Failure to produce driver's licence and insurance cert

robot owl

Hi,

I was stopped by the guards earlier in the year and didn't have my licence on me. I was a bit stressed out and upset at being stopped, the guard must have told me to produce insurance and licence within 10 days. I didn't hear him, I didn't do it.
A couple of weeks ago a summons arrived in the post. I panicked, went to local garda station with insurance and licence. The guard was really nice and reassuring, entered my details onto the system and told me to contact the guard who had issued the summons. I did that, he told me it'd be grand, I wouldn't need to go to court and that he'd call me back. He didn't. I called several times trying to speak to him again, and I finally got through on Saturday. He told me of course I'd have to go to court but that it'd be struck out.
I am in a job where I can't just take a day off or even a few hours without a lot of disruption.
Is there anything I can do to get out of going to court? It seems a waste of everyone's time.

ResearchWill

robot owl wrote: »

Hi,

I was stopped by the guards earlier in the year and didn't have my licence on me. I was a bit stressed out and upset at being stopped, the guard must have told me to produce insurance and licence within 10 days. I didn't hear him, I didn't do it.
A couple of weeks ago a summons arrived in the post. I panicked, went to local garda station with insurance and licence. The guard was really nice and reassuring, entered my details onto the system and told me to contact the guard who had issued the summons. I did that, he told me it'd be grand, I wouldn't need to go to court and that he'd call me back. He didn't. I called several times trying to speak to him again, and I finally got through on Saturday. He told me of course I'd have to go to court but that it'd be struck out.
I am in a job where I can't just take a day off or even a few hours without a lot of disruption.
Is there anything I can do to get out of going to court? It seems a waste of everyone's time.

Go to Court, or arrange a solicitor to go. If I had a euro for every time I had to arrange an appeal in these situations because a person thought it was all sorted and did not go to Court.

If you do not turn up and if the Garda forgets, then you will get a ban, if you do not appeal within the 14 days, the ban cannot be stayed by lodging late appeal.

robot owl

Thank you very much for your reply. I phoned a local solicitor who told me that it would cost 200euro to send someone, but that I could send a family member on my behalf. My husband has said he'll go for me. If he takes my licence and my insurance cert in with him, will this be OK?

jhegarty

I wouldn't risk my licenses for €220.

robot owl

According to the solicitor I spoke to, this is not a risk. She advised me to send a family member.

ResearchWill

jhegarty wrote: »

I wouldn't risk my licenses for €220.

I agree, at least if the Solicitor makes a mess of it he will have to fix it. If a family member goes to the wrong court or just does not know what to do. To be honest it is simple but the DC can be so busy unless you are used to it you can easily get it messed up.

Pay the money for peace of mind.

ResearchWill

robot owl wrote: »

Thank you very much for your reply. I phoned a local solicitor who told me that it would cost 200euro to send someone, but that I could send a family member on my behalf. My husband has said he'll go for me. If he takes my licence and my insurance cert in with him, will this be OK?

Yes it is ok, but tell your husband to remain in court until your case has been heard in full. See this is where things can go wrong, person turns up in court, chats to Garda, Garda dealing with 30 cases, says ya that's fine, person leaves court before case. Then case called inspector has not been told by Garda, no show for you, conviction.

Remember I have seen this happen, then the next thing you know it's 2 weeks later you are banned, and then it requires an application to DC to extend time for appeal, then racing around the Circuit trying to get the appeal on at the next sittings, then running the appeal. That will cost a fortune. It really is very important, to make sure it's done right.

robot owl

@Research Will Thanks again. Will do.

robot owl

Hi, just one more quick question..
I produced my documents when I received the summons. I called my local station tonight to ask if they could give me a letter to say that I had done this (albeit too late). The guard I was speaking to seemed to think that I couldn't send a family member on my behalf as the summons is made out to me. I cannot get out of work to go and I am a bit panicked about the entire thing. I don't want it all to go wrong. If my husband goes on my behalf with my documents etc, is he likely to get hassle from the guard and judge?

bath handle

robot owl wrote: »

Hi, just one more quick question..
I produced my documents when I received the sum mons. I called my local station tonight to ask if they could give me a letter to say that I had done this (albeit too late). The guard I was speaking to seemed to think that I couldn't send a family member on my behalf as the summons is made out to me. I cannot get out of work to go and I am a bit panicked about the entire thing. I don't want it all to go wrong. If my husband goes on my behalf with my documents etc, is he likely to get hassle from the guard and judge?

The first thing to do is meet the prosecuting guard with the documents.Go to the station when he is coming on duty and show him the documents. Make sure to meet the guard again in the courthouse and remind him about the case. If the guard isn't there, talk to the court presenter. Have the documents in court again. If, in the unlikely event the case is not struck out by the guards, tell the judge what happened.

robot owl

Is it definitely OK for my husband to attend on my behalf with my documents? I have repeatedly tried to contact the guard and left several messages, and haven't been able to speak to him.

coylemj

Yes it definitely is, it happens all the time - brother, sisters, mothers & fathers regularly approach the Gardai in the courts (before the judge arrives) to show documents.

robot owl

I called another solicitor (before I saw the above response) who told me that it'd be €650 to send him and that I'm definitely getting penalty points and a large fine.. And that under no circumstances can I send a family member..
So I am going in myself, serious disruption to work and a lot of sleepless nights. I know I should have presented my driver's licence and insurance cert within the 10 days, but god, I feel this is a lot of hassle. If they'd sent me a letter with a fine for not producing, I'd have paid it and produced.. Money would have been made by the gardai/whoever makes the money on fines and I would have been spared this. It seems an awful waste of time and money taking me to court to show my documents.

source

robot owl wrote: »

I called another solicitor (before I saw the above response) who told me that it'd be €650 to send him and that I'm definitely getting penalty points and a large fine.. And that under no circumstances can I send a family member..
So I am going in myself, serious disruption to work and a lot of sleepless nights. I know I should have presented my driver's licence and insurance cert within the 10 days, but god, I feel this is a lot of hassle. If they'd sent me a letter with a fine for not producing, I'd have paid it and produced.. Money would have been made by the gardai/whoever makes the money on fines and I would have been spared this. It seems an awful waste of time and money taking me to court to show my documents.

That's not how it works I'm afraid, there's no fixed charge penalty for not producing D/L or Insurance cert.

When you fail to produce it is taken that you don't have insurance or a Driving Licence, as such you're summonsed for not having them, for not producing them and for driving without them. All serious offences, this is why it's a summons straight to court.

Some judges will strike out if you produce the documents to the court, and some judges will strike out all but the failing to produce summonses and convict on that.

robot owl

Can I ask what a conviction for failing to produce would mean?

coylemj

robot owl wrote: »

Can I ask what a conviction for failing to produce would mean?

A fine of some sorts but no points or disqualification. As the earlier poster said, the failure to produce always kicks off summons for not actually having a licence and/or insurance which are the more serious charges.

Any solicitor who is looking €650 to attend court for a bread and butter case like yours is a greedy bastard and I wouldn't believe a word he says. You can send someone down to the court to show the Garda the documents and then that person should stay in the court to hear what happens when your case is called.

What he may have said to you and it's technically correct is that you cannot send a lay person to the courts to represent you in front of the judge but that may have been a smokescreen to put you off sending someone down just to show the documents to the Garda before the judge arrives, something which happens before every sitting of district courts which deal with traffic summons.

The Garda should tell the judge that he/she was approached before the court and shown documents and he/she is now satisfied that the defendant (you) did have a licence and insurance on the day. The judge might then impose a small fine for failing to produce but if he's in a good mood he may just strike them out or apply the Probation Act.

You've been making frantic efforts to contact the original Garda - why? Didn't you tell us that he has verified that you did eventually produce and that it will be ok? Officially he is not allowed to tell you to turn up but if he has said that he has verified that you did produce then the chances are that he will apply for the non-production summons to be struck out and offer no evidence on the no licence/no insurance summons.

robot owl

coylemj wrote: »

You've been making frantic efforts to contact the original Garda - why? Didn't you tell us that he has verified that you did eventually produce and that it will be ok? Officially he is not allowed to tell you to turn up but if he has said that he has verified that you did produce then the chances are that he will apply for the non-production summons to be struck out and offer no evidence on the no licence/no insurance summons.

I had called him the day I got the summons and he'd said he'd call me back to say I didn't need to go to court. No call back. I left it 5 days then tried again, left message no call back. This continued for about 2 weeks, then eventually I got him on the phone and he said that I of course had to go to court, but that it would be struck out.
I was trying to contact him this week to tell him that I was sending my husband. Also I am frantic as I have never in my life been in trouble and I'm actually sick to my stomach at the thought of court.

Thanks for all of your replies, I appreciate the info.

TylerIE

robot owl wrote: »

I called another solicitor (before I saw the above response) who told me that it'd be €650 to send him and that I'm definitely getting penalty points and a large fine.. And that under no circumstances can I send a family member..
So I am going in myself, serious disruption to work and a lot of sleepless nights. I know I should have presented my driver's licence and insurance cert within the 10 days, but god, I feel this is a lot of hassle. If they'd sent me a letter with a fine for not producing, I'd have paid it and produced.. Money would have been made by the gardai/whoever makes the money on fines and I would have been spared this. It seems an awful waste of time and money taking me to court to show my documents.

I know you realise it but the waste of time is the fact that people dont produce within the ten days. Many guards will accept even a few days after that. If the person fails to do so the Guard has to arrange a summons and arrange its delivery, then subsequently attend court. The driver then has to present their license anyway, and attend the court, so they may as well have done so initially!

Its hassle for them to go to court - possibly on a day off for them, and takes them away from other duties when they are grossly short staffed.

Please note its not having a go - its just the other side of the coin for people in a similar position.

The Gardai make no money from fines.

Ken.

It could be said the reason behind bringing you to court is that the next time your stopped and told to produce you won't forget this experience for a long long time and will be at the garda station within 10 mins never mind 10 days.

robot owl

@coylemj
Thank you for all of the info, I went to court and it was struck out.

deadwood

robot owl wrote: »

@coylemj
Thank you for all of the info, I went to court and it was struck out.

Glad it worked out for you.

If I can just add a note here, and this has nothing to do with this particular case.

A few posters advised that it was ok for the o.p. not to turn up, but to send a family member/friend.
The summons named the o.p., not "...and/or a family member if you can't get off work."

I would never advise somebody to disregard a summons, even if I was confident the matter would be struck out. Some judges take a very dim view of Gardai and solicitors telling clients they don't have to turn up, even if everything is in order. (Despite our views on savings in time and money to the courts)

In a case like this, a guard will tell a person they have to turn up and obey the summons. They will also note that everything is in order and (probably) look for the matter to be struck out.

If a solicitor tells a client not to turn up, they do so knowing the areas judge and how she/he will view this practice. Some judges have a more practical approach than others, but I would never presume. I'd say the practice can be roughly divided between and beyond the pale.
inside

In practice, a guard, being satisfied with documentation, can ask for a strikeout. I have seen judges ask if the person named was in court and then ask questions as to the authority of a mere guard to dismiss a case. Bench warrants and adjournments have been issued to ensure compliance.

coylemj

+1 to the above, that's why nowadays Gardai never tell people that they don't have to turn up but the reality is that sending a family member or friend to meet the Garda before the judge arrives will do the business as proved by the OP's case which had a satisfactory conclusion this morning.

The family member doesn't have to make themselves known to the judge, all they are doing is showing the Garda the documentation which then places a responsibility on him to inform the judge that he is now satisfied that the defendant was covered on the day and so the judge can at that stage only convict for non-production which they hardly ever do as the Gardai usually ask for a strike out.

Paying a solicitor to represent you or taking a day off work is just not necessary if you do it right which thankfully the OP did on our advice.

deadwood

coylemj wrote: »

+1 to the above, that's why nowadays Gardai never tell people that they don't have to turn up but the reality is that sending a family member or friend to meet the Garda before the judge arrives will do the business as proved by the OP's case which had a satisfactory conclusion this morning.

The family member doesn't have to make themselves known to the judge, all they are doing is showing the Garda the documentation which then places a responsibility on him to inform the judge that he is now satisfied that the defendant was covered on the day and so the judge can at that stage only convict for non-production which they hardly ever do as the Gardai usually ask for a strike out.

Yes, in practice, but often, depending on the judge, the first question they will ask is "Is Mr. Offender in court?"