Basically the message coming from UCD is what don't you understand about what a 'fait accompli' means! There is an expectation for the student teachers to just suck it up and take it while at the same time asking for their professionalism and for lines to be drawn in the sand and to get on with things while at the same time admission to them that there are no answers to some of their questions nor practical or valid reasons for the decision.

Can anyone seriously believe that an Institution embarking on a change wouldn't work out all the implications and have their ducks in a row and everything laid out. Change Management 101 - it's very basic thing but seems to have been unimportant when dealing with something like students, their course and other such trivial things like that!

This downgrading is to apply retrospectively backwards to ALL PGDE students (yes, that's right, anyone with a PGDE qualification since they commenced, you are being classified as a Level 8 and that any qualification regardless of its title will be a Level 8)

Referencing the National Qualifications Framework, a Post Graduate Diploma is classified as a Level 9 and a Higher Diploma as a Level 8. UCD deny this even though they had an Academic Council meeting to discuss placing it at Level 8 and are relying on statement such as:

"the Teaching Qualification never had any level"
"it was a floating level"
"it was anomalous"

Interestingly platitudes, but, it would appear that the powers to be in UCD at some point called the course a Post Graduate Diploma placing it at Level 9 on the Framework and thus one can only guess affording them the opportunity to charge higher fees whilst at the same time failing or not bothering to have a level formally agreed (if you believe the floating / anomalous explanation).

A key concern in this area MUST be the following:
If an authority such as UCD can have a floating / anomalous qualification with no rating on the Irish National Qualification Framework how can students be assured about anything about their qualification? In fact, are there any other qualifications in UCD where there are currently no formal ratings on the NFQ - surely a matter of pressing interest for all the student body of UCD not just the PGDE students.

It doesn't inspire confidence or faith and any trite comments about 'hindsight is a wonderful thing' are derogatory and disingenuous to the students of the PGDE.

This should serve to highlight that there is and was something fundamentally wrong and broken in UCD around the PGDE which tears at the heart of confidence in the institution and from an international perspective impacts on the students and thus is reputationally damaging to the standing of UCD itself.

And here are the students of PGDE 2011 caught in the middle of it all while being asked to be professional and get on with things and take your medicine!

Some unanswered questions (and by that we mean no formal letters, no letter heads, no formal display of information to prove any assertions):

• Can students access grants as there is no visible progression with classification at Level 8
• How will the qualification be viewed abroad, will it be accepted abroad
• How will all the students graduating with their certificate scrolls in two weeks time feel about having PDE stamped on their qualification
• Why the name change to PDE when PDGE is also a recognised name for the qualification type in the UK
• The students entered into a contract with UCD with offer, acceptance and consideration for an advertised and marketed Post Graduate Diploma (which still stands at Level 9 on the NFQ)
• Why a Professional Diploma has less credits than a Post Graduate Diploma - how will this work if an international employer looks up what a Professional Diploma is and see the number of credits is lower than they would have expected for a teaching qualification
• Why student grant forms were stamped as Level 9 and does this have any impact on UCD from the dispersing authorities - they were also being lead to believe it was Level 9 by this
• Why Europass Diploma Supplements are being stamped as Level 9
• Why were the students only informed of this change AFTER they had paid the first part of their fees
• Why was there no proper and timely notification
• Why are the 'legitimate expectations' of the students being violated

There are so many unanswered questions and the UCD PGDE class are being treated churlishly and not even being afforded basic natural justice or equity.

Answers are needed and they are not forthcoming from UCD who appear to be engaging in a 'stone walling' approach in an attempt to sweep the PGDE and the students in the class under the carpet and into oblivion in a hasty attempt to probably correct some administrative and legal deficiency.

Of course, this issue is not one alone for UCD, it affects all other institutions delivering teaching this year, last year and in all previous years. It impacts all teachers, past, present and future.

The students of the UCD PGDE 2011/2012 simply want that - they want their Level 9 qualification called a Post Graduate Diploma in Education which they paid for!

vamos!

I understand how they could downgrade a course while youre doing it. Dont agree with it as its not what you signed up to do but how can they downgrade the people who have their scroll in their hand? Are they going to come to our houses and demand it back? What about Trinity, they still call it the H-dip, right? Will they be classed as having a better qualification? This makes no sense.

trebormurf

Provided they all pass!!

Mardy Bum

Can students access grants as there is no visible progression with classification at Level 8

There is already word of legislation being brought in to make the PDE an exemption to the current grant rulings

How will the qualification be viewed abroad, will it be accepted abroad

The reason this legislation is being brought is to standardise teaching across the EU. The main issue is if and when the other countries come on board but is should be soon as it has been ratified.

How will all the students graduating with their certificate scrolls in two weeks time feel about having PDE stamped on their qualification

What difference does it make it is still a qualification to teach. If you want a masters qualification doing a masters would have been appropriate.

The students entered into a contract with UCD with offer, acceptance and consideration for an advertised and marketed Post Graduate Diploma

That was just a name nothing more, its been called different names all over the country and the diploma still amounts to the same qualification.

Why student grant forms were stamped as Level 9 and does this have any impact on UCD from the dispersing authorities - they were also being lead to believe it was Level 9 by this

This is true. There was a complete ambiguity regarding its status and this is seems to be due to laziness of NQAI or NUI in not making it clear. It is regardless though.

Why were the students only informed of this change AFTER they had paid the first part of their fees

It was only ratified at the end of September but obviously they could have informed applicants about the conference before hand.


I can understand the bitterness though at the situation but I don't understand why people thought they were getting the equivalent of a masters when it is no such thing.

rainbowtrout

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I can understand the bitterness though at the situation but I don't understand why people thought they were getting the equivalent of a masters when it is no such thing.

This bit I don't understand either. Considering that there are many people doing teacher training courses and becoming qualified teachers at Level 8 as standard, I don't understand what the big deal is, aside from grants and it has already been said that there will be an exemption in this instance.

I have a BSc. Science Education. It doesn't make me any more or less qualified than the person who does the BSc + HDip/PGDE etc etc. We still get all the same allowances for teaching.

TopTeacher

Lads and ladies,
I am a Trainee teacher in NUIM, same story there...am in consultation with legal professionals and conducting research into public administration law. This appears thus far to be a case of denial of 'acquired rights' since we not dealing with a private body and thus 'breach of contract' is not the correct term to define what is being done to us and those who have already achieved the qualification. I suggest each university collates data by means of a student survey, see PGDE facebook page for a link to Zoomerang survey created for NUIM and use this data as apposite statistical evidence to be included in letters requesting a reconsideration of this decision that are sent to the Minister for Education and other relevant authorities, stating our case and inviting a response, in the event of a non response we march on the Dail and initiate legal proceedings.
Apathy is the worst quality in a teacher in my opinion.

'if we ignore our rights they will go away'

delta_bravo

DKeogh wrote: »

UCD unilaterally downgraded the Post Graduate Diploma in Education (PGDE) nearly 7 weeks into the course to a Level 8 calling it a Professional Diploma in Education or a PDE.

• Can students access grants as there is no visible progression with classification at Level 8
  

There are so many unanswered questions and the UCD PGDE class are being treated churlishly and not even being afforded basic natural justice or equity.


The students of the UCD PGDE 2011/2012 simply want that - they want their Level 9 qualification called a Post Graduate Diploma in Education which they paid for!

You seem to be blaming UCD for everything here. It was the NQAI in conjunction with the DES that did this.

Regarding grants, yes the PDE is eligible for a grant as it is regarded as progression beyond a undergrad degree. This was confirmed by the DES.

I think most of your lengthy post is very sensationalist. Especially the part about natural justice. This is academic administration, not the re-enactment of the penal laws.

It matters not a jot that it is not a level 9. Would you have refused to do the course if it was only a Level 8? It is a professional qualification. It couldn't be a level 9 as there is practically no research element involved: No dissertation, no thesis. That is one of the fundamental requirements of a postgraduate diploma or masters. To have it in the same category as a masters made no sense in the first place. You still get the "H.Dip allowance". There is a specific allowance for masters degrees and Phds.

It will be recognised just the same by the Teaching Council as it was before.

I am graduating on saturday from UCD with my PDE. The parchment is in latin, there will be no mention of Level 9 or 8 on it. My transcripts refer to a "graduate diploma". The hysteria about this thing is quite odd. People are blowing their lid over nothing.

So DKeogh, I ask you. If you knew it was a Level 8 beforehand would you have refused to do the course even though it affords you the exact same recognition as it did before?

Mardy Bum

TopTeacher wrote: »

Lads and ladies,
I am a Trainee teacher in NUIM, same story there...am in consultation with legal professionals and conducting research into public administration law. This appears thus far to be a case of denial of 'acquired rights' since we not dealing with a private body and thus 'breach of contract' is not the correct term to define what is being done to us and those who have already achieved the qualification. I suggest each university collates data by means of a student survey, see PGDE facebook page for a link to Zoomerang survey created for NUIM and use this data as apposite statistical evidence to be included in letters requesting a reconsideration of this decision that are sent to the Minister for Education and other relevant authorities, stating our case and inviting a response, in the event of a non response we march on the Dail and initiate legal proceedings.
Apathy is the worst quality in a teacher in my opinion.

'if we ignore our rights they will go away'

Where did it ever say it was a level 9 degree bar the misleading name which didn't actually mean it was a level 9 either?

Mardy Bum

delta_bravo wrote: »

So DKeogh, I ask you. If you knew it was a Level 8 beforehand would you have refused to do the course even though it affords you the exact same recognition as it did before?

Damn good question I would be fairly sure 100% of the class would still have done the course.

Alqua

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Where did it ever say it was a level 9 degree bar the misleading name which didn't actually mean it was a level 9 either?

Yep, nowhere! - apparently it never had a level in the first place, it has only just been assigned one, so nothing has changed! If you look at the list that compares our system of qualifications with England, England's PGCE is technically a level 8 as well. Maybe all the angry energy over this could be channelled towards highlighting other *real* issues..? There's certainly no shortage of them!

Toto Wolfcastle

Threads merged

Donegal17

Concerns regarding grants for those yet to do the course have been allayed as there is word of legislation being brought in the make the course an exemption from the rule that you must continue up levels if you want the grant.

Yes, but a lot of people pursued a postgraduate level 8 course to build up the necessary points for entry into the course. The exemption, I was led to believe, is for those coming directly from an undergraduate level 8 - the necessary 'progression' for qualification for a grant is the fact that they're moving from an undergraduate to a postgraduate course. Those people who are moving across the framework, from one postgraduate level 8 to another, are still in limbo as regards grants. Or, at least that's my understanding of it.

williamob

delta_bravo wrote: »

You seem to be blaming UCD for everything here. It was the NQAI in conjunction with the DES that did this.

It was the NQAI in conjunction with the DES who decided to grade this course a level 8. It was UCD who decided to unilaterally re-name the course PGDE in 2005 without getting NQAI authorisation first, thereby deliberately misleading students

Regarding grants, yes the PDE is eligible for a grant as it is regarded as progression beyond a undergrad degree. This was confirmed by the DES.

Shouldn't that perhaps make it a level 8.5 then?!

I think most of your lengthy post is very sensationalist. Especially the part about natural justice. This is academic administration, not the re-enactment of the penal laws.

People just asking for what they rightfully signed up and paid for. Your mention of the Penal Laws simply contradicts your sensationalist line of argument.

It matters not a jot that it is not a level 9. Would you have refused to do the course if it was only a Level 8? It is a professional qualification. It couldn't be a level 9 as there is practically no research element involved: No dissertation, no thesis. That is one of the fundamental requirements of a postgraduate diploma or masters. To have it in the same category as a masters made no sense in the first place. You still get the "H.Dip allowance". There is a specific allowance for masters degrees and Phds.

Of course it doesn't. However, you are completely missing the point. It was advertised as such by the University and the accompanying fees for the course reflect this status. Go to the UCD graduate fees website and find me a level 8 course in the humanities that comes anywhere close to Euro 6,500.

It will be recognised just the same by the Teaching Council as it was before.

True, but yet again you are missing the point.

I am graduating on saturday from UCD with my PDE. The parchment is in latin, there will be no mention of Level 9 or 8 on it. My transcripts refer to a "graduate diploma". The hysteria about this thing is quite odd. People are blowing their lid over nothing.

Congratulations, but you will be graduating with a PGDE not the pejoratively titled PDE. Again, check the graduate courses in UCD and find me a graduate course (apart from architecture) where the title "Professional Diploma" is used. Is this title on the NFQ? Ans: No. Then why not change it back to the old HDip??

So DKeogh, I ask you. If you knew it was a Level 8 beforehand would you have refused to do the course even though it affords you the exact same recognition as it did before?

Of course not. However, I (and you for that matter) would have queried why a simple name change necessitated a significant increase in fees. UCD have also made it clear to students throughout the last five years that they were studying a level 9 course. If the course title insinuates that it is a level 9 and your lecturers state that it is a level 9, then why wouldn't you believe that it is a level 9.

To sum up: you were ripped off by UCD but got your PGDE, we are being ripped off by UCD and are losing our G!

williamob

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Where did it ever say it was a level 9 degree bar the misleading name which didn't actually mean it was a level 9 either?

So by your rationale, a course titled Masters degree doesn't actually insinuate that it is a level 9 or PhD a level 10?

Universities don't have to specify the NQAI level as there is no legislation in place to require them to do so. However, this will soon become a legislative requirement. See the Qualifications and Quality Assurance (Education and Training) Bill 2011.

The reason that they don't is because of a mutual trust between the Universities and its students that the courses on offer are what they say they are. This is not done through NQAI level specification, but rather by way of the academic title (BA, HDip, PGDE, MA, PhD). If this trust were not in place of course you would check the NQAI level.

The name most definitely made it a level 9 course according to the NFQ and UCD's own academic regulations, a framework which every single other course in UCD adheres to (I hope!).

mr. pfft

Actually UCD did call it a level 9 qualification. They signed off on countless grant forms that it was a level 9 qualification. The H-Dip was changed to a PGDE because UCD and other colleges wanted it to be recognied as a level 9 qualification. NQAI never agreed to this. UCD then went on to call the course a PGDE for 6 YEARS! A Postgraduate Diploma is a level 9 qualification, it says it in black and white on the NQAI webiste.

Mardy Bum

williamob wrote: »

So by your rationale, a course titled Masters degree doesn't actually insinuate that it is a level 9 or PhD a level 10?

Universities don't have to specify the NQAI level as there is no legislation in place to require them to do so. However, this will soon become a legislative requirement. See the Qualifications and Quality Assurance (Education and Training) Bill 2011.

The reason that they don't is because of a mutual trust between the Universities and its students that the courses on offer are what they say they are. This is not done through NQAI level specification, but rather by way of the academic title (BA, HDip, PGDE, MA, PhD). If this trust were not in place of course you would check the NQAI level.

The name most definitely made it a level 9 course according to the NFQ and UCD's own academic regulations, a framework which every single other course in UCD adheres to (I hope!).

I agree with your point and I have pointed it out earlier;

The larger question which needs to be answered is why the degree had been given its title (PGDE) in the first place as it was never a post grad degree as defined by NQAI?

UCD marketing department seems to have had their eye on the money.

What I don't understand is what exactly students of the PGDE expect to gain or lose from the change in level? It effects every one that has done the course from its initiation but it seems to be only the current students who are up in arms. It certainly didn't mean you were going to be paid more than those with the hdip for instance.

Its being brought in to standardise teaching across Europe so does the problem of level status lie with teaching outside Europe?

dillo2k10

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

So...does this mean I have to change my letters to PDE instead of PDGE :S Or is it just applying to those finishing the course from this year on? If not, are they writing out to people to explain this?

No, but you do have to change them from PGDE to PDE.

williamob

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I agree with your point and I have pointed it out earlier;

UCD marketing department seems to have had their eye on the money.

Well if they did then they have significantly overcharged hundreds of students and something needs to be done about it.

What I don't understand is what exactly students of the PGDE expect to gain or lose from the change in level? It effects every one that has done the course from its initiation but it seems to be only the current students who are up in arms. It certainly didn't mean you were going to be paid more than those with the hdip for instance.

It is only the current students who are "up in arms" because we are the ones who realised it once the name change was announced. Seeing as the reaction is pretty much the same across the class, I would find it hard to believe that previous years would have reacted any differently in the circumstances.

You also have to realise that teachers graduating from this course will earn substantially less than their colleagues from previous years because of the public sector pay cuts for new entrants. Therefore, this course name-change is perceived (quite rightly) as an attack on those without recourse to unions or any other defence mechanism at a time when emigration and crappy teaching hours are the prospect for most.

Did you honestly think that we believed this course entitled us to be better paid than previous HDip students when not one person who has graduated from this course over the last six years across all the universities has made any suggestion of the like?

Mardy Bum

williamob wrote: »

It is only the current students who are "up in arms" because we are the ones who realised it once the name change was announced. Seeing as the reaction is pretty much the same across the class, I would find it hard to believe that previous years would have reacted any differently in the circumstances.

You also have to realise that teachers graduating from this course will earn substantially less than their colleagues from previous years because of the public sector pay cuts for new entrants. Therefore, this course name-change is perceived (quite rightly) as an attack on those without recourse to unions or any other defence mechanism at a time when emigration and crappy teaching hours are the prospect for most.

Did you honestly think that we believed this course entitled us to be better paid than previous HDip students when not one person who has graduated from this course over the last six years across all the universities has made any suggestion of the like?

I know all about teachers pay. Im trying to work out what exactly students feel they are entitled to or not anymore as is the case after the implementation of the status.

So is the actual issue is the fact that the course cost 6500k? And that is the only issue am I right in saying?

implausible

My tuppence-worth is that people are reading too much into this clarification of the level of the PDE. It was never equivalent to a Masters, so could not have been regarded as Level 9. At the end of the day, principals will still look for your teaching qualification, its place in the framework is irrelevant to employability or pay.

There is a precedent for the grants issue - FETAC Level 5 (PLC) students are regarded as progressing from Leaving Certificate for grant purposes, even though the Leaving is also Level 5.

It is a very specific qualification with the single purpose of qualifying you to teach. Students only do it for this reason, not for the level it is.

williamob

My tuppence-worth is that people are reading too much into this clarification of the level of the PDE. It was never equivalent to a Masters, so could not have been regarded as Level 9 At the end of the day, principals will still look for your teaching qualification, its place in the framework is irrelevant to employability or pay.

The point isn't whether or not it was ever the equivalent to a Masters, the point is that UCD and all the other NUI colleges advertised it as such through the use of the academic title (which I've spoken about earlier) and that they therefore felt it appropriate to charge level 9 fees for the course.

There is also the matter of re-naming it the pejoratively titled Professional Diploma in Education when there is no corresponding term used on the NFQ. Why UCD and the other NUIs would go to the trouble of causing further confusion by re-naming it this is beyond me although I might guess that because it sounds like the PGDE, the college authorities simply thought we wouldn't notice. Why not re-name it the HDip in Education which is quite obviously a level 8 and has a corresponding term in the NFQ?

It is a very specific qualification with the single purpose of qualifying you to teach. Students only do it for this reason, not for the level it is.

Or qualifying you to become a TD or potentially the Taoiseach! You're right, people do this course to become teachers, not because of the level it is at on the NFQ. However, this does not mean that UCD has the right to manipulate its only teaching course in order to charge higher fees and increase prestige by claiming it is a level 9. That is simply wrong and it is the current batch of PGDE students who have been alerted to this wrongdoing by UCD and the other Universities.

williamob

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I know all about teachers pay. Im trying to work out what exactly students feel they are entitled to or not anymore as is the case after the implementation of the status.

Students feel they are entitled to what was advertised to them and what they paid for. Simple as that.

So is the actual issue is the fact that the course cost 6500k? And that is the only issue am I right in saying?

The cost of the course was not really an issue when it was the PGDE because that title clearly suggested it was a level 9 on the NFQ and the fees increased back in 2005 to reflect this.

Now that UCD want to tell us that it is a level 8 and that the name is being changed to the Professional Diploma in Education, the issue of fees must come into question.

andee

The Higher Diploma in Education / Postgraduate Diploma in Education was never a level 9 qualification. Level 9 higher diplomas leave students with normally just the thesis (or the thesis plus a module on research methods) left to complete in order to obtain a masters, i.e. they are the first half to three quarters of a masters, the thesis (or thesis plus a research methods module) being left to complete in order to obtain a masters. There is no masters that I am aware of where by holders of the h.dip or pgde just have the thesis element (or thesis element plus research methods module) left to fulfill in order to obtain a masters.

Hence the hdip or pgde is and always was a level 8 vocational qualification.

sitstill

williamob wrote: »

The cost of the course was not really an issue when it was the PGDE because that title clearly suggested it was a level 9 on the NFQ and the fees increased back in 2005 to reflect this.

Now that UCD want to tell us that it is a level 8 and that the name is being changed to the Professional Diploma in Education, the issue of fees must come into question.

I did the PGDE at UCD in 2007-08. I think it was the first year that they called it PGDE and I paid about 5800 Euro.

Did they have lower fees before it was called PGDE?

williamob

sitstill wrote: »

I did the PGDE at UCD in 2007-08. I think it was the first year that they called it PGDE and I paid about 5800 Euro.

Did they have lower fees before it was called PGDE?

Yes they did. It was certainly under Euro 5,000 prior to it being called a PGDE. I did a Masters degree in UCD back in 2005/6 and the fees for that course have only risen marginally in the same period.

Of course demand for the PGDE would be greater for than for a Masters in History but fees aren't driven by demand but rather the financial return on taking the course, hence why an MBA costs Euro 25,000.

Either way, now that it is "officially" level 8 course, Euro 6,500 is simply not justifiable.

williamob

andee wrote: »

The Higher Diploma in Education / Postgraduate Diploma in Education was never a level 9 qualification. Level 9 higher diplomas leave students with normally just the thesis (or the thesis plus a module on research methods) left to complete in order to obtain a masters, i.e. they are the first half to three quarters of a masters, the thesis (or thesis plus a research methods module) being left to complete in order to obtain a masters. There is no masters that I am aware of where by holders of the h.dip or pgde just have the thesis element (or thesis element plus research methods module) left to fulfill in order to obtain a masters.

Hence the hdip or pgde is and always was a level 8 vocational qualification.

Well then why did the Registrar of UCD, the other NUI's, Trinity and DCU all change the name to the Postgraduate/Graduate Diploma in Education if not to insinuate that it had changed to a level 9 despite the obvious academic discrepancies?

Mardy Bum

williamob wrote: »

Well then why did the Registrar of UCD, the other NUI's, Trinity and DCU all change the name to the Postgraduate/Graduate Diploma in Education if not to insinuate that it had changed to a level 9 despite the obvious academic discrepancies?

Im guessing one institution went to change it and then the others followed in suit so as not to be outdone or look like a lesser degree because it would harm the number of applicants and in so doing decrease revenue. It was a superficial change really just to make money.

Master prices have been going up every year and the hdip/PGDE/PDE will be the same. Thats how universities try to stay a float.

rainbowtrout

williamob wrote: »

Yes they did. It was certainly under Euro 5,000 prior to it being called a PGDE. I did a Masters degree in UCD back in 2005/6 and the fees for that course have only risen marginally in the same period.

Of course demand for the PGDE would be greater for than for a Masters in History but fees aren't driven by demand but rather the financial return on taking the course, hence why an MBA costs Euro 25,000.

Either way, now that it is "officially" level 8 course, Euro 6,500 is simply not justifiable.

But the majority of Level 8 degrees in UCD are in and around €7400 per year. It's just that it doesn't cost students anything (except the registration fee) unless they are repeating, so for the most part undergrad students are completely unaware of the real cost of their courses. I'd say it's on par with other level 8 courses.

http://www.ucd.ie/registry/adminservices/fees/undergraduate2011.htm

williamob

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Im guessing one institution went to change it and then the others followed in suit so as not to be outdone or look like a lesser degree because it would harm the number of applicants and in so doing decrease revenue. It was a superficial change really just to make money.

Master prices have been going up every year and the hdip/PGDE/PDE will be the same. Thats how universities try to stay a float.

That's exactly what happened. I think UCC initiated the "race". Prices have been going up but not as drastically as for the PGDE which stands at around a 50% increase in the space of 5 years.

The only Masters I can think of which you need to progress in a professional field is the Masters in Accounting therefore the Universities have to be careful not to price people out of doing the course. As for the PGDE, because it is a professional requirement people will pay whatever amount but that does not mean that they should be exploited through higher than average fees.

williamob

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But the majority of Level 8 degrees in UCD are in and around €7400 per year. It's just that it doesn't cost students anything (except the registration fee) unless they are repeating, so for the most part undergrad students are completely unaware of the real cost of their courses. I'd say it's on par with other level 8 courses.

http://www.ucd.ie/registry/adminservices/fees/undergraduate2011.htm

Firstly, the degree courses in the humanities all stand at around the Euro 5,500 level. You cannot compare a teacher training course with an engineering or veterinary medicine course because of the ancillary costs involved with teaching the latter.

Secondly, check the UCD graduate fees website and look at all the level 8 (HDip) courses in the College of Arts and Celtic Studies and the College of Life Sciences and show me how many of those courses are anywhere near Euro 6,500.

http://www.ucd.ie/registry/adminservices/fees/2011/index.html

delta_bravo

williamob wrote: »

Firstly, the degree courses in the humanities all stand at around the Euro 5,500 level. You cannot compare a teacher training course with an engineering or veterinary medicine course because of the ancillary costs involved with teaching the latter.

Secondly, check the UCD graduate fees website and look at all the level 8 (HDip) courses in the College of Arts and Celtic Studies and the College of Life Sciences and show me how many of those courses are anywhere near Euro 6,500.

http://www.ucd.ie/registry/adminservices/fees/2011/index.html

Plenty of ancillary costs associated the with pde also. Someone has to pay those supervisors! There would be at least 50 staff employed in this course.

The last thing it needs is a cut in fees. It will ensure that those who really want to do it, will and those who might just do it to fill a year