question about heating?

Merch

Friend of mine has a problem with their hot water, its in an apartment.
The pump is heating up a lot and they are turning it off because of this.
They got a plumber and he told them it would cost 800 euro to replace the pump . Personally I think that is a total rip off.
He also told them that the pump is tripping itself out as the system is overheating (its immersion heated, in an apartment) even though they are actually turning off the circuit breaker.
His claim that the pump is turning itself off on its own PCB (seems dubious to me), he suggested turning the stat down on the immersion as the water at 65 C is causing the pump to turn off , and changing the temp of the immersion would stop the pump tripping out. I can hazard a guess the PCB might turn off the pump using some current limiting, but due to electrical/mechanical fault (such as pump impeller jammed somehow) but not due to the high temperature of the water it is pumping.

Personally I think the pump is knackered, I replaced seals on my own few years back and happened to look at pumps(although the drain to outside is now dripping away, thats a thing i could ask about here maybe?), anyway, when i looked at pumps I couldnt see anything much over €100 new and that was in B&Q, not a wholesalers, so how plumber is adding that up to 800 euro is anyones guess. Whats the standard rate of labour and does that decrease for an extended job, cant see any more than an hour to change a pump?
Its in an apartment, so the system is, I assume unvented/indirect (sealed/pressurised?) but the circuit in question as I was told is the hot water.
I think there might be a second pump in that hotpress, where everything is, not sure what that is for though.

edit; the rooms are heated by electric wall heaters, so that is totally seperate.

dm1388

Merch wrote: »

Friend of mine has a problem with their hot water, its in an apartment.
The pump is heating up a lot and they are turning it off because of this.
They got a plumber and he told them it would cost 800 euro to replace the pump . Personally I think that is a total rip off.
He also told them that the pump is tripping itself out as the system is overheating (its immersion heated, in an apartment) even though they are actually turning off the circuit breaker.
His claim that the pump is turning itself off on its own PCB (seems dubious to me), he suggested turning the stat down on the immersion as the water at 65 C is causing the pump to turn off , and changing the temp of the immersion would stop the pump tripping out. I can hazard a guess the PCB might turn off the pump using some current limiting, but due to electrical/mechanical fault (such as pump impeller jammed somehow) but not due to the high temperature of the water it is pumping.

Personally I think the pump is knackered, I replaced seals on my own few years back and happened to look at pumps(although the drain to outside is now dripping away, thats a thing i could ask about here maybe?), anyway, when i looked at pumps I couldnt see anything much over €100 new and that was in B&Q, not a wholesalers, so how plumber is adding that up to 800 euro is anyones guess. Whats the standard rate of labour and does that decrease for an extended job, cant see any more than an hour to change a pump?
Its in an apartment, so the system is, I assume unvented/indirect (sealed/pressurised?) but the circuit in question as I was told is the hot water.
I think there might be a second pump in that hotpress, where everything is, not sure what that is for though.

edit; the rooms are heated by electric wall heaters, so that is totally seperate.

Hi
I assume you are talking about the pump, that pumps the hot water to the taps, if that is what you are talking about it shouldn't cost any more than E300

Merch

I believe it is, I was just told this over the phone, I imagine being on one level, the pump is to ensure adequate pressure, to taps, so bath/sink/shower and kitchen.

I think there is another pump in there, but I will see when i go over.

How much less will a pump be from a plumbers merchants such as heat merchants (their prices dont seem to be online?)
So 100 euro for pump and 200 euro for an hour maybe hour and half???

I still dont understand why he would tell her that turning the stat down would help (unless her being a her is relevant? maybe she made it sound like she doesnt have a clue about heating, which she wouldnt)

dm1388

Merch wrote: »

I believe it is, I was just told this over the phone, I imagine being on one level, the pump is to ensure adequate pressure, to taps, so bath/sink/shower and kitchen.

I think there is another pump in there, but I will see when i go over.

How much less will a pump be from a plumbers merchants such as heat merchants (their prices dont seem to be online?)
So 100 euro for pump and 200 euro for an hour maybe hour and half???

I still dont understand why he would tell her that turning the stat down would help (unless her being a her is relevant? maybe she made it sound like she doesnt have a clue about heating, which she wouldnt)

the pump for that job is around the 200 mark, the last time i installed one i think the whole job cost around 270 and i think he was chancing his arm about the stat

Merch

dm1388 wrote: »

the pump for that job is around the 200 mark, the last time i installed one i think the whole job cost around 270

ok, thanks, what kind of pump is it? I'd have thought it must be reasonably standard?
I haven't looked at it/seen it to see what make it is.
I assumed it'd be the same as a heating system pump like a grunfoss or something. I assume its only on when the hot water is demanded by someone opening a tap? so there is no real requirement to have a variable speed pump which I imagine is pricier (something which I'd consider for my own heating system in a semi-d)
Friend of mine has a problem with their hot water, its in an apartment.
The pump is heating up a lot and they are turning it off because of this.
They got a plumber and he told them it would cost 800 euro to replace the pump . Personally I think that is a total rip off.
He also told them that the pump is tripping itself out as the system is overheating (its immersion heated, in an apartment) even though they are actually turning off the circuit breaker.
His claim that the pump is turning itself off on its own PCB (seems dubious to me), he suggested turning the stat down on the immersion as the water at 65 C is causing the pump to turn off , and changing the temp of the immersion would stop the pump tripping out. I can hazard a guess the PCB might turn off the pump using some current limiting, but due to electrical/mechanical fault (such as pump impeller jammed somehow) but not due to the high temperature of the water it is pumping.


I think it would be something like this?? except there is no coil going into it (as there is no gas boiler, all electric) so the pump would be somewhere on a tee off from the tank direct?

image didnt work, will try that again

dm1388

Merch wrote: »

ok, thanks, what kind of pump is it? I'd have thought it must be reasonably standard?
I haven't looked at it/seen it to see what make it is.
I assumed it'd be the same as a heating system pump like a grunfoss or something. I assume its only on when the hot water is demanded by someone opening a tap? so there is no real requirement to have a variable speed pump which I imagine is pricier (something which I'd consider for my own heating system in a semi-d)
Friend of mine has a problem with their hot water, its in an apartment.
The pump is heating up a lot and they are turning it off because of this.
They got a plumber and he told them it would cost 800 euro to replace the pump . Personally I think that is a total rip off.
He also told them that the pump is tripping itself out as the system is overheating (its immersion heated, in an apartment) even though they are actually turning off the circuit breaker.
His claim that the pump is turning itself off on its own PCB (seems dubious to me), he suggested turning the stat down on the immersion as the water at 65 C is causing the pump to turn off , and changing the temp of the immersion would stop the pump tripping out. I can hazard a guess the PCB might turn off the pump using some current limiting, but due to electrical/mechanical fault (such as pump impeller jammed somehow) but not due to the high temperature of the water it is pumping.


I think it would be something like this?? except there is no coil going into it (as there is no gas boiler, all electric) so the pump would be somewhere on a tee off from the tank direct?

image didnt work, will try that again

no its different type of pump, it is either a single or twin impellor pump. The pump brand I normally use is Stuart Turner which can be got in a good plumbing providers. heatmerchants etc

sullzz

The pump is not the same asa central heating pump if its on the plumbing system , the quote he gave you is probably for a negative head pump as its an apartment and prob has a combi cylinder fitted , water being too hot can mess up pumps , if the water is too hot. check if the stay is working , if you are turning down the stat make sure you dont turn it down below 60c for legionella risks , if the quote was for a negative head pump they do cost an arm and a leg

Merch

dm1388 wrote: »

no its different type of pump, it is either a single or twin impellor pump. The pump brand I normally use is Stuart Turner which can be got in a good plumbing providers. heatmerchants etc

Ok, i will look into it, Im not really planning to do it myself, just want the info as she was quoted so (in my opinion ridiculously) high.
I might tell her or even look myself to see what type (brand/name) pump it is and check it out.

Just checked those single/twin impeller pump, dont recal one like that in her hot press, (then again i wasn't going through her drawers ) was sure it looked like an ordinary pump and connected into the circuit attached to the hot water draw off, which i assume is at the top of the tank somewhere. She told me they were turning it off via a circuit breaker??

anyway
I better have a look into it.
Funny, was gonna post to get an idea about my own heating system problems and i end up doing this

Merch

sullzz wrote: »

The pump is not the same asa central heating pump if its on the plumbing system , the quote he gave you is probably for a negative head pump as its an apartment and prob has a combi cylinder fitted , water being too hot can mess up pumps , if the water is too hot. check if the stay is working , if you are turning down the stat make sure you dont turn it down below 60c for legionella risks , if the quote was for a negative head pump they do cost an arm and a leg

the stat is in the immersion cap? not on the pump?

I was going to ask about negative/positive head pumps regarding changing my own heating system pump.
I guessed negative head pumps might be to draw water in from below the height of the pump and positive head pumps give a figure they can pump it up to? (it always seems to be in metres) if thats correct and the apartment is all on the same level, why would it need to draw anything in? the tank above it seems to fill seperately/independantly, unless that pump is pushing water hot water out and drawing replacement water into the tank. ( iassumed the tank was being filled by mains pressure to the whole apartment complex?)
If you can tell me what the neg/pos head means that also answers my own question regarding replacing my system pump too
i do recal the cylinder looked different (appears to have a tank over it) so I think that is a combi cylinder

sullzz

Merch wrote: »

the stat is in the immersion cap? not on the pump?

I was going to ask about negative/positive head pumps regarding changing my own heating system pump.
I guessed negative head pumps might be to draw water in from below the height of the pump and positive head pumps give a figure they can pump it up to? (it always seems to be in metres) if thats correct and the apartment is all on the same level, why would it need to draw anything in? the tank above it seems to fill seperately/independantly, unless that pump is pushing water hot water out and drawing replacement water into the tank. ( iassumed the tank was being filled by mains pressure to the whole apartment complex?)
If you can tell me what the neg/pos head means that also answers my own question regarding replacing my system pump too
i do recal the cylinder looked different (appears to have a tank over it) so I think that is a combi cylinder

negative head pump is required where the draw off ( shower head / tap) is level or higher than the cold water storage tank , nothing to do with your heating pump

Merch

sullzz wrote: »

negative head pump is required where the draw off ( shower head / tap) is level or higher than the cold water storage tank , nothing to do with your heating pump

I see, i always wondered what that meant, hmm Im not that sure the shower head is much above if above the height of the storage tank on top of the cylinder, the taps for everything else certainly aren't. I wonder does she need a neg head pump at all, I'll look and see what the current pump is.

She has gone through about 5 plumbers, they have either somehow repaired the issue, then charged her only for a fault to reappear in a matter of months or less, all along she has said the pump is making noise (not certain if she thinks the noise is getting worse because it is on her mind or because it is actually getting worse). Some have not returned to look into the issue, others have quoted her, what she considers too much, when i heard I agreed. She has effectively called on me to help her sort this out one way or the other.

Where is a good place to get a plumber with qualifications (doing apartment stuff which is different in my mind to 3 bed semi-d)

sullzz

If it is an apartment and has no attic and has a combi cylinder you need a negative head pump

JohnnieK

If it's an apartment (like most) the distribution pipes are travelling up in the hotpress along the underside of the slab roof of the apartment and dropping down to the fixtures this is why it's a negative head pump. Depending on what Bar it is they cost a fortune to buy, also the price might also reflect on how easy it is to replace. Some are installed well and easy to swap over and some are a complete night mare. A 2 bar stuart turner negative head pump would cost around €500 odd so imagine how much a 3 or 4 bar one would cost.

Merch

JohnnieK wrote: »

If it's an apartment (like most) the distribution pipes are travelling up in the hotpress along the underside of the slab roof of the apartment and dropping down to the fixtures this is why it's a negative head pump. Depending on what Bar it is they cost a fortune to buy, also the price might also reflect on how easy it is to replace. Some are installed well and easy to swap over and some are a complete night mare. A 2 bar stuart turner negative head pump would cost around €500 odd so imagine how much a 3 or 4 bar one would cost.

sullzz wrote: »

If it is an apartment and has no attic and has a combi cylinder you need a negative head pump

Ok, I will check and see first what it is form any tag/plate that is on the pump. I did not realise a pump would/could cost €500.

it has no attic, so it must be then.

Merch

Further information to my post, if anyone has some experience in this, I'm looking to advise my friend, want to know how much this is going to cost them.

I had a look at the system, there is a pump but i cant see it written anywhere that it is a negative head pump (I think positive head), but there is another device plumbed into the cold line of the outlet of the pump (Im reasonably sure thats how its plumbed, but was tired when I looked at it) anyway it is called a "controlmatic". Does this device assist in situations of low or negative head such as the case above if a positive head pump is fitted?(an apartment with combi tank)

Looking at it I hazarded a guess that it controls the pump (being called a controlmatic and all) I assumed that it detects a pressure drop when a tap is opened it turns on the pump, there is a thin blue tube attached into the hot water so I assume this is how it detects a pressure drop in the hot circuit.
The problem is the pump stays on all the time unless it is switched off from a switch in the hotpress.

I'd like to get an idea if it is possible dirt got into the controlmatic device and that it just needs to be cleaned (flushed out) or if that is not usually worth it or a long lasting solution, then how much are they? it doesn't look like it would take long to install, so how much might it cost to do? I'm aware the system would have to be at least partially drained (there are some valves on the cold circuit but not on the hot) then refilled, bled and run.

ideas on the costs involved?

DGOBS

Sorry to be a bit off about this, but you really seem to have waded out of your depth with this one, and are struggling to give someone else advice

Every post is punctuated by 'I'm reasonably sure' 'I think' 'I assumed' 'I hazarded a guess'. Yet you firmly have questioned a plumbers reputation on this!

A negative pump is expensive, and you've been advised already that in an apartment in all likelyhood it's going to be a negative head pump (my 3bar stuart turner cost me nearly 900euro 7 years ago!)

You've also been advised some of these are a nightmare to replace if poorly installed (and you cant even get in to get a good look at the data badge)

IMHO I think you should go along with your friends plumber or even get another 1/2 quotes on replacement to verify the issue and cost

Merch

DGOBS wrote: »

Sorry to be a bit off about this, but you really seem to have waded out of your depth with this one, and are struggling to give someone else advice

Every post is punctuated by 'I'm reasonably sure' 'I think' 'I assumed' 'I hazarded a guess'. Yet you firmly have questioned a plumbers reputation on this!

A negative pump is expensive, and you've been advised already that in an apartment in all likelyhood it's going to be a negative head pump (my 3bar stuart turner cost me nearly 900euro 7 years ago!)

You've also been advised some of these are a nightmare to replace if poorly installed (and you cant even get in to get a good look at the data badge)

IMHO I think you should go along with your friends plumber or even get another 1/2 quotes on replacement to verify the issue and cost

Im looking for constructive advice, I dont accept your criticism of being out of my depth, I have worked on very similar stuff in repair and maintenance, as I have said though, I am not a plumber, not familiar with certain aspects of domestic installations and I am seeking advice.If I had the time and it was mine I would drain the system, take off the controlmatic, disassemble it, clean it and circuit check any switches inside, put it back bleed the system and see if it works, failing that being successful I would replace it.

I havent come across a "controlmatic" but I guessed on seeing it, what it does and read up online that it actually does what I guessed at?? (thats not a wild guess, its from my own experience) it seems I was correct, but I wanted confirmation about that and some other things,such as does it help a pos head pump (like an air switch?). Either way the pressure available is fine, its just that the pump stays on.

So you haven't really answered what i was asking.

NO I am not questioning the reputation of one plumber, its actually about the reputation of 3 "plumbers" that have turned up, charged money (substantially)and failed to solve the problem, dont see why they should make that 4. From what I believe some were contacted back to return to repair the fault, agreed to but didnt bother to return or contact my friend and then failed to take her calls.

I did look at the plate on the pump, and nowhere on it it does it say negative head! it says nothing specifically about neg or pos head. It has the voltage, amps,rpm, Hz, that its single phase, the max head (27M)

The problem has thus far been incompetent plumbers, Im looking for some advice, you are obviously offended that (it seems to me you are a plumber) you think I am bringing down your trade? when in fact it has been the three people that turned up already who have done that.

I said I am reasonably sure the controlmatic device is on the cold flow outlet, it is on the cold side not the hot, I just didnt draw a diagram, I was tired when I looked, how it is located isnt important, the installation worked fine for years, basically I am certain it is a straight swap of that component and I wanted to know, given that it is the bank holiday weekend and I cant find a price.
A. how much a controlmatic is about?
B. What is the rate of a plumber ( agood one, not a rip off like the last people, and also is it possible to find out, how to complain about work done that has failed to last? small claims???
I'm quite sure I previously posted, this isn't mine, Im helping someone out that has been messed about, I dont have the time to do it. I am not struggling to give them advice, they have struggled to find a competent person to do the job.

So I ask anyone again, any idea of the costs involved?/ answer to A and B above?

I will look out for your reply, and please correct me if I am wrong about the "controlmatic device"

DGOBS

Sorry, I do accept someone being out of their dept when they 'assume' the pump should not be more than €100 cos that's what a circulating pump in B&Q (which this isn't one) cost.

I am not offended at all, the constructive advice I am giving you is that you should price a like for like pump and decide on the course of action for you. I think most professionals who give up their time and considered advice here are prepared to HELP and give APPROPRIATE advice, not just hand over their trade on a plate, after all they did spend a minimum of 4 years training (which never really ends) this includes calling when they believe you need to get a professional in, and yes there is cowboys out there a we all know

If doing the repair as you suggested, or any other plumbing works in another's house you would really need to make sure your public liability insurance covers you for such as a non plumber

As for small claims, duty of care would be where you start with them, but you did call into question the reputation of the plumber who priced the replacement, that from my reading of the thread may well be born out as a reasonable price given the expense of the new pump and time involved

Merch

@ DGOBS
and your response to the above is what?

I think she is justifiably annoyed at the poor service she received, your post amounts to leave it to the professionals, the people she already employed 3 times??
If I sound annoyed at you myself, I am, you didnt bother to answer any of what I asked but you felt the need to post criticism.
I'm not even certain you read my posts, because i have already said I am looking for a plumber to do this, but instead of leaving her off without any knowledge to deal with someone that talks techno babble but fails to follow through with the goods, she has asked me to step in (who she knows has a technical background), find out whats wrong, get a plumber, make sure she isn't ripped off again and ensure that there is a written receipt with a stated warranty.

Merch

DGOBS wrote: »

Sorry, I do accept someone being out of their dept when they 'assume' the pump should not be more than €100 cos that's what a circulating pump in B&Q (which this isn't one) cost.

I am not offended at all, the constructive advice I am giving you is that you should price a like for like pump and decide on the course of action for you. I think most professionals who give up their time and considered advice here are prepared to HELP and give APPROPRIATE advice, not just hand over their trade on a plate, after all they did spend a minimum of 4 years training (which never really ends) this includes calling when they believe you need to get a professional in, and yes there is cowboys out there a we all know

If doing the repair as you suggested, or any other plumbing works in another's house you would really need to make sure your public liability insurance covers you for such as a non plumber

As for small claims, duty of care would be where you start with them, but you did call into question the reputation of the plumber who priced the replacement, that from my reading of the thread may well be born out as a reasonable price given the expense of the new pump and time involved

Ok, A how much is a controlmatic (approx)? and how much per hour should she expect to pay a plumber? That is what I am asking.
As for the guy who priced her 750 odd to replace the pump, it seems to supply adequate pressure, the pump does not seem to be the issue (I asked to confirm does the controlmatic do the switching on/off, but got no answer in your reply? as far as I can see, this device should switch the pump on and but it does not do that anymore) I came back here to follow up to seek advice, not a scolding. The guy that priced her 700-50 odd also failed to answer his phone, thats poor customer service. I began to think he overpriced her the job as he didnt want to do it?? dont really know as he doesnt have the courtesy to answer his phone?

Merch

DGOBS wrote: »

Sorry, I do accept someone being out of their dept when they 'assume' the pump should not be more than €100 cos that's what a circulating pump in B&Q (which this isn't one) cost.

I am not offended at all, the constructive advice I am giving you is that you should price a like for like pump and decide on the course of action for you. I think most professionals who give up their time and considered advice here are prepared to HELP and give APPROPRIATE advice, not just hand over their trade on a plate, after all they did spend a minimum of 4 years training (which never really ends) this includes calling when they believe you need to get a professional in, and yes there is cowboys out there a we all know

If doing the repair as you suggested, or any other plumbing works in another's house you would really need to make sure your public liability insurance covers you for such as a non plumber

As for small claims, duty of care would be where you start with them, but you did call into question the reputation of the plumber who priced the replacement, that from my reading of the thread may well be born out as a reasonable price given the expense of the new pump and time involved

2 things,
1.Someone is not out of their depth if they are unaware of the price of components, I have already stated I am not a plumber. I did 4 years in my own trade, I never dealt with cost of components (although I may have been made aware every now and again for specific components).
I have worked with repair and maintenance of hydraulic equipment, chemical lines, all sorts (among other elements of maintenance) same for electrical stuff, but Im not an electrician. I have not dealt with design dealing with pumping capacity/ability. Although I have done some calculation stuff after going back to college to do with flow/heat transfer/and even pump sizing, (its not something I am completely familiar with) but I do refer back to my trade experience to further my knowledge.
2. I have not suggested I am doing the repair, If anything I keep saying I have no time to do it, one reason being something you suggested also (Liability, its why I service my own car but wont do others) its not the only reason I have NO intention of doing the actual work but it is something I have considered, also I do not want to be taken for granted as some kind of go-for to get jobs done people are too tight or are unwilling to pay for (in this case the person has paid 3 times to fix the issue, so its not really the case here). I certainly am not about to take something on for a person that is not a family member, where the impact on others (its an apartment complex) has the possibility to exist. Its a basic plumbing system, so I feel that possibility is small, but still the chance exists, I have no insurance to cover it if something does happen.
I know a lot of people dont think about that, in their efforts to save a few quid.
I merely wish to go in forearmed with adequete knowledge, to get the job dealt with promptly/efficiently/reasonably cost effective (that rewards the person engaged to carry out the job, and is cost effective for the person wanting the job done)

Anyway, I am going to apologise generally here, I got a bit annoyed earlier as I am frustrated with getting a straight answer I feel, in some ways here (I wanted clarification the "controlmatic" does what I think) and through ringing (trying) to ring the people that did the repairs already.
I have gotten some v good advice here, I understand how a person doesnt want to hand their trade on a plate after putting years of effort in, some people want to hand off all responsibility to a plumber/electrician/whatever the service/skill required, if the result is the job is done and the end user doesnt have to think about it, great!, if the result is the end user keeps having problems due to failed repairs then I dont find it suprising they want to engage more. In this case, I am doing the donkey work for someone that doesnt have a clue, it is also frustrating helping her as trying to get info about the sequence of events is like pulling teeth.

Merch

Well, been busy all day, was hoping with all the advice the questions I asked may have been answered.Then again it is a duplicate of the experience in attempting to contact the plumbers so far (according to the person in question, in case someone suggests it is my mannner).
prob get a better response trying to convene with the dead, right time of year and all, failing that DIY.

heinbloed

Is the problem of the friend solved by now, Merch?

Merch

No, I went to the apartment and had a look, ran taps, and pump is running, non stop, getting hot, there is a unit/device called a controlmatic, read up about it online, seems it is a pressure device that detects low pressure and turns the pump on/off according to demand.

I wanted to get an idea how much these cost, but by now will be able to ring up somewhere tomorrow, I wanted to confirm what I thought about it being the problem from someone here. what I dont understand is how if the pump which belts out water from the taps was recommended to be replaced and not the controlmatic? makes me think people she got in were ripping her off as she just left them to it, they got paid, disappeared, never to be heard of again.

heinbloed

....there is a unit/device called a controlmatic, read up about it online, seems it is a pressure device that detects low pressure and turns the pump on/off according to demand.

Mmh, these devices are called pressure switches. The " controlmatic" seems to be a brand name, a 'trade's latin'.

The pressure switch - or pressure sensor - is installed in-line. As you have found out already this device gives a signal to the pump.
It costs around € 25.- for the bog standard type purchased in the plumbing shop.

These devices can be set manually (adjusted)to give the wanted results. So either the present one is deranged and needs resetting or it is defect.
If the pump is running continously the delta is to little, the set difference between 'on' and 'off'. Or the device is defect - or simply unsuitable.

Merch

25 quid !
If one can be picked up for that, It seems just as easy to not take the chance and replace with a new one to me.
Any ideas what the rates (range from/to) that is reasonable to pay for a plumber?
Thinking of ringing through the goldenpages, the person in question doesnt want to do this as she thinks if a woman is on the line they think ka ching!

What kind of warranty is normal to expect for issues if they should develop?
How do you ascertain if a person has public liability cover? ie if they say they do, how do you confirm it?

edit: there is a flush button of sorts to reset, this has no effect, there are three LED's, the fault one is not on.

heinbloed

Any ideas what the rates (range from/to) that is reasonable to pay for a plumber?

It won't cost more than half an hour to install and to connect.

What kind of warranty is normal to expect for issues if they should develop?

2 years in Europe.

How do you ascertain if a person has public liability cover?

I don't know, I do all my standard plumbing issues myself. Being fed up with incompetent persons.

About:

edit: there is a flush button of sorts to reset, this has no effect, there are three LED's, the fault one is not on.

I haven't seen an LED device, the simple pressure switch has no LEDs except one showing power "on" or "off".
Next to the pressure switch there should be a barometer, a device showing the actual pressure (around €5.-).
So if the pressure drops below the set minimum (read the barometer!) the light turns on and the pump pumps.
Until the desired pressure has been reached. Then the light turns off and the pump stops pumping.

It looks to me - without having seen the installation - that some sort of modern control had been installed without understanding the system.

Have you seen the manual?

Could you link it here?

It is up to the installer of an electric device to hand out a/the user manual and to instruct the consumer how to handle the system.
A plain EU consumer right.

Merch

The setup was there when she bought the apartment (years ago) I'm not sure if she bought it new, but I dont think so. So no manuals

The device i am talking about looks very similar to this (of the same make?) It is aquamarine in colour, from the material below, seems to suggest it also contains a pump??

http://www.ksb.com/ksb/web/FI/fi/products/pumps/21__Submersible__Borehole__Pumps__and__Automatic__Control__Units/files/Controlmatic,property%3Dfile.pdf

except it has two wires coming out of it (one in and one out) and no integrated socket.

heinbloed

According to the manual linked the temperature of the water should not exceed 60 degrees Celsius. You wrote:

....at 65 C is causing the pump to turn off ...

In your first post you wrote that there is a permanent dripping

... the drain to outside is now dripping away,...

So we have two things which cause a permanent strain on the equipment: to much heat and permanent demand.

The designed installation is faulty. It should not have been designed this way.

As long as the pump is working (pumping!) it isn't faulty. So there is no need to replace it.

It is the installation which must be changed, the pump incl. the control device must be connected to the cold supply. Pressurising the water before it is heated.
See "Installation positions" in the linked manual, the cold water is being pressurised before it is send to the house.

Personally I would install an expansion barrel as well. This would take much strain out of the system, small leaks, dripping taps and the single cup drawn, a single toilet flushing won't cause the pump to kick in every second. A 5-20 liter tolerance meassure should be installed by chosing the correct size for the expansion barrel.

Without expansion barrel the only physical pressure limits would be set by the pipe work itself, usually to little for a standard house hold installation.

Only very large and well calculated water systems can work without expansion barrel.
The small ones would show symptoms soon.

What presure readings does the barometer show, from to .... ?

€ 800.- for a new installation seems to be far out of reality. Esp. since the old pump is still working, water pipes and electric cables are installed.
In an half an hour the job would be done.

Merch

heinbloed wrote: »

According to the manual linked the temperature of the water should not exceed 60 degrees Celsius. You wrote:
...at 65 C is causing the pump to turn off ... In your first post you wrote that there is a permanent dripping

In your first post you wrote that there is a permanent dripping

Quote:
... the drain to outside is now dripping away,...


So we have two things which cause a permanent strain on the equipment: to much heat and permanent demand.

The designed installation is faulty. It should not have been designed this way.

As long as the pump is working (pumping!) it isn't faulty. So there is no need to replace it.

It is the installation which must be changed, the pump incl. the control device must be connected to the cold supply. Pressurising the water before it is heated.
See "Installation positions" in the linked manual, the cold water is being pressurised before it is send to the house.

Personally I would install an expansion barrel as well. This would take much strain out of the system, small leaks, dripping taps and the single cup drawn, a single toilet flushing won't cause the pump to kick in every second. A 5-20 liter tolerance meassure should be installed by chosing the correct size for the expansion barrel.

Without expansion barrel the only physical pressure limits would be set by the pipe work itself, usually to little for a standard house hold installation.

Only very large and well calculated water systems can work without expansion barrel.
The small ones would show symptoms soon.

What presure readings does the barometer show, from to .... ?

€ 800.- for a new installation seems to be far out of reality. Esp. since the old pump is still working, water pipes and electric cables are installed.
In an half an hour the job would be done.

I put the quotes in, in red as they wouldnt come up when i replied, it was actually one of the plumbers that said something about the stats being at 65 C, Im not sure how he could know that without taking the covers off (he was there, before I came on the scene/was aware of all this), thats all well and good of him, but the thing is I took the covers off myself to check what they were set at and they were at 65, not sure how he knew they were at 65 unless he saw them, which means he just left them at 65?? I turned them down to 60 myself.

The stuff about dripping away, thats me explaining about my own heating system, it has been dripping away since (only noticed after) getting the service done months ago, I shouldnt have put that in the thread it only stands to confuse what i was trying to say.

The controlmatic device in the link is as close to as i can find online to what is in the apartment hotpress,it looks almost identical, Id say its the same but cant be sure as there is no info on the one in the apartment, I cant get my head around the back of it, so there may be a plate there and there were no small mirrors to try (i even asked for a makeup mirror but none available?) I went about parts today but they told me they never came across the controlmatic item and suggested the stuff may all have come from the UK in bulk when the apartment block was built, I contacted a plumber and he is starting to look into the item/part needed, so will look out for a call from him tomorrow.
I appreciate the reply, mostly I wanted to be up to speed when dealing with someone as i dont have the time to look at this for her. If/when the plumber goes around I will meet him there myself and mention about the pump being on the output side?
If it was my own, I would have no problem having a go at fixing up small stuff if I had the time.
Also the pressure gauge doesnt show a change in the needle position from what I can see, but it is difficult to read where it is pointing as it is close up to the tank or a pipe, was tired cant recal which, but I had to look at it more or less from the side, the needle doesnt move anyway, whether the pump is on or off (pump turned off from switch in hotpress).
I'll see what this guy says tomorrow anyway.