Selling my own homemade beer in my pub

The Minstrel

Any publicans out there with any experience of brewing and selling their own beer? I was thinking of dabbling in this in my pub. Nothing too big, just the odd keg here and there. A seasonal thing. Maybe someone could share a past experience. Thanks

BeerNut

You need a brewers' licence to do this, the same as any commercial brewery. Your local Revenue office are the people to talk to about it.

It would be worth talking to Peter Curtin at the Roadside Tavern/Burren Brewery in Lisdoonvarna or Adrienne Heslin at Brick's Pub/West Kerry Brewery in Ballyferriter as this is basically what they've done. I think they're the only pubs in Ireland that have added breweries. (I'm not counting The Oslo/Bay Brewery or Messrs Maguire as they were set up as brewpubs from the beginning.)

Great idea, though. Best of luck with it!

johnnyk66

Great idea, would love to see more of this around the country.:)
Hope it goes well for you.

slayerking

More of this sort of thing... :-)

Good look with it.

The Minstrel

BeerNut wrote: »

You need a brewers' licence to do this, the same as any commercial brewery. Your local Revenue office are the people to talk to about it.

It would be worth talking to Peter Curtin at the Roadside Tavern/Burren Brewery in Lisdoonvarna or Adrienne Heslin at Brick's Pub/West Kerry Brewery in Ballyferriter as this is basically what they've done. I think they're the only pubs in Ireland that have added breweries. (I'm not counting The Oslo/Bay Brewery or Messrs Maguire as they were set up as brewpubs from the beginning.)

Great idea, though. Best of luck with it!

I've had an interest in brewing for quite a while, but more in a messing around sort of way. Wouldn't have confidence in my produce to actually charge people for it as yet.

I must say though I would have thought there are plenty of spots doing this. I don't mean on the mico-brewery level like Messrs Maguire but just the occasional keg once or twice a year for example. I'll give this guy a call. Thanks for the advice.

BeerNut

The Minstrel wrote: »

I must say though I would have thought there are plenty of spots doing this.

If only. I imagine it's a lot easier to do from the point of view of a pub than a stand-alone brewery: you presumably already have a secure premises, and you might not even need a bond if you're paying the duty on the beer up front rather than waiting to sell it to someone else.

I guess the big issue will be who will buy it. Put your own stout on tap next to Guinness and it'll gather dust. But do something different, like seasonal specials: spiced winter ales and so on, and it could be a real winner.

The Minstrel wrote: »

just the occasional keg once or twice a year for example.

I suspect that it's not economical to set up a fully specced commercial brewery -- licensed by Revenue and certified by the HSE -- and only use it a couple of times a year. But I could be completely wrong on that.

rubadub

Can he give it out free with no need to inform anybody? I have heard of barbers giving out "free beer" with haircuts while you wait, and presume they have no licence or whatever.

I thought I had heard of being able to give homebrew free, but cannot pay for it in anyway, I think where I read it included the likes of raffles. I would have thought the barbers might need something. Those guys doing the homebrew courses gave out "free beer" at the end of it too, after paying for the course.

It could be given out free if you buy a burger/sandwich or beers, or just free to regulars as a bit of a gimmick, like christmas pints, or for a match to get punters in. If its only 2 kegs a year the time & effort of admin might not be worth charging.

BeerNut

rubadub wrote: »

Can he give it out free with no need to inform anybody?

Grey area. By the strict letter of the law, only beer for the personal domestic use of the brewer is exempt from excise duty. In practice, if money doesn't change hands Revenue aren't pushed. However, associate the free beer with a commercial venture, particularly a pub, and you could be in the doo-doo fairly quick.

rubadub wrote: »

It could be given out free if you buy a burger/sandwich or beers

Definitely not. Person pays money, person gets unexcised beer, Revenue may come calling. They probably have a special disappointed look for the people who try the "But the money was for the burger" excuse.

rubadub

BeerNut wrote: »

Definitely not. Person pays money, person gets unexcised beer, Revenue may come calling.

This is what I would have thought, just wondered how those barbers & homebrew lessons were getting away with it.

It would obviously open up loopholes, "buy an apple for €10 and get 3 free pints". I heard in the 80's DIY shops did this to overcome sunday opening hours (may have been in the UK), "free drill with your £50 apple".

I also think I read of some "members clubs" thinking of opening following the smoking ban, i.e. lads charging entry to their house and letting people drink, or accepting "donations" for each pint.

BeerNut

rubadub wrote: »

just wondered how those barbers & homebrew lessons were getting away with it.

Quite adequately, it would seem

rubadub wrote: »

lads charging entry to their house and letting people drink, or accepting "donations" for each pint.

Well you'll have seen how well that works in the news recently. A €50 fine for keeping alcohol for sale. Not so much of a deterrent for a farmer, but anyone with a pub licence to renew could do without court appearances for that sort of thing.

noby

As TBN said, there is no half measures here - as far as revenue are concerned it's pretty black and white; you're either a brewery or you're not. So even for a couple of kegs a year you'll still have to formally set up as a brewery. As suggested you should talk to the few pubs that have gone down this route for their experience.

An option may be to approach an existing brewery to have your beer contract brewed, thus bypassing all the red tape.

Either way, best of luck with it.

n97 mini

You can't sell your homebrew, but you can give it away for free to your friends.

Interpret that as you wish.

BeerNut

n97 mini wrote: »

You can't sell your homebrew, but you can give it away for free to your friends.

Interpret that as you wish.

It's not that clear.

The thing to interpret is Section 51(3) of the 1989 Finance Act:

The duty of excise on beer imposed by paragraph 7 (1) of the Order of 1975 shall not be charged or levied on beer brewed by a private brewer, provided that the said beer is brewed by the said brewer solely for his own domestic use.

What is "own domestic use"? Just drinking, or giving away to friends?
In fact, what is "domestic": solely in the place of residence?

It's the sort of thing that no-one's going to bat an eyelid about when it's just ordinary home brewing. But once there's a business involved, especially a licensed one, it may be a good idea to get some proper legal advice.

Playing fast and loose with the law here could end up costing the OP his licence to serve any alcohol at all.

n97 mini

BeerNut wrote: »

It's not that clear.

That's my point.

"Domestic" implies for use in the home.

What about a home brewer bringing "his" beer to a licensed premises for consumption thereon?

BeerNut

n97 mini wrote: »

That's my point.

"Domestic" implies for use in the home.

What about a home brewer bringing "his" beer to a licensed premises for consumption thereon?

By the strict letter of the law, that certainly looks illegal. When the law is breached, it's the brewer who gets punished. If the brewer is a punter in the pub, then it's a slap on the wrist. If the brewer is a licensed publican, however, that seems likely to be treated more seriously.

Taking a risk on legal ambiguity is fine for people whose livelihood doesn't depend on standing in front of a judge every September awaiting a decision on whether they're fit to keep a pub for the next twelve months.

n97 mini

BeerNut wrote: »

If the brewer is a punter in the pub, then it's a slap on the wrist. If the brewer is a licensed publican, however, that seems likely to be treated more seriously.

Have you any examples of this? I'm not aware of any precedents in this country.

BeerNut

n97 mini wrote: »

Have you any examples of this? I'm not aware of any precedents in this country.

There aren't many publicans who know or care much about beer or brewing. So no, I don't know of any test cases. Are you suggesting the OP might like to be the first? He might appreciate a donation to his legal fees to fight the case, if it comes up

n97 mini

BeerNut wrote: »

There aren't many publicans who know or care much about beer or brewing. So no, I don't know of any test cases. Are you suggesting the OP might like to be the first? He might appreciate a donation to his legal fees to fight the case, if it comes up

Rather than speculation I would advise the OP to get some proper advice.

However, if like you I was to speculate, in the absence of any precedents I would probably go the other way.

The Minstrel

Thanks for all the replies here. I hadn't really taken the time to reflect on this in a serious way, but having spoken to a few people in the industry it is clear that this is a political issue.

There is no chance of getting away with this through any of these so-called loopholes.