Bar / Restaurant Levies – Who needs them?

davidrafferty

In these tough economic times, why do so many clubs insist on levying outmoded “Celtic Tiger” charges on their members?
Golf club members should not be tied into paying for an uneconomic restaurant or bar.
Such ancillary services should either pay for themselves or be allowed exist at an agreed level of loss for “social” reasons. The choice to use them should be optional - I use our club facilities because I want to.
Levies are just a form of cross-subsidy and only encourage inefficiency and bad customer service.

VikingG

Just curious are you able to spend your vouchers in the pro shop... I know some clubs allow this...

davidrafferty

Practices seem to vary from club to club.
Some clubs pay their golf pro (usually by means of a "retainer") - others don't and the pro has to earn a living using the club as a base.
Again, I'd prefer to have the levies removed and leave the choice to the consumer as to whether to use the bar, restaurant or pro shop.

Dr_Colossus

davidrafferty wrote: »

I'd prefer to have the levies removed and leave the choice to the consumer as to whether to use the bar, restaurant or pro shop.

Agreed and I've seen some clubs charge up to an extortionate €300 in social levies on top of their annual subs and GUI subscriptions/insurance.

Granted golf club restaurants are often good value offering large portions at moderate prices but as David highlighted the golfer should have the option rather than the obligation of using these facilities at their home club.
Whatever about being able to use vouchers in the pro shop if social levies are imposed by a club I'd prefer to have the option of using it's equivalent in competition entries throughout the year.

davidrafferty

Another important point that a lot of clubs are ignoring and we found to our cost in our club is that "the tax man cometh".

Whatever you call them - bar / restaurant levy or social charge - more than likely, VAT will ultimately be payable on the "unused" portion at year end.

Cost us several thousand Euro a few years back, following prolonged negotiations with the tax man.

thewobbler

My feelings on this are that if it means the greens are definitely mowed, pints are definitely served, and a sandwich is always available, then it's a fairly equitable way of keeping things ticking over.

BoardsMember

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Agreed and I've seen some clubs charge up to an extortionate €300 in social levies on top of their annual subs and GUI subscriptions/insurance.

I wish, ours is more than twice that, and must be used in the bar or the restaurant only :mad:

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Granted golf club restaurants are often good value offering large portions at moderate prices but as David highlighted the golfer should have the option rather than the obligation of using these facilities at their home club.
Whatever about being able to use vouchers in the pro shop if social levies are imposed by a club I'd prefer to have the option of using it's equivalent in competition entries throughout the year.

You cant really ban a member of a golf club from the bar or the restaurant, so having it as optional is not really an "option".

The idea of the levy (in our place anyhow) is to close the gap between costs of running the bar and restaurant, and income from same. The alernative to this levy are to try to reduce their operating costs, to increase the income. to close them, or let them be run by an outside agency.

We have chosen the first 2 options, but dont seem to have been too successful in getting good results, so our levy continues to be ridiculously big.

stockdam

this was a very sore point with me when it first came into my club many years ago.

It "forced" me to use a restaurant that served poor food and provided poor service. I like to play golf, not eat poor quality food. If the restaurant is good then it will survive otherwise close it and open a small cafe that serves only sandwiches. Times are tough and I don't have spare cash to throw away.

pauldoo

on the other side, my club doesnt have a levy, to cut costs in the club the stopped serving food and got rid of sky. clubhouse is like a ghost town now, i played saturday and it was freezing, i would have killed for some soup or hot food. the social element of my club is non excistent because of it

Dr_Colossus

BoardsMember wrote: »

I wish, ours is more than twice that, and must be used in the bar or the restaurant only :mad:

That's insane, the bar/restaurant levy in your club is in excess of €600 a year? That's more than the majority of golfers spend on their annual subs with the purpose of playing golf rather than subsidising an inefficient and poorly run restaurant and bar. How come the members in your club are not kicking up a fuss and refusing to pay the levy forcing the restaurant to either cut it's costs or close it's doors?

golfwallah

For rip-off “social levies” to continue, all that’s needed is complacent management and compliant members. That mix was OK in during the boom years but not in recession.

These days, members have the choice of voting with their feet and going elsewhere or sticking around and voicing their views of overcharging to the powers that be. Most people, who are not satisfied with prices, will start looking around and take action when the inflated bill comes in. That’s the way the market works!

It’s the job of management to manage customer (member) relations, stay in tune with what they want and satisfy their service requirements (both price and quality). There’s plenty of competition out there for members and now that hello money is disappearing fast, it’s much easier to join another club.
Complacent and bad management / committees take note – it took Ryanair to come along with affordable air travel for Aer Lingus and others to follow suit – how you do it is your problem but please stop passing the cost of inaction / inefficiency on to your customers. History shows that you’ll regret it if you do!

Dtoffee

I have no problem with a small bar / restaurant levy of say €100. I like to support the clubhouse staff by at least having a drink and a sambo. I do not see the point in joining a golf club and not having a social side to it, theres nothing better than good banter in the club house.

I agree with golfwallah, clubs have got to get their prices right ..... if its rip off republic then I'm outta there.

BoardsMember

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

That's insane, the bar/restaurant levy in your club is in excess of €600 a year? That's more than the majority of golfers spend on their annual subs with the purpose of playing golf rather than subsidising an inefficient and poorly run restaurant and bar. How come the members in your club are not kicking up a fuss and refusing to pay the levy forcing the restaurant to either cut it's costs or close it's doors?

Yeah, tell me about it. The problem is we have a relatively old, and largely affluent membership, so its not going to move south any time soon. The problem is that these members want their 3 course meal available Wednesday to Saturday, and hot meals & plenty bar staff 7 days a week. That's not cheap to staff or to manage from a catering perspective.

veetwin

Glad we don't have a levy where I am. I can safely say that in 7 years of membership I have seen the bar 3 times and never actually had a pint there. Typical car park member I'm afraid but family commitments dictate that I play my golf and get out as quickly as possible. Probably not a bad idea to have a small levy - I would certainly use the bar more then for food as would most members

davidrafferty

BoardsMember wrote: »

Yeah, tell me about it. The problem is we have a relatively old, and largely affluent membership, so its not going to move south any time soon. The problem is that these members want their 3 course meal available Wednesday to Saturday, and hot meals & plenty bar staff 7 days a week. That's not cheap to staff or to manage from a catering perspective.

That's all fine & dandy but why should largely affluent members be subsidized by people who don't use the restaurant Wednesday to Saturday?
Whilst the restaurant has the safety net of subsidies, there is no incentive to innovate or make things better - so easier to pass on the loss to the rest of the members, who appear to be a soft touch, from what you are saying.
In our club, the restaurant is a franchise and the restaurant manager has to do his bit to come up with ways to bring in the level of business he needs to make a living. If he can't do that, no good looking to our members for a subsidy - we'll just get someone else who can do the job ........ and in recession there are queues of people to do just that.
But then again, that's our club and that's what our members want - value for money.
Maybe you should start talking to other people like yourself and work up a head of steam with enough people to let those in charge know what you want (after all, they should be representing all the members - not just an influential few).

saintastic

thewobbler wrote: »

My feelings on this are that if it means the greens are definitely mowed, pints are definitely served, and a sandwich is always available, then it's a fairly equitable way of keeping things ticking over.

pauldoo wrote: »

on the other side, my club doesnt have a levy, to cut costs in the club the stopped serving food and got rid of sky. clubhouse is like a ghost town now, i played saturday and it was freezing, i would have killed for some soup or hot food. the social element of my club is non excistent because of it

For me, it is a very simple equation. A bar/restaurant levy = having a bar/restaurant. If you don't have the levy, people will eat and drink less in the bar/restaurant because of the recession and as a result, it will go out of business. Then there will be no catering facilities and people will then complain.

As with the two examples above, a levy means you will always have someone there to pour you a pint, serve you a hot bowl of soup and a sandwich or if you take away the levy, you will end up with a ghost town clubhouse like Pauldoo. That's what it comes down to.

Everyone can see their golf club's annual reports, generally they're not in a position to support a sporadically supported catering service, they need to guarantee some revenue.

davidrafferty

For me the simple equation reads: bar/restaurant levy = short term “easy way out” for the committee / club management and avoidable higher charges to members.
Higher member charges mean more people will re-assess the overall value proposition in the light of recession, register their complaint by not renewing and, as a result, the club will be more likely to go out of business in the long run.
With a bit of imagination, forethought and adaptation to changing times, ancillary services like the bar / restaurant can be made to pay for themselves without the need for levies.

Almaviva

davidrafferty wrote: »

For me the simple equation reads: bar/restaurant levy = short term “easy way out” for the committee / club management and avoidable higher charges to members.
Higher member charges mean more people will re-assess the overall value proposition in the light of recession, register their complaint by not renewing and, as a result, the club will be more likely to go out of business in the long run.
With a bit of imagination, forethought and adaptation to changing times, ancillary services like the bar / restaurant can be made to pay for themselves without the need for levies.

I presume you are joining your club's committee next year so, and will implement your self financing bar/restaurant system ?

Let us know how it goes.


Almaviva,
A Golf Club Chairman.

davidrafferty

Almaviva wrote: »

I presume you are joining your club's committee next year so, and will implement your self financing bar/restaurant system ?

Let us know how it goes.

Almaviva,
A Golf Club Chairman.

Don't need to, Almaviva, we implemented our self financing bar/restaurant system years ago.
And guess what?
It works .... but, it's not an easy job, requires quite a bit of work to get going, so best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

davidrafferty

Almaviva wrote: »

I presume you are joining your club's committee next year so, and will implement your self financing bar/restaurant system ?

Let us know how it goes.


Almaviva,
A Golf Club Chairman.

Hi Almaviva, Sent you a pm on this.

golfwallah

Clubs that keep their rates down by eliminating bar / restaurant levies are showing an awareness of the tough economic times we are in.

They are also demonstrating that they are taking the trouble to do everything they can to keep existing members (their best customers) and attract new ones.

Provided, of course, that they keep up all service standards - both on and off the course - and balance their books.

After all, there are plenty of choices out there at the moment - at last the customer is king again!

scout353

I think that there is one element being forgotten in this debate and that being a member of any club is being far more than a car park member.

We have a bar levy (€127) which offers a 5% discount on purchases from the bar (inhouse) and catering (external). I would normally add at least three/four times that to the card each year as I believe that as a member I should be supporting my club.

Even if it's a cup of coffee afterwards (yesterday's rain meant I was soaking and the warmth of the clubhouse coupled with a nice hot coffee and sandwich was very welcome) I think I am contributing (a) to the social aspect of the club and (b) to the economic requirements of the club.

Driving into the carpark, playing golf and driving away again doesn't do much for club spirit! And a lot of those members are the first to complain if the locker room is dirty or the course is not maintained.

All the income streams help the club and at least I get to use my levy (plus some)!

stockdam

scout353 wrote: »

Driving into the carpark, playing golf and driving away again doesn't do much for club spirit! And a lot of those members are the first to complain if the locker room is dirty or the course is not maintained.

It's not very clever making general statements like the above. Some people drive from afar and don't have the time to spend in the bar......some people do not drink when driving (they can have a soft drink but some have families to get back home to). I have no evidence that "car-park" golfers complain more than anyone else.

Some of these members may have supported the club for many, many years and so I would respect their opinions. They are "customers" and rather than try to force them to do something they don't want to do then I'd suggest that clubs hold onto them as they may take their hard earned money elsewhere. They come to play golf, not to spend all day at the club.

Yes I'd prefer that all members supported the club but some of them don't have a lot of cash to throw away so entice them in with excellent service and good food but at least listen to them.

scout353

stockdam wrote: »

It's not very clever making general statements like the above. Some people drive from afar and don't have the time to spend in the bar......some people do not drink when driving (they can have a soft drink but some have families to get back home to). I have no evidence that "car-park" golfers complain more than anyone else.

Some of these members may have supported the club for many, many years and so I would respect their opinions. They are "customers" and rather than try to force them to do something they don't want to do then I'd suggest that clubs hold onto them as they may take their hard earned money elsewhere. They come to play golf, not to spend all day at the club.

Yes I'd prefer that all members supported the club but some of them don't have a lot of cash to throw away so entice them in with excellent service and good food but at least listen to them.

The point I was making was that a club is a group of like-minded people who come together for a common purpose.

Even if it's only a cup of coffee, it's not too much to ask for someone to come into the clubhouse and support their club.

The other choice is to not be a member and just pay green fees somewhere to play.

But I do believe there is a responsibility that comes with membership to support a club (any sporting club) !

harpsman

God what a bunch of killjoys.The least you can do as a member of a club is spend a bit of time and a few quid in the clubhouse-thats why its called a club,not just a golf course.
Most clubhouse bars and restaurants provid a good service and good value but due to the nature of their location they re never going to be viable stand alone businesses.
Car park members-who needs em?

GreeBo

davidrafferty wrote: »

Bar / Restaurant Levies – Who needs them?.

The clubs do.

pauldoo

harpsman wrote: »

Car park members-who needs em?

I think a lot of clubs would be only too happy to accept them. Plus its a lot to ask for a member to pay 1000 a year, plus comps and then expect them to have their dinner etc in the club house every week, golf is an expensive enough game as it is.

In saying that everyone should try support their club but it has limits

PRAF

I'm not a fan of these levies. My club doesn't have them thankfully. I still go into the club for a sandwich & coffee a good bit of the time. However, the crucial thing is I don't feel like I have to just because I prepaid.

Let's not forget, a round of golf can take upwards of 4 hours. With travelling to / from the course, pre-round practice etc you are looking at between 5 or 6 hours. For guys who have other committments, young families etc sometimes it just isn't possible to devote another hour to having a sociable lunch

saintastic

PRAF wrote: »

I'm not a fan of these levies. My club doesn't have them thankfully. I still go into the club for a sandwich & coffee a good bit of the time.

I think this is the ideal scenario but unfortunately a golf club cannot rely on all the members being as "good" as you in this respect.

I think in the long run what it is going to come down to is people will either:

A. Play in a golf club with no clubhouse and as a result - no levy
B. Play in a golf club with good clubhouse facilities - and a levy to help towards running costs.

Golf clubs will then have to decide whether it is possible to get enough members to be a club in group B. If not, they have to be in group A.

Car park members will be happy with club A. Clubhouse members will be happy with B.

If you are in group A above and your local club is in group B or vice versa, you may have to travel further for golf but that's a part of the cost/benefit analysis.

scout353

PRAF wrote: »

I'm not a fan of these levies. My club doesn't have them thankfully. I still go into the club for a sandwich & coffee a good bit of the time. However, the crucial thing is I don't feel like I have to just because I prepaid.

Let's not forget, a round of golf can take upwards of 4 hours. With travelling to / from the course, pre-round practice etc you are looking at between 5 or 6 hours. For guys who have other committments, young families etc sometimes it just isn't possible to devote another hour to having a sociable lunch

I wasn't saying that you have to eat lunch there every time - just be a proper (perhaps active is a better word) member and support the club where possible!

I am lucky in that I live less than 10 mins from my club and I do support it where possible - be it drinks after a round or a cup of coffee. I may not eat lunch there after every round - in fact I would only use the restaurant facilities about 3/4 times per year (outside of major functions there) but I always feel that I should at least show my support for MY club, the one I choose to be a member of and I buy into all that goes with such membership!

I do appreciate others have commitments, travel issues, etc and that's fine too!

golfwallah

pauldoo wrote: »

I think a lot of clubs would be only too happy to accept them. Plus its a lot to ask for a member to pay 1000 a year, plus comps and then expect them to have their dinner etc in the club house every week, golf is an expensive enough game as it is.

In saying that everyone should try support their club but it has limits

Agreed!

I'm all for supporting clubhouse services but the golf market is segmenting and there isn't just one type of customer out there, who will support everything in the club.

So called "car park members" are just one of many interest groups (or market segments) and the clubs that satisfy their needs will attract more people from these segments.

Freedom of choice is a better way to do this than imposing levies on all members - the market will demonstrate this in the long run.

Sandwlch

pauldoo wrote: »

In saying that everyone should try support their club but it has limits

I'm not really sure why there is an expectation from some that you should 'support' your club in this way. Is support not just another way of buying a service or something that you dont really want. Let the carpark member be just that - thats what he wants to pay for. He is not interested in 'club atmosphere' in the bar. Let the member who does want that, pay what ever the price is to provide bar or restaurant services there. But it is unfair to impose part of that cost on the member who didnt want it in the first place.

Compare with clubs with driving ranges. Most charge for balls. So users of the range pay its costs. A more equitable solution than imposing a driving range levy on all members, for some of whom, bashing balls on the range is a fate worse than death and will never be seen there.

davidrafferty

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but, for golf club financial survival and long term viability, it would be a lot safer to rely on fact based research such as:

Promoting Golf Club Membership (Published by GUI, ILGU & PGA Irish Region in 2009):
http://www.ilgu.ie/uploads/docs/2138_ClubMembership.pdf

Extracts from this document

“This booklet aims to assist clubs in dealing with this challenge (economic recession). It is by no means exhaustive, nor is it a blueprint – rather a tool to stimulate new thinking and debate at Committee level, and within the membership.“

“Current social trends in relation to golf are to do with people’s time availability, the wider availability of pay-as-you-play facilities and the impact of the recession on discretionary spending. In terms of attracting and retaining members clubs need to create added value relative to the perceived value of limited time availability.”

“According to the GUI Club Survey 2008 the average age of male members of affiliated clubs is 49 and according to the ILGU the average age of female members is closer to 55. These surveys and others around the world reveal almost a “lost generation” of 25 – 44 year olds in terms of club membership.”

GUI Membership Survey
http://www.gui.ie/uploads/docs/1062_gui_membership_survey.pdf

GUI Membership Survey 2008:
“Young married men with families have not the time to play golf regularly and also the cost is a major factor”.