Heiniken Cup vs Super 15

Fishooks12

I've always wondered how it would work out if both competitions were somehow merged into a world club competition

I think the clash of styles would be interesting


This is purely hypothetical by the way

pickarooney

Even a one-off match between the winners of each would be a fascinating prospect.

CatFromHue

It only ever happened once when Brive were very well beaten by the Auckland Blues. Granted that was in 1997 I think.

How would Leinster get on against the Queensland Reds? Very well I think.

Fishooks12

I think the Northern Hemisphere sides would have the upper hand given how defence isn't high up in the priority list of most super 15 teams

WeeBushy

It would be a fascinating match, but the seasons are on at different times and there are enough matches as it is. It would be an exhibition match really and there isn't room for one, what with end of season international matches.

Hypothetically though, I think the top Super 15 teams and the top Heineken Cup teams would be evenly enough matched.

.ak

2011 peak season Leinster vs peak season Crusaders was something I always thought would result in quite simply THE BEST CLUB RUGBY GAME EVER!

... so I bought Rugby Challenge and set it up myself.

corny

Depends on who is reffing the game.

totallegend

They do this in rugby league, the NRL champions play the Super League champions every year, think it's been fairly even in terms of number of titles won but I'm open to correction on that.

Obviously the Heineken Cup is more varied with the likes of the Scots and Italians dragging the average quality down, but if you put say the HC semi-finalists and the Super XV semi-finalists up against each other, I'd say it would be fairly even.

andrewdcs

.ak wrote: »

2011 peak season Leinster vs peak season Crusaders was something I always thought would result in quite simply THE BEST CLUB RUGBY GAME EVER!

... so I bought Rugby Challenge and set it up myself.

So who won? What was the score??? WHAT WAS THE SCORE!

.ak

andrewdcs wrote: »

So who won? What was the score??? WHAT WAS THE SCORE!

I'll be keeping that to myself...

But lets just say I opened a few celebratory cans after the final whistle...

.ak

totallegend wrote: »

Obviously the Heineken Cup is more varied with the likes of the Scots and Italians dragging the average quality down, but if you put say the HC semi-finalists and the Super XV semi-finalists up against each other, I'd say it would be fairly even.

Can't say I agree totally with this. Under that logic the WC's average quality is down because of the minnows? Yes, but the top team generally wins out because it's knock out rugby, not a league.

There's a reason Toulouse, Leinster, Munster, Leicester and Saints are constantly at the finals considering the other talent that's there. Because they're very, very good. There is certainly lower seeded teams, but I think after all is said and done the finalists are very deserving and would be easily matches versus a SH finalist.

Fishooks12

.ak wrote: »

Can't say I agree totally with this. Under that logic the WC's average quality is down because of the minnows? Yes, but the top team generally wins out because it's knock out rugby, not a league.

There's a reason Toulouse, Leinster, Munster, Leicester and Saints are constantly at the finals considering the other talent that's there. Because they're very, very good. There is certainly lower seeded teams, but I think after all is said and done the finalists are very deserving and would be easily matches versus a SH finalist.

I agree, I don't think The Cheetahs or the Lions would batter the likes of Treviso or Ulster

totallegend

.ak wrote: »

Can't say I agree totally with this. Under that logic the WC's average quality is down because of the minnows? Yes, but the top team generally wins out because it's knock out rugby, not a league.

There's a reason Toulouse, Leinster, Munster, Leicester and Saints are constantly at the finals considering the other talent that's there. Because they're very, very good. There is certainly lower seeded teams, but I think after all is said and done the finalists are very deserving and would be easily matches versus a SH finalist.

Erm, ok. You do realise that you say you can't agree, but then go on to agree 100% with everything I said? In fact, you more or less repeated it verbatim...

matthew8

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I agree, I don't think The Cheetahs or the Lions would batter the likes of Treviso or Ulster

They would hammer Treviso and Ulster. They wouldn't be able to handle the attack.

I would say even the Currie Cup and ITM Cup teams would be a fair bit better than the Heineken cup teams. Leinster, Leicester, Toulouse, Northampton, Clermont and Saracens (due to their South African nature they could compete with the South African teams) would be able to compete in the super 15 due to their style of play.

Fishooks12

matthew8 wrote: »

They would hammer Treviso and Ulster. They wouldn't be able to handle the attack.

I would say even the Currie Cup and ITM Cup teams would be a fair bit better than the Heineken cup teams. Leinster, Leicester, Toulouse, Northampton, Clermont and Saracens (due to their South African nature they could compete with the South African teams) would be able to compete in the super 15 due to their style of play.

Don't think so, anyone watching super 15 knows that defence is barely non existent

I can imagine the Lions (who are a fairly average side even in attack) wouldn't be able to live with the physicality of Ulster

As for Currie cup sides being "a fair bit better" than the likes of Leicester, Northhampton and Toulouse, I find that astonishing given the far superior players playing in the HC as opposed to the Currie cup.

Can you imagine Leicester playing The Griquas, they'd easily rack up 30 points on them given the fact that they have a team of seasoned internationals as opposed to a team of journeyman SA pros

profitius

matthew8 wrote: »

They would hammer Treviso and Ulster. They wouldn't be able to handle the attack.

Dunno. Ulster like to play an open attacking game themselves. They have Trimble, iHumph, Cave, Spence, Gaston, Gilroy, Pienaar, D'Arcy and Jared Payne at the back.

I would say even the Currie Cup and ITM Cup teams would be a fair bit better than the Heineken cup teams. Leinster, Leicester, Toulouse, Northampton, Clermont and Saracens (due to their South African nature they could compete with the South African teams) would be able to compete in the super 15 due to their style of play.

In what way? Better skill? physicality? scrums? lineouts? defence??

Leinster are better than Super rugby champions the Queensland Reds IMO. Ireland beat Australia and add Nacewa, Strauss, Van Der Merwe etc to the mix. Leinster are on a par with Ireland.

We all saw Quade Cooper in Super rugby last season and he was very good. However in the world cup he struggled. HEC rugby is more like world cup rugby in a tactical sense. You see loads more drop goals and scrums are more important as well as better defences.

totallegend

profitius wrote: »

Leinster are better than Super rugby champions the Queensland Reds IMO. Ireland beat Australia and add Nacewa, Strauss, Van Der Merwe etc to the mix. Leinster are on a par with Ireland.

An important distinction here alright; the fact that the European teams are much more active in bringing in foreigners gives them a massive advantage. Take the champions from last year; The Reds had no non-Australian-eligible players AFAIK whereas Leinster had Nacewa, Hines and Strauss starting, all key players for them.

Fishooks12

totallegend wrote: »

An important distinction here alright; the fact that the European teams are much more active in bringing in foreigners gives them a massive advantage. Take the champions from last year; The Reds had no non-Australian eligible players AFAIK whereas Leinster had Nacewa, Hines, and Strauss starting, all key players for them.

Don't think it's a massive advantage, they're free to sign overseas players too but Australian has a huge population in comparison to Ireland so in turn they have a much bigger player base

If anything, Queensland would have the advantage

irishbucsfan

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Don't think it's a massive advantage, they're free to sign overseas players too but Australian has a huge population in comparison to Ireland so in turn they have a much bigger player base

If anything, Queensland would have the advantage

Rugby is not popular in Australia, they don't have a bigger player base, and only have a few more senior males. They also don't get the support that Irish teams do. It was hellish for me trying to follow rugby in Perth when their papers didn't bother with it at all during the footy season... I remember when Sailor was banned they were generous to donate about a paragraph to Union.

I think that it would be a fascinating game between Leinster/Reds, but I think Leinster would be more suited to grinding out a result. Cooper would definitely bottle it!

GerM

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Don't think it's a massive advantage, they're free to sign overseas players too but Australian has a huge population in comparison to Ireland so in turn they have a much bigger player base

They're not. They can sign one foreign player and can also have another player on the books who will one day be eligible for Australia.

Fishooks12

GerM wrote: »

They're not. They can sign one foreign player and can also have another player on the books who will one day be eligible for Australia.

Really? Didn't know that, excuse my ignorance

Did the Sharks not have an Australian scrumhalf the year Andy Goode was with them?

wonton

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Don't think so, anyone watching super 15 knows that defence is barely non existant

wait......what........I dont even

endabob1

I would equate Currie Cup with Celtic League & Super 15 with HC
The Cheetahs & Lions would be decent pool stage sides in the HC, but they wouldn't trouble the knock out stages, just like they don't in the S15

GerM

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Really? Didn't know that, excuse my ignorance

Did the Sharks not have an Australian scrumhalf the year Andy Goode was with them?

The different unions have different rules. Australia as mentioned above with the exception of the Rebels who can have 10 foreign players to start out with but must adhere to the standard rules by 2016. I think NZ teams are now allowed to sign 2 foreign players having previously been allowed no player that wouldn't be one day eligible for the national side. South Africa are the most lenient although I'm not sure their specific guidelines, if any, and they can also continue to select foreign based players which is against policy in NZ and Australia.

its_phil

Going on last years HC quarter finalists (based on seedings after group stages and Leinster beating Northampton in final) vs the top 8 in super XV (with Crusaders going 2nd on getting to final) here is how i think it would go at a neutral venue:

HC Super XV
Leinstervs Queensland Reds
Northampton vs Crusaders
Perpignan vs Stormers
Biarritz vs Blues
Toulouse vs Waratahs
Toulon vs Sharks
Leicester vs Bulls
Ulster vs Highlanders

Brendan97

It would be good to see a Heiniken Cup XV -v- Super 15 XV game every year or 2

it would also be cool to see an Aviva Premiership XV -v- RaboDirect Pro12 XV

.ak

Brendan97 wrote: »

It would be good to see a Heiniken Cup XV -v- Super 15 XV game every year or 2

it would also be cool to see an Aviva Premiership XV -v- RaboDirect Pro12 XV

That'd be awkwardly one sided for the RaboDirect gang imo. It'd be basically England playing Ireland/Wales.

Brendan97

.ak wrote: »

That'd be awkwardly one sided for the RaboDirect gang imo. It'd be basically England playing Ireland/Wales.

The aviva prem has imports aswell e.g castrogiavanni just as the rabodirect has ruan piennar etc.

Brendan97

Sorry for double post!


What about Aviva Premiership & Top 14 -v- RaboDirect Pro12
Created new thread for this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056423717#

CatFromHue

.ak wrote: »

That'd be awkwardly one sided for the RaboDirect gang imo. It'd be basically England playing Ireland/Wales.

I think it would be Ireland/Wales v The SANZAR Expats