Could a type of Communism work here?

TeddyTedson

See as we're finally trying to cut back at big budget public wages such as with the Judges, could communism be a realistic option for us?
It may be the tough measures we need to get us out of the mess we're in.
We really need a government in power for a while too that can take harsh measures to put the country back on track, without constantly being made to look like the bad guys by opposition, opposing cuts to special needs teachers ect.
This is obviously a controversial view, and not necessarily my opinion, but does anyone think it would be our best option?

Manach

No.
Would it be a case that state planning (a common goal under one central leadership), that which is most associated with economic communism would not be able to as quickly anticipate the very volatile market conditions that currently exist and are likely to in the future?

TeddyTedson

Manach wrote: »

No.
Would it be a case that state planning (a common goal under one central leadership), that which is most associated with economic communism would not be able to as quickly anticipate the very volatile market conditions that currently exist and are likely to in the future?

What about giving them total power though.
For example allowing them to hike taxes without running the risk of being put out. We'd be glad of it in 15 years probably.
If none of us had the money to spend, everything would have to come down. We should be as cheap as Spain now.

Godge

No,

We are a small open economy dependent on international trade. Just like dropping out of the euro, switching to something like communism would be the death-knell of the economy.

If you want to debate this and change my mind, please provide examples of how it might work, e.g. how we might maintain a sustainable tax base, how we might maintain jobs in multi-national corporations and how we would prevent mass emigration of the educated.

Killer Pigeon

No type of true communism would work anywhere ... anywhere ... maybe with ants though.

TeddyTedson

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

No type of true communism would work anywhere ... anywhere ... maybe with ants though.

Do you think it works in theory and becomes corrupted or that it just doesn't work?

CptMackey

TeddyTedson wrote: »

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

No type of true communism would work anywhere ... anywhere ... maybe with ants though.

Do you think it works in theory and becomes corrupted or that it just doesn't work?

I don't think it can ever work properly. However reading this got me thinking. Don't we kinda have communism for the wealthy? They get bailed out no matter what where as the rest of us have capitalism. Just look at Nama and the current problem with mortgages

Dr Galen

Are you suggesting communism or a dictatorship?

ei.sdraob

Dr Galen wrote: »

Are you suggesting communism or a dictatorship?

The two often go hand in hand

TeddyTedson

Dr Galen wrote: »

Are you suggesting communism or a dictatorship?

I guess I'm referring more to a dictatorship. Some countries seem to have well run dictatorships where the people are treated well and happy.
Fiji seem to be a success.

ei.sdraob

TeddyTedson wrote: »

I guess I'm referring more to a dictatorship. Some countries seem to have well run dictatorships where the people are treated well and happy.
Fiji seem to be a success.

What happens when our communist leader (erm dictator) decides to do crazy things like send everyone digging for potatoes or starts a war for the laugh or decides to start killing people? once you give someone so much power theres no going back

Dr Galen

ei.sdraob wrote: »

The two often go hand in hand

true, I just wanted to know what the OP meant. It just seemed that he was after some sort of benevolent dictatorship and not communism per se.

So basically TT, you'd suggest that we should remove all oversight into public policy, and just let a "trusted" head of state type arrangement, make all the calls?

Oh_Noes

TeddyTedson wrote: »

I guess I'm referring more to a dictatorship. Some countries seem to have well run dictatorships where the people are treated well and happy.
Fiji seem to be a success.

That's a completely different thread then. Communism and dictatorial government aren't two sides of the same coin by any means.

Manach

The problem with Dicatorships, based on the classical world examples, is that whilst the first generation is a can-do guy making the chariots run on time after that the heir's tend to be wishy-washy and completely ineffectual eg Dionysius of Syracuse.

Dr Galen

Wouldn't know a lot about Fiji tbh, a cursory glance at Wiki though wouldn't have me wanting to follow their lead though

goose2005

Anything run by the Irish state ends in a mess; you want to give the Irish state control over everything?

TeddyTedson

Well maybe making governments terms in office a lot longer. Perhaps 12 years would be good. It's too short sighted at the moment.

Manach

From an EU perspective, given that it's staff and institutions are constant and for all practical purposes beyond voter control, this might fill the role of long term government.

Dr Galen

What would we do though if they were crap?

Killer Pigeon

Dr Galen wrote: »

Are you suggesting communism or a dictatorship?

I say Teddy would go the full hog and vouch for a dictatorship of the proletariat. The state would lay claim to everything, even copyrights.

TeddyTedson

Dr Galen wrote: »

What would we do though if they were crap?

We wouldn't be able to do anything until the next election, unless they were overthrown. People would have to be careful with their votes.

ei.sdraob

TeddyTedson wrote: »

We wouldn't be able to do anything until the next election, unless they were overthrown. People would have to be careful with their votes.

How is that different to current situation

Dr Galen

How would we overthrow them?

Duke Leonal Felmet

Communism has failed as an economic system and produced despotic leaders time and time again. Capitalism, for all it's obvious failings, does produce real growth, in the long run. It's the wobbles in that upward trajectory that causes the problems.

Don't believe me? Go locate reliable data on Real GDP (or Real Wage) growth over the last two centuries and see for yourself.

I await the half-assed strawmanning with glee.

Jonny7

Dr Galen wrote: »

How would we overthrow them?

Well with peaceful protest of course, but we'd get shot at.

So we'd use force, but then we'd be "armed terror gangs" with IRA links.

So we'd resort to help from abroad, US/UK, but they would have been fermenting it in the first place with the sole aim of getting control of our precious peat bogs.

Enda is a lot less hassle really.

LaBaguette

TeddyTedson wrote: »

People would have to be careful with their votes.

The thing is, they tend not to be. That's the major flaw with a great number is gov. systems, Communism included : the assumption that people know what's best for themselves and/or are capable of making informed decisions.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Communism has failed as an economic system and produced despotic leaders time and time again. Capitalism, for all it's obvious failings, does produce real growth, in the long run. It's the wobbles in that upward trajectory that causes the problems.

Don't believe me? Go locate reliable data on Real GDP (or Real Wage) growth over the last two centuries and see for yourself.

Allow me. Real US GDP 1790 - 2010:


Real US GDP per Capita 1790 - 2010


See that tiny dip to the far right? That's the current crisis. During much of this series (say, 1917 - now), communist economies stagnated for decades, not just a few years.

Capitalism has many failings, such as income inequality, but it does deliver results, unlike Communism.



Don't know what real GDP means?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_gross_domestic_product

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Suryavarman

TeddyTedson wrote: »

Do you think it works in theory and becomes corrupted or that it just doesn't work?

Communism just doesn't work on any level whatsoever. It has had a terrible tendency to deteriorate into brutal murderous dictatorships. It doesn't offer people any incentive to work harder, unless you count a trip to the Gulag if you don't work hard enough. It also fails to offer any reasonable way of rationing scarce goods.

Benny_Cake

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Given that the OP has a BNP logo in his signature,I would doubt that he is of the left. As mentoned, he seems to be arguing for a straightforward disctatorship rather than a communist system.

Liam Byrne

Given the level of greed that we saw during the bubble, I'd (unfortunately) believe that too many Irish people are out for themselves and what they can get.

Communism / socialism (and there is a difference) requires a different mindset that can see a bigger picture than a bank balance.

Liam Byrne

TeddyTedson wrote: »

We wouldn't be able to do anything until the next election, unless they were overthrown. People would have to be careful with their votes.

And are the two irritating idiots in the photo in your sig not enough proof that they're not careful with votes ?

sarkozy

Hey, how long did it take in this thread for someone to say 'communism is against human nature'?

Duke Leonal Felmet

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Given the level of greed that we saw during the bubble, I'd (unfortunately) believe that too many Irish people are out for themselves and what they can get.

Communism / socialism (and there is a difference) requires a different mindset that can see a bigger picture than a bank balance.

Yes, it requires one group to reconcile supply and demand for millions of individuals interacting in an economy. Something that communism failed at time and again, the evidence speaks for itself. Bigger picture indeed...

Like I pointed out, for all its failings, Capitalism (a very broad term) does deliver, in the long run, save for the wobbly tracjectory (note the teeny bump on the right of the graphs above). Oh, and I also mentioned the issue of income inequality, etc, but since I know people don't read posts here, I may as well repeat myself.

Social democracy, which I see as a mix of capitalism and socialism, can deliver great results. I would support a form of this, perhaps more right leaning (economically) than left.

TeddyTedson

Benny_Cake wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

PermaBear wasn't referring to me.
Also the BNP logo have nothing to do with me, neither do Jedward.

MizenHead

TeddyTedson wrote: »

See as we're finally trying to cut back at big budget public wages such as with the Judges, could communism be a realistic option for us?
It may be the tough measures we need to get us out of the mess we're in.
We really need a government in power for a while too that can take harsh measures to put the country back on track, without constantly being made to look like the bad guys by opposition, opposing cuts to special needs teachers ect.
This is obviously a controversial view, and not necessarily my opinion, but does anyone think it would be our best option?

Not communism - but more realism;
Slash the pay and pensions (of over self opinionated) mid management and upwards!

MizenHead

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

No type of true communism would work anywhere ... anywhere ... maybe with ants though.

Why do you think ants are communists?

Duke Leonal Felmet

MizenHead wrote: »

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

No type of true communism would work anywhere ... anywhere ... maybe with ants though.

Why do you think ants are communists?

Why not? Bear in mind that the queen is more like a slave.