Long running intervals

kingQuez

When running and building strength for marathon distance runs, what sort of intervals do people typically use? Last year I was doing 8-10x3mins at various paces (10k and half marathon) for speed, but a suggestion I've come across was talking about replacing some long runs with long intervals to improve run strength - eventually building up to doing about 20 reps of 800m. Anyone tried this sort of thing, or is it unheard of, or more appropriate for other distances?

Gringo78

kingQuez wrote: »

When running and building strength for marathon distance runs, what sort of intervals do people typically use? Last year I was doing 8-10x3mins at various paces (10k and half marathon) for speed, but a suggestion I've come across was talking about replacing some long runs with long intervals to improve run strength - eventually building up to doing about 20 reps of 800m. Anyone tried this sort of thing, or is it unheard of, or more appropriate for other distances?

I think Emil Zatopek used to do 50-100 x 400m reps at 10m to HM pace.

Clearlier

kingQuez wrote: »

When running and building strength for marathon distance runs, what sort of intervals do people typically use? Last year I was doing 8-10x3mins at various paces (10k and half marathon) for speed, but a suggestion I've come across was talking about replacing some long runs with long intervals to improve run strength - eventually building up to doing about 20 reps of 800m. Anyone tried this sort of thing, or is it unheard of, or more appropriate for other distances?

Hi KingQuez,

I don't think that many people would consider replacing long runs with intervals. They serve completely different purposes. What you could do (and what I believe Zatopek actually did) is run a fartlek so that each of those 800m reps is interspersed with 800m of easy/steady running. That way you get just short of 20 miles in. I still don't think that I'd recommend it. Daniels has some high quality sessions for long runs but you'd need to be at a pretty high level to do the sessions. Canova also has some pretty tasty sessions for long runs which I can dig up if you are looking at the sub-elite level.

TFBubendorfer

kingQuez wrote: »

a suggestion I've come across was talking about replacing some long runs with long intervals to improve run strength - eventually building up to doing about 20 reps of 800m. Anyone tried this sort of thing, or is it unheard of, or more appropriate for other distances?

I have never heard of replacing long runs for a marathon runner. Seems complete madness to me. Out of interest, where did you hear that?

dev123

While not replacing long runs jack daniels does incorporate tempo paced cruise intervals into nearly all his quality sessions. These could be 4 x 6 minutes up to 2 x 20 minutes at around 10k pace sandwiched between miles of easy running. Covering 2.5 miles at 10k pace after 15 miles certainly focuses the mind!!!

A0

kingQuez wrote: »

When running and building strength for marathon distance runs, what sort of intervals do people typically use? Last year I was doing 8-10x3mins at various paces (10k and half marathon) for speed, but a suggestion I've come across was talking about replacing some long runs with long intervals to improve run strength - eventually building up to doing about 20 reps of 800m. Anyone tried this sort of thing, or is it unheard of, or more appropriate for other distances?

Replacing some long runs with long intervals is not that bad. Alternatively, you can include these long intervals in your long-ish runs (for example running 1h30, including 6 x 3min at 10k pace).
To answer your question, I have never tried doing loads of 800 or 1k reps, I know that Kenyans do... might be worth trying this when you are not specifically training for marathon and don't have to do a high weekly mileage. Then when you train for a marathon, come back to your long runs. I include long tempo sessions in my long runs (like 2 x 10min or 2 x 15min or 3 x 10min).

ultrapercy

A lot of elite marathon runners do session long runs. Intervals are built into a long run. For example 1k at HM pace 1k easy by 12 with wup and cdn included to make 20 miles. One I do is 3 miles MP 3miles easy by 4 for a 24 miler. I think running all long runs slow or easy leaves you under prepared to race hard,but these runs would be for the more experienced marathon runner. These runs sound hard and do take an amount of recovery but are mentaly easier I find. Of course long slow runs are also apart of early prep for building a base.

kingQuez

Thanks for the comments/info. I really have to pick up one of the running bibles and have a read of it to find out what's "normal". Last time I flicked through "advanced marathoning" I got scared looking at the weekly mileage even for the shortest of plans!

The suggestion came from someone I was talking with via email. I think they suggested it since both a long run and a long set of intervals would probably be too much volume and intensity in a single week for me. I've a decent level of fitness, but need to adjust to running harder instead of doing everything slow and easy. I don't think they were talking about dropping all long runs, just replacing them for a block of time with this interval approach.

FWIW I can see the advantage of building some strength with sessions like this, but my main reservation against it is the increased risk of injury and the extra recovery time the session would require.

So ultrapercy raises another question from me... what is the goal of base training? From plans I've seen it generally seems to be there to improve your aerobic fitness. But if you're starting into a year with a good base already, how should/would the emphasis on where you spend your time go?

tunguska

kingQuez wrote: »

When running and building strength for marathon distance runs, what sort of intervals do people typically use? Last year I was doing 8-10x3mins at various paces (10k and half marathon) for speed, but a suggestion I've come across was talking about replacing some long runs with long intervals to improve run strength - eventually building up to doing about 20 reps of 800m. Anyone tried this sort of thing, or is it unheard of, or more appropriate for other distances?

I see where you're coming from but I'd incorporate the intervals into a long run. I'd make the intervals longer aswell, minimum 1k but preferably 1 and 2mile reps. Daniels marathon program is based around this structure. I mean a session I'll be doing this week is:

2miles easy + 2miles @ Interval pace + 2mins easy + 2miles @ Interval pace + 2mins easy + 2 miles @ Interval pace + 10miles easy.

Which is about 16 miles in total. So you get in long intervals within a framework of a high volume session. You could also do something like:

5miles easy + 8 miles Threshold pace + 5miles easy

Which is 18miles.

TFBubendorfer

ultrapercy wrote: »

A lot of elite marathon runners do session long runs. Intervals are built into a long run. For example 1k at HM pace 1k easy by 12 with wup and cdn included to make 20 miles. One I do is 3 miles MP 3miles easy by 4 for a 24 miler.

That all makes perfect sense, but that's a very different session from the 20x800 that the OP mentioned in the original post.

Same for the Daniels example. That's nothing like 20x800.

ecoli

Would agree I think that some Long runs can be substituted for Intervals however the OPs example are too short to be justified to give similar benefits to long runs

Any time I have seen these sort of long run substitutes its either Daniels type long runs or something along the lines of 3 or 4x5k @ MP (or slightly quicker 30k race pace) off 3 min recovery

The likes of 20x400 can be a good session for Marathon runners alright but it should be separate to the Long run (or long run substitute)

ecoli

dev123 wrote: »

While not replacing long runs jack daniels does incorporate tempo paced cruise intervals into nearly all his quality sessions. These could be 4 x 6 minutes up to 2 x 20 minutes at around 10k pace sandwiched between miles of easy running. Covering 2.5 miles at 10k pace after 15 miles certainly focuses the mind!!!

For many runners this would be 10k or greater worth of 10k paced work in a workout that is part of a long run? Tempo pace in this case I think would have to be much closer to HM pace than 10k

ecoli

kingQuez wrote: »

So ultrapercy raises another question from me... what is the goal of base training? From plans I've seen it generally seems to be there to improve your aerobic fitness. But if you're starting into a year with a good base already, how should/would the emphasis on where you spend your time go?

I think you should probably approach it the same way. Aerobic Capacity is something you can build on year in year out and there are very few people who ever actually max out their Aerobic capacity.

However base should not just be lots of easy miles. Its a great time to address form. My "base" phase usually includes short Hills, strides, short reps and tempos. The main thing you have to establish is exactly what you are getting from each session and how to adjust this to suit the phase. This year I was doing hills early season and mid season one could argue they should be either part of base or race conditioning however by simply changing the dynamics of the session to suit the time of year both offered completely different benefits

A0

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I have never heard of replacing long runs for a marathon runner. Seems complete madness to me. Out of interest, where did you hear that?

Really? Are you doing 52 long runs a year (once a week)? I've never heard of any marathon runner (unless elite, but then they get injured, so...) doing a long run every Sunday. I think it depends on where you are in your training plan... It may not be recommended to miss a long run when you are really aiming for a marathon (i.e., in the 8-12 weeks preceding the race, depending on your level, etc.), but you can replace long runs by the type of session the OP mentioned.

dev123

ecoli wrote: »

dev123 wrote: »

While not replacing long runs jack daniels does incorporate tempo paced cruise intervals into nearly all his quality sessions. These could be 4 x 6 minutes up to 2 x 20 minutes at around 10k pace sandwiched between miles of easy running. Covering 2.5 miles at 10k pace after 15 miles certainly focuses the mind!!!

For many runners this would be 10k or greater worth of 10k paced work in a workout that is part of a long run? Tempo pace in this case I think would have to be much closer to HM pace than 10k

A 40 min 10k runner would have a daniels tempo pace of 6.38 min/mile, which according to mcmillan is in the middle between 10k and HM pace. One daniels session can have up to 44 mins of combined running at this tempo pace as part of a 20 to 21 mile session.

The man is a sadist. Pure and simple

ecoli

A0 wrote: »

Really? Are you doing 52 long runs a year (once a week)? I've never heard of any marathon runner (unless elite, but then they get injured, so...) doing a long run every Sunday. I think it depends on where you are in your training plan... It may not be recommended to miss a long run when you are really aiming for a marathon (i.e., in the 8-12 weeks preceding the race, depending on your level, etc.), but you can replace long runs by the type of session the OP mentioned.

Most runners I know would do long run pretty much every week. The only thing you have to look at is the length of the run described as "Long run".

Most marathon runners will run 2 marathons roughly a year and as such they are only spending maybe half the year in marathon specific training and as such the rest of the time they are training for something else so while a run might be shorter if they are doing say 5k specific training it is still a long run in the strict sense of the word but the focus is moreso on the sessions rather than that run compared to Marathon runners who use the Long run as one of their key sessions in the week for the most part.

A 10-14 mile run during 5k/10k training can be a long run just as much as a 20 miler during Marathon training and this is an aspect which needs to be looked at when analyzing training you need to look at the current targets.

I know Most weeks this year I have done Long runs (even if I racing on a sunday sometimes push it to mondays) the few exceptions would be down time in training or other extenuating circumstances

ecoli

dev123 wrote: »

A 40 min 10k runner would have a daniels tempo pace of 6.38 min/mile, which according to mcmillan is in the middle between 10k and HM pace. One daniels session can have up to 44 mins of combined running at this tempo pace as part of a 20 to 21 mile session.

The man is a sadist. Pure and simple

This sounds a bit better as roughly 12 secs per mile slower than 10k pace. When I first saw this i thought it was actual 10k pace for 5k twice in long run. Still tough though seems slightly more sensible.

Edit: looking at this calc even suggests a slightly slower pace of 6.44. To me that would be more in line with the pace should be run alright

http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm

TFBubendorfer

A0 wrote: »

Really? Are you doing 52 long runs a year (once a week)? I've never heard of any marathon runner (unless elite, but then they get injured, so...) doing a long run every Sunday. I think it depends on where you are in your training plan... It may not be recommended to miss a long run when you are really aiming for a marathon (i.e., in the 8-12 weeks preceding the race, depending on your level, etc.), but you can replace long runs by the type of session the OP mentioned.

Apart from the time when I'm recovering from a marathon, yes, I'm usually doing a long run a week. And despite your misgivings, I'm pretty damn sure I'm not the only non-elite marathon runner who trains like that. As for getting injured, I have missed maybe 2 weeks of running in the last 3 years due to injury.

The OP mentioned that he is scared of the mileage in the P&D plan (which peaks at only 55 miles in my edition for the shortest plan) and you guys are recommending advanced workouts for elites and/or elite Kenyans as alternatives. That's pure madness in my view.

A0

ecoli wrote: »

Most runners I know would do long run pretty much every week. The only thing you have to look at is the length of the run described as "Long run".

Most marathon runners will run 2 marathons roughly a year and as such they are only spending maybe half the year in marathon specific training and as such the rest of the time they are training for something else so while a run might be shorter if they are doing say 5k specific training it is still a long run in the strict sense of the word but the focus is moreso on the sessions rather than that run compared to Marathon runners who use the Long run as one of their key sessions in the week for the most part.

A 10-14 mile run during 5k/10k training can be a long run just as much as a 20 miler during Marathon training and this is an aspect which needs to be looked at when analyzing training you need to look at the current targets.

I know Most weeks this year I have done Long runs (even if I racing on a sunday sometimes push it to mondays) the few exceptions would be down time in training or other extenuating circumstances

True, the whole point is the context. My reply was based on the OP question (related to marathon running and not other distances). So it's generally accepted that, in marathon running, a long run is 2-2h30. So most runners do a long run most weeks but not a long run as in marathon running. Therefore, you can do the type of training the OP mentions every now and again when you are not specifically training for a marathon. That's why I was surprised to see someone saying "I do long runs (2h-2h30) every week".

A0

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Apart from the time when I'm recovering from a marathon, yes, I'm usually doing a long run a week. And despite your misgivings, I'm pretty damn sure I'm not the only non-elite marathon runner who trains like that. As for getting injured, I have missed maybe 2 weeks of running in the last 3 years due to injury.

The OP mentioned that he is scared of the mileage in the P&D plan (which peaks at only 55 miles in my edition for the shortest plan) and you guys are recommending advanced workouts for elites and/or elite Kenyans as alternatives. That's pure madness in my view.

I've replied above but...
So you are doing a long run a week, as 2-2h30? Every week? I trust you if you train 3 times a week

Mileage and workouts are different. The OP point was to replace the long runs by 800s or so. Which doesn't mean you have to do a crazy mileage. I think it's a good session to work around or at your threshold / tempo pace (THE ideal session doesn't exist, training is not a science). I mentioned Kenyans, didn't say the OP should train as a Kenyan If you look at it, 10 x 800 is not pure madness (depending on the pace you do them at of course).

TFBubendorfer

A0 wrote: »

I've replied above but...
So you are doing a long run a week, as 2-2h30? Every week? I trust you if you train 3 times a week

*sigh* ok, this is seriously going off-topic.

Yes, I do run 2 hours at least once a week for the majority of the year. I've had times when I did 3 2-2.5 hour runs a week, but I was training for an ultra at the time.

I run 7 times a week for between 45 and 50 weeks a year. The rest of the weeks are for the time immediately before and after a marathon when I take a few days off.

Note: I am NOT suggesting that the OP should replicate that kind of schedule, certainly not if he feels intimidated by the mileage in the P&D plans.

Mileage and workouts are different. The OP point was to replace the long runs by 800s or so. Which doesn't mean you have to do a crazy mileage. I think it's a good session to work around or at your threshold / tempo pace (THE ideal session doesn't exist, training is not a science). I mentioned Kenyans, didn't say the OP should train as a Kenyan If you look at it, 10 x 800 is not pure madness (depending on the pace you do them at of course).

I suspect we are talking 2 completely different things here. The OP mentioned that he's scared of 55-mile weeks (ok, he said it indirectly) and from that I get the impression he wants to do marathon training while avoiding long runs altogether. That's just not going to work, and 20x800 sessions are just mad for anyone but the most experienced marathon runner who has already built up his endurance by years of long runs.

Replacing some long runs with other sessions that include faster paced runs is an entirely different matter altogether. I have done plenty of those myself, but not until after doing a lot of "standard" long runs.

RayCun

A0 wrote: »

So you are doing a long run a week, as 2-2h30? Every week? I trust you if you train 3 times a week

Have a look at the 1000 mile challenge table.
Look up near the top :pac:

kingQuez

Some interesting comments and lots for me to go read up on now

As for the 55miles a week, my memory was that their plans started at 70miles a week? Guess I wasn't looking at the shortest mileage plan. That said, the last year or so I've been doing all training off time and not distance -- I think it would probably have maxed out at about 60-70k a week. Im swimming and cycling too, which has thrown a bit of a cap on the amount of time I've got to run - otherwise I would be running a more frequently which would bump the total miles.

A0

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

*sigh* ok, this is seriously going off-topic.

Yes, I do run 2 hours at least once a week for the majority of the year. I've had times when I did 3 2-2.5 hour runs a week, but I was training for an ultra at the time.

I run 7 times a week for between 45 and 50 weeks a year. The rest of the weeks are for the time immediately before and after a marathon when I take a few days off.

Note: I am NOT suggesting that the OP should replicate that kind of schedule, certainly not if he feels intimidated by the mileage in the P&D plans.



I suspect we are talking 2 completely different things here. The OP mentioned that he's scared of 55-mile weeks (ok, he said it indirectly) and from that I get the impression he wants to do marathon training while avoiding long runs altogether. That's just not going to work, and 20x800 sessions are just mad for anyone but the most experienced marathon runner who has already built up his endurance by years of long runs.

Replacing some long runs with other sessions that include faster paced runs is an entirely different matter altogether. I have done plenty of those myself, but not until after doing a lot of "standard" long runs.

You are very consistent and probably the only runner I know who trains that hard for a long period of time without injury.

20 x 800s sounds mad, but if you replace a long run by this session, implement a 1:1 work to rest ratio and run them between half marathon and marathon pace (not 10k) it should be ok, not easy... Might be an alternative of the classic (but good) way of training such as 2 x 10 or 2 x 20 min tempo in the middle of a long run... And if 20 x 800 is too much might be worth trying 12 x 800 and, when targeting a marathon coming back to the classics (long runs, tempo, steady...).

ecoli

A0 wrote: »

You are very consistent and probably the only runner I know who trains that hard for a long period of time without injury.

20 x 800s sounds mad, but if you replace a long run by this session, implement a 1:1 work to rest ratio and run them between half marathon and marathon pace (not 10k) it should be ok, not easy... Might be an alternative of the classic (but good) way of training such as 2 x 10 or 2 x 20 min tempo in the middle of a long run... And if 20 x 800 is too much might be worth trying 12 x 800 and, when targeting a marathon coming back to the classics (long runs, tempo, steady...).

Equal recovery for HM - Marathon paced workouts is too long to get the specific benefits needed to have this type of session replace a Long run and there are too many reps to be working other specific zones properly. To me this is just doing reps for the sake of them to add up to enough mileage to attempt to replicate a long run

As the OP stated the first suggestion was to do a session and a Long run but he is seeing whether they combine adequately in that format to make a mix of quality and quantity the fact is that type of session cannot be made into a replicate long run effectively

TFBubendorfer

kingQuez wrote: »

Some interesting comments and lots for me to go read up on now

As for the 55miles a week, my memory was that their plans started at 70miles a week? Guess I wasn't looking at the shortest mileage plan. That said, the last year or so I've been doing all training off time and not distance -- I think it would probably have maxed out at about 60-70k a week. Im swimming and cycling too, which has thrown a bit of a cap on the amount of time I've got to run - otherwise I would be running a more frequently which would bump the total miles.

I have the 2nd edition of that book and the shortest plan peaks at 55 mpw. There is a newer edition, but I'd be surprised if they got rid of that schedule altogether.

Let me state it very clearly: if you want to train properly for a marathon and do yourself justice over the distance, you will have to do some long runs. Cycling and swimming as cross training works up to a point, but you will not get the best out of yourself unless you actually and seriously train for a marathon, following a decent training plan. Just bite the bullet and give it a go. I very well remember how nervous I was before my first ever 20-mile training run. There is just no way around that, but once you've done it once, it becomes a lot less intimidating.

A0

ecoli wrote: »

Equal recovery for HM - Marathon paced workouts is too long to get the specific benefits needed to have this type of session replace a Long run and there are too many reps to be working other specific zones properly. To me this is just doing reps for the sake of them to add up to enough mileage to attempt to replicate a long run

As the OP stated the first suggestion was to do a session and a Long run but he is seeing whether they combine adequately in that format to make a mix of quality and quantity the fact is that type of session cannot be made into a replicate long run effectively

Not entirely wrong but as this session will last for a while (i.e., duration effect) there will be drifts (cardiac and others), these will lead to increase in muscle recruitment to maintain the targeted pace, then running in a pre-fatigued to fatigued state and therefore there should be some benefits although a 1:1 work to rest ratio. This ratio is a good choice for beginners... then people get an idea and can adjust it.

No, the OP idea was to replace a long run by long intervals... not to do a session and a long run.

ecoli

A0 wrote: »

Not entirely wrong but as this session will last for a while (i.e., duration effect) there will be drifts (cardiac and others), these will lead to increase in muscle recruitment to maintain the targeted pace, then running in a pre-fatigued to fatigued state and therefore there should be some benefits although a 1:1 work to rest ratio. This ratio is a good choice for beginners... then people get an idea and can adjust it.

No, the OP idea was to replace a long run by long intervals... not to do a session and a long run.

kingQuez wrote: »

The suggestion came from someone I was talking with via email. I think they suggested it since both a long run and a long set of intervals would probably be too much volume and intensity in a single week for me.

The fact that he feels both are too much means he is trying to combine the session and Long if it will work.

While I can see what you are saying in terms of there no such thing as a run without some benefit the fact is that there are no runners (or atleast I hope not) who will train ineffectively and think "ah sure I am getting something out of it atleast"

The fact is that runners who are looking to improve are aiming to get the maximum benefit from every mile they run. Each mile has a purpose and an ultimate role in the grand scheme of a training plan. While there is some benefit by simply running any duration at paces of higher intensity with some recovery the fact is that there are more sensible approaches which would yield alot greater benefits to the specific needs of the OP in order to improve his performance.

As you have said yes there is no "ideal session" there are ideal types of sessions to suit the particular needs of an athlete at any one point in training in order to maximize improvement

Clearlier

A0 wrote: »

Not entirely wrong but as this session will last for a while (i.e., duration effect) there will be drifts (cardiac and others), these will lead to increase in muscle recruitment to maintain the targeted pace, then running in a pre-fatigued to fatigued state and therefore there should be some benefits although a 1:1 work to rest ratio. This ratio is a good choice for beginners... then people get an idea and can adjust it.

No, the OP idea was to replace a long run by long intervals... not to do a session and a long run.

Are we talking distance or time here because if it's distance then it's definitely a long run.

There's no way that TFB is unique in running for 2 hours once a week every week. I thought that was normal for non-novices actually..... Lydiard talked about 3 long runs a week during the base phase.

A0

ecoli wrote: »

The fact that he feels both are too much means he is trying to combine the session and Long if it will work.

While I can see what you are saying in terms of there no such thing as a run without some benefit the fact is that there are no runners (or atleast I hope not) who will train ineffectively and think "ah sure I am getting something out of it atleast"

The fact is that runners who are looking to improve are aiming to get the maximum benefit from every mile they run. Each mile has a purpose and an ultimate role in the grand scheme of a training plan. While there is some benefit by simply running any duration at paces of higher intensity with some recovery the fact is that there are more sensible approaches which would yield alot greater benefits to the specific needs of the OP in order to improve his performance.

As you have said yes there is no "ideal session" there are ideal types of sessions to suit the particular needs of an athlete at any one point in training in order to maximize improvement

I replied to the original post (the very first one), so it was about replacing a long run by long intervals.

Yes... thanks... we all know why runners are running and that it's important to structure a plan, implement high intensity sessions, etc
As training is not a science, we could argue forever about whether or not long intervals should be run every now and again as a replacement of a long run and that the 1:1 work to rest ratio is not appropriate, etc. However, as we are talking about probably a few weeks of training, it shouldn't hurt (change in routine are good, psychologically speaking) as long as the runner stays competitive and enjoys doing it... Then, as I said before, when aiming for a race, moving back to classic long runs, including tempo sessions in a fatigued and non-fatigued state.

A0

RayCun wrote: »

Have a look at the 1000 mile challenge table.
Look up near the top :pac:

Just saw that, very good!