My experience at the CrossFit Level 1 Cert

Hanley

Talking about my pizza
I’ve just ordered a pizza, so I’m writing ‘til that comes, and then I’ll come back to it…

The obligatory qualification
**I want to open this with the qualification that this is what I took away from the CF L1 cert this weekend in The Unit, CF NI. I’m not saying this is what CrossFit “is” , stands for, or what was taught – but it was my experience.

Complaining about early mornings and the Belfast traffic system
After a 5am rise and 20 minutes of tearing my hair out due to Belfast’s moronic one way system, I arrived to warm hellos at CF NI. As expected, I knew someone there, but there was a room full of 31 other participants to get to know.

The intro & what is CrossFit
Karl Steadman, one of the European HQ cert staff and lead instructor for the weekend opened with a quick intro and outline of what was going to happen. Ran us thru “what is CrossFit” (constantly varied functional movements executed at a high intensity) and then told us what it all meant….

We got a good outline of the importance of relative intensity and later on during the programming lecture were reminded of the importance of scaling effectively to maintain the intended workout stimulus – that essentially everyone should be able to get the same thing out of a workout, just by working at a level appropriate to them (while still hauling ass).

CF wants people to “be better at life” thru a broad, general and inclusive fitness program. The theory being that since we fail at the margins of our experience, we should work on widening our competencies and getting better at the stuff we suck at.

The 9 foundational movements
The movement progressions we were shown was:
squat > front squat > overhead squat
press > push press > push jerk
deadlift > SDHP > med ball clean

I’m not going to labour too much on them since this is mostly a summation for my own purposes, but I want to note how slick the presentations were. For all movement standards it was a description and visual demo of the movement, the points of performances and then the WCGWs.

The big take away was that all the movements broadly included the same things – midline stablisation, force was applied from core to extremity, they were heel driven, had active shoulders where relevant and were done thru a full ROM. The big emphasis on the weekend was that when coaching, there are two things that can NEVER be compromised – safety and full range of movement.

What is fitness? incl. "The Hopper" and metabolic pathways
The movement lectures were broken up by one on the 4 models CF use re: fitness, and a lunch break.

The “what is fitness” lecture was interesting enough, Karl talked to us about CFs 10 general physical skills, how 4 of them are “trainable” in the sense they are physiological adaptation, 4 are “practice” dependent in the sense that they’re more neurological and that the final 2 are what happens when the other 8 get it on – power and speed are produced. I thought it was a really good general overview of the training –v- practice thing I always bleet on about.

We talked about “The Hopper” and how the goal of CF was to build work capacity against broad time and modal domains, so that regardless of what came out of it, you’d be relatively proficient. During the weekend, and from chats with the team over the course of it, they were happy to point out that it’s not the ideal method for sports or specific training – that by its very nature it’s a GPP program and should be considered as such. It was really refreshing to hear because I’m so used to die hard CF cultists acting like it’s the cure for everything.

He gave us a quick run thru of the 3 main metabolic pathways – ATP-CP, glycolytic and oxidative and how CF concentrates mainly on the glycolytic when working with metcons as they feel it’s the one that the biggest overall gain can be made it. Made a lot of sense to me from my own reading around the topic. He also mentioned something about a fourth one, the brooks pathway, which I’m now going to have to go and find out about.

Discussed the sickness/wellness/fitness continumn and how (within reason) you always wanted to work towards increased fitness as the best predictor of general health. I’m reasonably sure this was in the context of a GPP sense, as the pursuit of truly elite fitness in any sport is a pretty unhealthy affair!

Dropping a WOD
That was pretty much the end of our day… and then came our “treat”…

4 man team, 40kg BB – 250 thrusters + 250 pull ups, for time (task orientated ya know!). Horrible right? Well the kicker was the bar couldn’t touch the floor or we all got 25 burpees each before continuing. So 2 dudes had to act like a rack each time. Our team finished first with a time of 19.08 – it was pretty brutal. Then a few beers, a quick chat and back for food and sleep.

My breakfast (it was delicious, thanks)
Day 2 started with a f*cking HYOOOGE breakfast and a good helping of coffee. Thankfully the DOMS hadn’t the time to kick in at that point, they wait til about 4pm.

Technique -v- Intensity, and Threshold Training
We kicked off day 2 with a lecture on technique versus intensity, the end point was that increased intensity (ie doing more work quicker) was a result of good technique and the ability to do stuff as efficiently as possible to utilize the strongest movers in the most efficient manner. We talked a lot about how threshold training and how you want to push people to the point where their form starts to break down, before bringing them back slightly and tightening things up, and repeating the process over and over – this is what I think CF “slop” is. It’s a concept I never really got, but right now I think I understand it a bit better.

Relative Intensity
He also made the point that for a rank beginner, just working your ass off to learn the basic movements can be intense enough. I’d consider myself relatively well conditioned, and after 2 days of it I can see why he said it. When it came to assessing how good a program is, the basic questions were to ask:
-is it safe?
-what does it get you? (efficacy)
-how fast do you get it? (efficiency)

You don’t want to be 100% safe cos it retards progress, but you don’t want to be wreckless either. Sh*t will happen, stuff you can’t legislate for, but the key is to minimize that risk while maximizing the speed at which favourable adaptations can occur. Stimulus is the goal, but that’ll look different and be on different levels for everyone – sometimes you just have to get folks being comfortable with being uncomfortable.

Nutrition is like religion and politics
Jami’s nutrition lecture was really interesting. First thing he said was that he wasn't out to change anyones mind, or say you HAVE to do this, just to think about what's being presented and decide for yourself - I liked that. Ironically I’m starting to fade cos my pizza still ain’t here (I broke and ordered a coke and some cookies too) but I’ll persevere – essentially, the CF prescription (paraphrased) is “eat meat and vegtables, nuts and seeds, fruit, little starch, and no sugar”. He summed it up as “eat real food” – nice eh?

We got to talking about the CF pyramid thing, the name escapes me, but basically on the bottom was nutrition – and everything is built off of that. Food is viewed as fuel (which is something I’ve been doing for a while anyway), but the main consideration to be concerned with is “how does my body produce fuel from this food” – which opens the door to the whole area of hormonal response, insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome and a whole host of other things. I’m actually going to write about this separately because it’s the area I considered my weakest in knowledge and application terms, but right now I’m going to go after a MASSIVE insulin spike because my sugary, starchy goodness just arrived…. NYOM.

BEGIN PIZZA & COOKIES BREAK

9.50pm - to be continued, all questions/clarifications welcome

10.05pm – right, all gone.

END PIZZA & COOKIES BREAK

Continuing on – the pyramid yoke I was talking about above – “theoretical hierarchy of fitness”, thank you Colm.

highway to the dangerZONE
We talked about the zone, and how it many not be applicable to everyone. That you really need to go for it, see how it works, and then start to tweak things to make it more individual specific. I was pretty happy hearing that because I REALLY don’t like the zone rxs. I just think they’re unrealistically low, and if you were to eat the ratios (40/30/30 c/p/f) you’d struggle to get the carbs in eating clean, and the protein is way too low. ANYWAY… the key points were that you need to watch the quantitiy AND quality of your food, avoid excess carbs, avoid inflammation and avoid anything liable to create an autoimmune response. He have us a lot of places to look for more info which I’ll outline in my “nutrition” post.

WODs up? (and how to run a class)
And then it was WOD 2 time…. Time orientated this time…. 7 minute AMRAP, 7x med ball cleans (I actually want to do a separate post on this too, randomly), 50m run, 7 push ups, 50m run – I got 7 rounds + cleans + 50m. During all of this Jami took us like it was a real class – told us about warming up, mobilization, relevant skillz practice, performing the WOD itself and depending on what that was, how you could do other stuff afterwards like stretching, more skillz work, a “challenge” like farmers walks/max pull ups etc etc… something to get people competing and pushing harder. And also the importance of checking on clients to see where they’re at in regards the stimulus they’re feeling, how they think they’re performing etc etc.

How to cheat on your pull ups
Then back inside to learn kipping pull ups with Karl – the key points being that if they don’t display correct tissue control (and ideally at least one strict pull up) they’ve no place swinging about on the bar cos they’re probably only going to hurt themselves. The progression as thought was:
1) kip swing using hands as target (feet tight and point, be able to stop dead in the middle if cued)
2) pull the knees up on the back swing/high knees/created hip angle
3) get on the floor, extend the arms, tuck the knee, ass on the floor, drive the hip up and land in like a bridge with the hip full open
4) get on the bar and try to string it all together
5) at the top, push AWAY to initiate the next rep, preserving the swing (dropping straight down = stopping dead)

Essentially the kip should be a perfect mimic of itself whether looked at straight on or in reverse. I was string reps together decently well, but am still cautious about how my shoulder will hold up to it.

The functional 6 pack ( imo, this it's function is getting lots of girls, fast, and frequently - ie constantly varied & high intensity)
Hit up GHR (it’s a f*cking glute ham raise machine, not a glute ham developer. Dammit it I’ve spent most of my training career as a powerlifter and I’m going to keep calling it that!) sit ups and their progressions after that, and I just realized this post is going to become unreadably long and I’ll need to go back and edit in headers and sections to break it up a bit. Maybe some pictures to keep the idiots interested. Anyway, there’s 2 primary movements it’s used for – flexion and extension.

The extension series was:
1) GHR hip extension (dynamic hip)
2) GHR back extension (flexing spine and restablishing lumbar arch)
3) GHR hip & back ex. (round back, flex hip, extend back, extend hip [which flexes back], extend back)

The flexion series was:
1) ab mat sit up
2) GHR sit up using hands to block ROM and spot
3) GHR sit up getting them to increse ROM

The main keys on points of performance were to aggressively straight the legs on the way up to engage the rectus femoris and lock down the spine rather than having flexion occur, and only going as far as you can before hyper extending your back. He then went on to show us a basic progression, and that he’d only move people to the next level when they could do 25 reps at each of the levels above.

How else would you get from below the rings to above?
Anyway moving on, muscle ups – as anyone who reads my log, or is on my FB knows, I got my first muscle ups a few weeks ago after watching some Jeff Tucker tutorial vids, so I’d learned the progressions and once I got the movement down, they were pretty easy. So Karl showed us the progressions….

1) support spotting the guy by the arms (not the rings, and from the side so you don’t get kicked in the junk)
2) controlled deep ass negative dip, and come up if you can
3) learn false grip (hands thru the rings, on the wrists, bring thumbs in)
4) close the knuckles, bring the rings tight to the chest, tuck the elbows, lean back to extend arms, deep pull w/ elbows to floor, head goes straight thru and you’re in the bottom of a deep dip
5) whip your feet up, if you remain balanced, your’e in the right position
6) do a muscle up

How to nearly fall from 8 feet up
I ended up giving one a crack from full extension w/ turnout at the bottom and got it nicely, and then tried to turnout at the top as well and it all went pear shaped. It was NOT a movement I’d prepared for and probably shouldn’t have tried it bout 8 feet up for the first time. Whoops.

Got my hands on a snatch over the weekend
We learned how to snatch as well somewhere along the way. It was essentially done using the Burgener warm up, and a pvc pipe just in front of the persons bar to prevent it looping out (and make them aware when it does). But it’s a snatch, and I know what that is. So I’m not going to labour on it. If anyone cares –ask me to expand. And be specific cos I’m not talking about it again otherwise. Me and the snatch have history. And it ain’t good.

Programming ...wait, there actually IS structure to CrossFit?!??!
Finally, we come to my favourite lecture of the entire weekend – Programming.

Now, in the spirit of full and open disclosure, I tend to scratch my head and look like a monkey doing sums when I try to decipher CF programming. I’ve learned a lot from Will Heffernan (who’s going to **** the bed seeing his name in what is essentially a CF article) and Mike Boyle when it comes to program design – mainly programming according to bodily function (hip and knee extension, upper body pushing and pulling in 2 planes). So I’ve always considerd the CF style haphazard and silly – unknown and unknowable right?

Anyway, Karl opened my eyes today. I’d looked at some of the named WODs before and seen an element of structure similar to the above before (Fran, Helen, Cindy etc) – but he emphasized the importance of having that structure in general, since you’re TRAINING, but tha every now and again just deviating and doing something at odds with it won’t really matter once you’re getting it right most of the time, basically just avoiding routine.

As mentioned earlier, CF is about constantly varied workouts, using functional movements, executed at a high intensity…. And we look at all 3 elements individually. The variance is essentially GPP, but it’s not a random collection of stuff - it’s structured to cover as many movement, load, time, domain, equipment and envoirnmnet variables as possible, while still having an underlying structure/guidleine, tho most of the work is done in the glycolctic range.

The high intensity element is the threshold concept mentioned earlier – that you work at a relatively high intensity with sound mechanics and consistency good movement, and then step it up a bit to see what happens…

The “functional” movements are weight lifting, gymnastics and monstructural un nature. The emphasis being that if you can’t do the gymnastics/bodyweight stuff first, you’ve no right to try and move external load because any issues are only going to get worse from there under weight. It’s important to avoid heavily eccentric dominany movements with newbie’s cos of the Rhabdo risk (we actually talked about this during the warm up for the team workout on day 1).

Random emphasis area to try and keep your attention - I already told you it was my favourite part and I'm almost there, so deal with the length giggidy

Within the workouts, you should always be looking to scale it as appropriate so that your athlete gets the intended stimulus, just not so that they can finish first and “win” the WOD. The main scale modalities are reducing reps and time, modifying/substituting the movement and changing the weights. During both of our WODs this was shown to us wit the coaches modifying them to suit everyone, and bringing us all in around the same time/rounds. But obviously the guys doing it RX’d are far more bad ass super cool rockstars. I did it all as RX’d, in case you were wondering.

As a basic theory, you want to use primarily triplets and couplets, a heavy day every 3-4 WODs (5-10 sets of 1-5 reps, with either constant weight or working to RMs) and a chipper every now and again to just make sure you’re capable in that time domain. Obviously that prevents problems if you’ve only people training on certain days but if you’re presenting a balanced program, it should all work itself out over time. Oh, and “complementary movement patterns” – that’s the whole pushing and pulling thing again.

Ideally you want to avoid an over exposure to light/bodyweight workouts, a lack of strength days, biasing strengths, skipping gymnastics, mistaking “varied” for “random” and not having adequate bench marks.

The bench mark thing was something I was glad to hear – I remember the old IP “If you’re not assessing, you’re guessing” so I definitely think you need checks and balances which you use intermittedly to asses how effective your programming actually is.

Finally, before the test and wrap up we’d a really quick talk about CF programming and sport – the core point being, more CF in the off season, more sport during the season, and vice versa. Simple, obvious and bloody clever.

Me fail test?
The test – I’m gonna be srsly p*ssed if after writing all of this I fail. Some of the questions were outrageously poorly worded, but that’s the nature of the beast. Should find out soon enough anyway.

How to join the cult
At the close, we were given an instructional on what to do:
-train others
-work with other coaches (and rob the goods stuff they do)
-read the journal
-check out .com
-look at specialist seminars and the coaches prep course
-sit tight for the L2, which sounds like it’s gonna be spicy (managed to fit it in, Karl!!)

Being American
Then we did some chest pumping, a few high 5’s and a big motherf*cking HELL YEAH in true American style…. After the dignified and polite European handshake.

...they were all assholes really
So, I’d a frickin’ cracking time, learned a hell of a lot about CF and coaching in general, picked up a lot of great tips and a much better understanding of what it’s all about. As I said on my FB to someone a short while ago, learning about CF straight from the horses mouth is entirely different to talking to someone about what their impression of it is (which is basically what you’ve just done!!). Definitely a worthwhile experience which I wouldn’t hesitate to an open minded educated individual. I probably wouldn’t START with an L1 if it’s your first exposure to training, mostly because it can be very easy to sit back and accept what’s being said without challenging it and thinking independently, but it’s definitely something that will add to your understanding of the field in general.

…overall an absolutely cracking weekend, I learned a hell of a lot, got a crappy t-shirt, had my faith restored in what I thought CF should be (or should I say CF is actually what I thought it always should be, its just peoples application of it was off). I still think SDHPs are retarded, and will never agree that a cashew should be classed as a carb based food, but hey, considering everything else I got out of the weekend, I can live with that.


I didn't even bother proofing this cos...
-11.08pm and over 3,400 words later....ok so this is absolutely unreadably long, let me go back and edit in some headers and stuff

If you got this far, I both applaud and pity you. Surely there was a more productive use of your time??

Questions, comments, etc etc... Lets hear em. And for once, lets try to keep the CF bashing for bashings sake to a minimum. I think I'm in a fairly unique position in that I've come thru a lot of different training methodologies, learned from some great people and coaches and have a pretty holistic view of the whole training process, and can kind of integrate where CF fits in with all of that. So if you've some myth or issue ya want tackled, shout it out and I'll give you my views.



EDIT: I lost count of the amount of spelling and grammatical errors in here, but right now, I honestly do not care (that's a lie, I care a little bit - but I'm so tired it'll do). I might come back and re-read this all tomorrow, I might not. I'll probably edit if I do. But then again I mighn't. But it's my post, so if you're not happy - bite me.

Transform

write ups like this are a great way to clarify what you have learned so keep it up while its still fresh

Barry.Oglesby

What about the chanting? Tell us about the chanting.

Gummy Panda

The most important question...

What was on the pizza?

Hanley

....longest post in the history of boards? Possibly.

I better go edit it to make it readable now.

Hanley

...hmmm, after all that, it's still pretty long (giggidy - I definitely spent too much time listening to Karl Steadman this weekend)

the drifter

they didnt cover smolov?

Hanley

the drifter wrote: »

they didnt cover smolov?

No, but Jami did do a 10x3 set of squats at lunch time!!

The Guvnor

Belfast has a one way system? Expand.:D

Barry.Oglesby

Was Tom Cruise there?

columok

Did you learn anything about how CF addresses strength imbalances. Not having individualised programmes is disastrous in my eyes. At the rates most affiliates charge, turning up and doing what everyone else does is particularly stupid.

I'd be of the belief that it's entirely possible to do Crossfit well. It's just a matter of application. (It probably wouldn't be crossfit). There is a good case for 70% personalised programme and 30% high intensity work. The 30% though would be made of movements with low injury risk and technical component. Does any affiliate in Ireland do this?

Zamboni

I bet you were the hang loose hand signal guy in the group photo?
There is always one.

Hanley

columok wrote: »

Did you learn anything about how CF addresses strength imbalances. Not having individualised programmes is disastrous in my eyes. At the rates most affiliates charge, turning up and doing what everyone else does is particularly stupid.

That's what scaling is all about. New movements and skill work should be addressed prior to WODs to ensure everyone's proficiency. If they can't be cue'd or coached out of whatevr issue they have, the WOD gets modified to their needs while preserving the stimulus.

So for example you're supposed to thruster, but have a should issue - so you front squat. Or you've a knee/hip issue - so you push press.

What actually happens in practice probably doesn't tie in with that, but then it's on the individual coaches, cos it is something they're taught about but aren't able to implement due to a lack of exp. Which is a big reason why I said what I did about it not being a great first choice course if you intend coaching folk.

They also directed us to the Brand X site to review the 4 daily scaling options and get a feel for how it works. Jami even described to us a "grandma Fran" for your wheelchair bound Nan - it was at that point that I realized CF might actually be worth believing the hype on. If done as intended.

So, in true CF L1 style, "does that make sense?"

I'd be of the belief that it's entirely possible to do Crossfit well. It's just a matter of application. (It probably wouldn't be crossfit). There is a good case for 70% personalised programme and 30% high intensity work. The 30% though would be made of movements with low injury risk and technical component. Does any affiliate in Ireland do this?

I tend to agree with you on how i'd like to see it implemented, but then that may not be "true" CrossFit. The ability to do the technical stuff while moving quickly and tired is what threshold training is all about - but a client should never be in a position where they're forced to cycle quickly thru lifts they can't maintain rep quality on, it was explained as "mechanics+consistency=intensity" - so they only up their work rate when they show sufficient capability from a technical standpoint, and then you push em til it starts to breakdown a little, then pull em back, and do it all over again.

I'm one of the biggest CF skeptics out there and wanted to see whether all the stupid stuff you see done is a product of individual boxes or just something they don't address when being trained, but by and large all my concerns were addressed during the weekend

As I said - happy to answer any genuine enquiries once they not attacks for attacks sake. And if they are, at least phrase them in a bit of bubblewrap

Zamboni

Hanley wrote: »

As I said - happy to answer any genuine enquiries once they not attacks for attacks sake. And if they are, at least phrase them in a bit of bubblewrap

Did everybody on the course have some form of coaching background Hanley?

My main problem with the CF L1 is that it is really a 'sell cheap, sell to many' course.
The advertise it as a cert which will enable you to coach CF upon completion.
I think a two days session is simply far too short to acheive this.
HQ run the CF L1 as a pyramid scheme to bring in income and boost potential affiliate (licence paying) numbers to the detriment of a serious academic/practical course.
This results in inadequately trained individuals setting up commerical facilities and calling themselves a coach which is a dangerous prospect imo.
There should be some form of a minimum requirment for the course but they won't do that as it would reduce their market and therefore profit margin.

columok

Hanley wrote: »

That's what scaling is all about. New movements and skill work should be addressed prior to WODs to ensure everyone's proficiency. If they can't be cue'd or coached out of whatevr issue they have, the WOD gets modified to their needs while preserving the stimulus.

So for example you're supposed to thruster, but have a should issue - so you front squat. Or you've a knee/hip issue - so you push press.

What actually happens in practice probably doesn't tie in with that, but then it's on the individual coaches, cos it is something they're taught about but aren't able to implement due to a lack of exp. Which is a big reason why I said what I did about it not being a great first choice course if you intend coaching folk.

I don't see CF in theory or in practice identifying issues that people have (say middle back weakness) and then having any answer to said weakness. In theory the best of it could be plucked out ie high intensity, fun, group scenario and combined with sensible individualised programming. I fail to see where CF has ANY advantage over a sensibly composed S&C programme.

As an organisation they have shaken off the sensible (John, Wolf, OPT) and gone further and further towards crazy-town over the last few years. There are no doubt sensible well-meaning affiliates out there and you probably met a few at the weekend. Nonetheless I can't see how CF is a good methodology for people beyond their first 9-12 months of training. Especially if you a) Make it mostly about the daily WOD b) Charge the amount usually charged c) Poo-poo isolation work d) Require everything to be done in an hour.

There is something to be learned from CF. The minute you start implementing it sensibly- its arguably no longer CF.

Hanley

Zamboni wrote: »

Did everybody on the course have some form of coaching background Hanley?

Nope.

My main problem with the CF L1 is that it is really a 'sell cheap, sell to many' course.
The advertise it as a cert which will enable you to coach CF upon completion.
I think a two days session is simply far too short to acheive this.

I agree. Essentially anyone could walk in with NO training background or sound movement awareness, or a coaching eye, pass the test and be "qualified". It's something that irks me a lot and while it spreads the CF word, it dilutes the quality that should be associated with it. That being said, I'd argue that "technically" you're not supposed to call it CrossFit if you're using it to sel your services as a trainer, as part of the license agreement. But affiliation is only a cheque away so my argument doesn't really stand.

THat being said, the new L2 structure sounds VERY exciting.

HQ run the CF L1 as a pyramid scheme to bring in income and boost potential affiliate (licence paying) numbers to the detriment of a serious academic/practical course.

This results in inadequately trained individuals setting up commerical facilities and calling themselves a coach which is a dangerous prospect imo.
There should be some form of a minimum requirment for the course but they won't do that as it would reduce their market and therefore profit margin.

Agree for the most part tbh. I'd like to see some practical/coaching assessment as part of it, and they seem to have recognised the need for it because they'l both be components of the revised L2 program, but that doesn't really address the bottom level eh?

Hanley

columok wrote: »

I don't see CF in theory or in practice identifying issues that people have (say middle back weakness) and then having any answer to said weakness.

My thoracic extensors were absolutely toasted from all the active shoulder work we were doing after the weekend. I remember thinking at the mid way point "hmmm... maybe there's an element of scapular retraction training inherent in the program" - but that could just be because I'm aware of its importance. Like if you're doing pull ups and OH squats right, you can't help but do that.

During our squat coaching session we ran thru air squats > front squat > OH squat. The air squat involved lots of wall squats with our hands against a wall and straight arms to promote thoracic extension, and that was before moving onto the coaching cues for high elbows in the front squat, and active shoulders in the OH squat (both of which included significant work on those elements too).

In theory the best of it could be plucked out ie high intensity, fun, group scenario and combined with sensible individualised programming. I fail to see where CF has ANY advantage over a sensibly composed S&C programme.

How many sensibly composed S&C programs are there in Ireland available to the general public? After the closure of IP, I'd argue that outside of what CF are doing, there's none.

As an organisation they have shaken off the sensible (John, Wolf, OPT) and gone further and further towards crazy-town over the last few years. There are no doubt sensible well-meaning affiliates out there and you probably met a few at the weekend.

Well potentially there's the other side of things. Karl's been involved in CF over 8 years and brought the certification process to the UK so he obviously knows what he's doing, and Jami is by all accounts a bit of a genius when it comes to movement (he's Annie T's head coach), so maybe I just got lucky in experiencing the best of what the European coaching staff had to offer. And if that's the case, super - I got to see what CF should really be. But then we're back to the quality control issue again!

Nonetheless I can't see how CF is a good methodology for people beyond their first 9-12 months of training. Especially if you a) Make it mostly about the daily WOD b) Charge the amount usually charged c) Poo-poo isolation work d) Require everything to be done in an hour.

Crossfit to me (..which may not be what CF actually "is") is a theoretical basis for general fitness - getting normal every day folk doing stuff they wouldn't normally do (work hard thru a full ROM w/ compound movements). I don't necessarily think it's something you should use form an athletic standpoint, so I don't necessarily agree with the S&C argument, it's more of a training program for people who just want to train.

THe idea should be that the WOD is the end result of the technical skills you've been learning, so your med ball clean/snatch/kipping pull up/whatever should be so solid, and have been worked so hard that you can tear thru the WODs at a super high intensity getting more work done faster. Developing that level of motor control isn't something that can be achieved in that sort of time period imo, esp for rank beginners w/ movement dysfunction.

re: b) some people just have the money and are a happy to pay it.. I've spent more on a night out than the avergae CF monthly gym membership like

re: c) they made the point that sometimes you need to work on specific things, and that the rest day can be used as "a break from scheduled programming" so you can use it for whatever you want essentially - but again I've the perspective to realise that can be used for exactly what you're suggesting, while those with no experience may just poo-poo all forms of isolation as a matter of course because the coaches said so.

re: d) mneh.... I don't think this is much of an issue tbh unless you're training for something specific, but then, that wouldn't be CF would it?
There is something to be learned from CF. The minute you start implementing it sensibly- its arguably no longer CF.[/QUOTE]

Barry.Oglesby

It seems to me that price is a silly argument to make. If the market supports €100-€120 per month prices then obviously it is priced okay.

What about John Travolta? Hanley, was Travolta there?

columok

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

It seems to me that price is a silly argument to make. If the market supports €100-€120 per month prices then obviously it is priced okay.

100-120? Decent value for a CF affiliate. Try 140-200!

Value is my point rather than price. If people pay 200 quid a month their training should be tailored to get the best out of them!

Hanley

columok wrote: »

100-120? Decent value for a CF affiliate. Try 140-200!

Value is my point rather than price. If people pay 200 quid a month their training should be tailored to get the best out of them!

I think the pricing is moot. If people continue to pay it, they see value. Your perception of value is not theirs.

The Davestator

Hanley wrote: »

I think the pricing is moot. If people continue to pay it, they see value. Your perception of value is not theirs.

Ben Dunne has runined people's view of value in this industry. Just because its not €150 for the year, does not make it expensive.

d'Oracle

I can spend more than my monthly gym fees on a quiet night in watching telly with a take away and 2 beers.

columok

The Davestator wrote: »

Ben Dunne has runined people's view of value in this industry. Just because its not €150 for the year, does not make it expensive.

This is a bit of a strawman argument. My issue isn't that €140-€200 a month isn't €140-€200 a year. My issue is that for €200 a month (ie €2400 a year after tax which is a substantial portion of the average industrial wage) you should be getting personalised programming to suit your goals and measurement of same. If a CF affiliate did that I would be very impressed!

Hanley

columok wrote: »

This is a bit of a strawman argument. My issue isn't that €140-€200 a month isn't €140-€200 a year. My issue is that for €200 a month (ie €2400 a year after tax which is a substantial portion of the average industrial wage) you should be getting personalised programming to suit your goals and measurement of same. If a CF affiliate did that I would be very impressed!

If you want fully customised programming and coaching every session, go to a personal trainer and give them 50-80 bucks a session. Simples.

columok

Hanley wrote: »

If you want fully customised programming and coaching every session, go to a personal trainer and give them 50-80 bucks a session. Simples.

A fully customised programme doesn't mean constant supervision. Say a 2 monthly review with testing would be easy to implement. You come along to the class. Maybe there are say 4 compound movements that people break up into groups to do (deads, squats, presses) then maybe a movement or two of assistance stuff based on your specific weaknesses. Then a group work intensive metcon at the end.

Customised programming isn't some kind of binary true/false. It can be accommodated in a group setting!

Hanley

columok wrote: »

A fully customised programme doesn't mean constant supervision. Say a 2 monthly review with testing would be easy to implement. You come along to the class. Maybe there are say 4 compound movements that people break up into groups to do (deads, squats, presses) then maybe a movement or two of assistance stuff based on your specific weaknesses. Then a group work intensive metcon at the end.

Customised programming isn't some kind of binary true/false. It can be accommodated in a group setting!

Ok and how do you coach that then? Trying to coach 3-4 groups of varying capability doing different movements within a class setting on your own is a HUGE challenge.

In my limited experience of having 1 group do squats and a single person do box squats, you realise pretty rapidly it's a very difficult scenario to manage.

THe benefit of having one main movement daily is that the coaching points apply to all.

columok

Hanley wrote: »

Ok and how do you coach that then? Trying to coach 3-4 groups of varying capability doing different movements within a class setting on your own is a HUGE challenge.

In my limited experience of having 1 group do squats and a single person do box squats, you realise pretty rapidly it's a very difficult scenario to manage.

THe benefit of having one main movement daily is that the coaching points apply to all.

Implementing CF is not really my job. That's the job for a CF coach. I don't believe people after X number of months need constant supervision. They seem to be managing in ECB, Hercs, Ironside etc. Just because something is easier for the coach doesn't mean its best for the client! CFI had a clever split (Mon-Thurs Squat, Press, Squat Deads) and even that had major drawbacks (ie squatting twice in a month sometimes). Even if you had two lifts in a class you give people the opportunity to work on a particular weakness for X number of weeks!

gavtron

great post Hanley, will give it a thorough read later, for now i'm going to look at the picture and imagine what your pizza was like.

Hanley

columok wrote: »

Implementing CF is not really my job. That's the job for a CF coach.

Maybe they've implemented it in the most efficient manner possible so? Or what they feel is the best based off their experience.

I don't believe people after X number of months need constant supervision. They seem to be managing in ECB, Hercs, Ironside etc.

The pool of people training those locations probably sums to less than 3/4 of CFIs members. When I trained in Hercs most sessions either had a senior lifter or coach present, I'd imagine ECB is much the same. Irsondie, I don't know what goes on in there but I wouldn't hold it up as programming perfection.

Just because something is easier for the coach doesn't mean its best for the client! CFI had a clever split (Mon-Thurs Squat, Press, Squat Deads) and even that had major drawbacks (ie squatting twice in a month sometimes). Even if you had two lifts in a class you give people the opportunity to work on a particular weakness for X number of weeks!

See now you're just dragging it towards personal experiences. I was pretty clear at the start of the thread that I wanted it to be about CFs methodologies rather than how individual affiliates apply them.

Black Sheep

I've met Karl Steadman a couple of times and I do think he's a nice guy. His Manchester box was, IMO, probably about as good as a CrossFit box can be. In that sense I can see how it would be an enjoyable weekend. I did a L1 a few years ago and Karl was also on hand.

I'm not going to trot out any spacecraft / drunk Greg Glassman / scientology jokes because I think that horse has already comprehensively been flogged at this stage.

If you're considering going down the route of being a CF affiliate (or sort of semi-affiliate, maybe like a couple of the gyms in Dublin who are CF certified but have not affiliated) I guess I would wonder about the following:-

(1) What do you think you will do or could do different to avoid some of the injuries, imbalances, impingements etc. that bigger CF affiliates in Dublin have seen. I guess here I refer also to supposed cases of rhabdo (heard of one occurring down the country this year - but not confirmed). Will there be high-rep heavy deadlifts and high-rep box jumps at CrossFit Hanley, essentially? Individualised strength programmes? My perception is that these issues are the reason that many people who began with CrossFit in Dublin a few years ago have since moved on.

(2) Price-wise it seems like two of the bigger affiliates, CFI and CF Dublin have put themselves into a fairly premium price category (€170+ per month) and seem to implement a CrossFit L.A 'biz' business strategy. U.S style "nickel and diming" is the phrase I have heard used to describe it. Then at least one Dublin affiliate appears to bracket their prices around the €100-120 mark per year, more in the vein of other 'niche' gyms like Hercs, Ironside, East Coast Barbell (@Ironside I guess)... What are your thoughts on this i.e where's the market for CrossFit, and is it a premium service or something for students / lower income people etc. also?

(3) Given that you're an experienced lifter in your own right and obviously probably still don't square all the CF orthodoxy with what you believe to be correct, do you see yourself doing your own programming and avoiding the worst of HQ's occasional bouts of 'mainsite craziness'?

token

Re: Individualised training and group setting.

Something has to be done for people with 1+ year of training or else they are going to go no where. Weaknesses don't get fixed by doing straight up crossfit. People with 1+ year experience don't need constant supervision and you could have 2-3 groups within this class of people. It's not rocket science. For novices everybody doing the same thing is fine I don't have an issue with that.

d'Oracle

Hanley wrote: »

Irsondie, I don't know what goes on in there but I wouldn't hold it up as programming perfection.

Seriously?

What are your achievements as a coach, that you feel you can have these little digs? Trained in IP for a bit and now you think you are Irelands premier S&C coach or something?

You need to stop running folk down and pre-shilling your business on boards.
Seriously, its really bloody ugly.

Brian?

d'Oracle wrote: »

Seriously?

Seriously yourself. Stop that now.

Hanley, don't respond.

Barry.Oglesby

Hanley is shilling his accountancy business.

SanoVitae

Pre-shilling is the word of the day!

Barry.Oglesby

You can get pre-shilling done at most dental clinics now. Saw it on City deals last week.

daveyc21

Hanley wrote: »

The pool of people training those locations probably sums to less than 3/4 of CFIs members. When I trained in Hercs most sessions either had a senior lifter or coach present, I'd imagine ECB is much the same. Irsondie, I don't know what goes on in there but I wouldn't hold it up as programming perfection.

Actually from people who are training in here who are ex cfer's Ironside alone would probably have equivalent or more likely more members than cfi and our membership is increasing daily at this stage. In terms of programming unless you outsource your programming to Jesus its of course never going to be perfect. I think our results speak for themselves.We have a high number of national level athletes and a small number of prospective Olympians. Their opinion of the programming is infinitely more important to us than yours but your right you dont know whats going on in here so the best approach would probably be not to comment. Just for posterity membership in Ironside is 40-50 euro a month. Fair point by d'oracle even if it is hidden behind customary rage!

columok

Hanley wrote: »

The pool of people training those locations probably sums to less than 3/4 of CFIs members. When I trained in Hercs most sessions either had a senior lifter or coach present, I'd imagine ECB is much the same. Irsondie, I don't know what goes on in there but I wouldn't hold it up as programming perfection

Number of members is irrelevent. Its number of people training at the same time. I'm not holding anywhere up as programming perfection but indicating that people can "work-away" in small groups in a class. The consequences aren't exactly unprecedented. The programming crack at Ironside is probably a little unnecessary.

Hanley wrote: »

See now you're just dragging it towards personal experiences. I was pretty clear at the start of the thread that I wanted it to be about CFs methodologies rather than how individual affiliates apply them.

This is a fatuous statement. Of course I would refer to my experience of CF as this thread has reference your experience at your weekend. The only CF that exists is real implemented training. I was actually referencing CFI as quite a good example of using a daily lift that complemented the metcon. Even at that the limitations are large. (ie squatting twice a month for a 2 a weeker). Again when you stick to a prescribed WOD for everyone that presents massive limitations.

g'em

can we keep swipes at other gyms out of this please? It's not conducive to the topic at hand.

Hanley

daveyc21 wrote: »

Actually from people who are training in here who are ex cfer's Ironside alone would probably have equivalent or more likely more members than cfi and our membership is increasing daily at this stage. In terms of programming unless you outsource your programming to Jesus its of course never going to be perfect. I think our results speak for themselves.We have a high number of national level athletes and a small number of prospective Olympians. Their opinion of the programming is infinitely more important to us than yours but your right you dont know whats going on in here so the best approach would probably be not to comment. Just for posterity membership in Ironside is 40-50 euro a month. Fair point by d'oracle even if it is hidden behind customary rage!

My comments on programming are based off what's written on the walls ("band pushdowns for tricep explosiveness") and what's in members logs who train there. Surely that's a fair view of the general programming? I don't think it's the right approach, but hey, c'est la vie. I don't expect people to always agree with me.

Anyway, it's wildly off topic so lets leave it.

columok

Hanley wrote: »

My comments on programming are based off what's written on the walls ("band pushdowns for tricep explosiveness") and what's in members logs who train there. Surely that's a fair view of the general programming? I don't think it's the right approach, but hey, c'est la vie. I don't expect people to always agree with me.

Anyway, it's wildly off topic so lets leave it.

Don't know anybody who logs here who has programming done by Dave. My programming (for example) tends to be me experimenting with a variety of approaches. Think D'Oracle is the same. I would say that Dave's pedigree as an athlete and lifter makes him an excellent source of knowledge and experience on many components of strength and conditioning. Not to mention having Sami, Wayne and Barry about.

Anyway as you say back to the stream of other questions!

Hanley

Black Sheep wrote: »

I've met Karl Steadman a couple of times and I do think he's a nice guy. His Manchester box was, IMO, probably about as good as a CrossFit box can be. In that sense I can see how it would be an enjoyable weekend. I did a L1 a few years ago and Karl was also on hand.

I'm not going to trot out any spacecraft / drunk Greg Glassman / scientology jokes because I think that horse has already comprehensively been flogged at this stage.

If you're considering going down the route of being a CF affiliate (or sort of semi-affiliate, maybe like a couple of the gyms in Dublin who are CF certified but have not affiliated) I guess I would wonder about the following:-

CF Affiliation - not a hope. I don't like the system THAT much, and you're always at risk from some idiot doing something stupid and having all of CF get a bad name. We're a small island and people talk.

(1) What do you think you will do or could do different to avoid some of the injuries, imbalances, impingements etc. that bigger CF affiliates in Dublin have seen. I guess here I refer also to supposed cases of rhabdo (heard of one occurring down the country this year - but not confirmed). Will there be high-rep heavy deadlifts and high-rep box jumps at CrossFit Hanley, essentially? Individualised strength programmes? My perception is that these issues are the reason that many people who began with CrossFit in Dublin a few years ago have since moved on.

Ultimately I think something a long the IP model is the approach to take - a well structured mobility style warm up that shot guns all the big problem areas, a pre screen to see if there's anything major that an individual has to deal with, intelligent strength programming and some form of "metcon".

Essentially I'd do something like structure sessions:
-mobility
-strength
-conditioning (using relatively low skill movements)

(2) Price-wise it seems like two of the bigger affiliates, CFI and CF Dublin have put themselves into a fairly premium price category (€170+ per month) and seem to implement a CrossFit L.A 'biz' business strategy. U.S style "nickel and diming" is the phrase I have heard used to describe it. Then at least one Dublin affiliate appears to bracket their prices around the €100-120 mark per year, more in the vein of other 'niche' gyms like Hercs, Ironside, East Coast Barbell (@Ironside I guess)... What are your thoughts on this i.e where's the market for CrossFit, and is it a premium service or something for students / lower income people etc. also?

100-120 per year's a good deal

I don't know where the market for CrossFit lies, I think probably as a premium brand considering the level of service that is being given. Obviously that assumes it's the right kind of service, people realise the value they're getting and there's sufficient numbers to support it.

I can't speak for ironside, but ECBs scope is too narrow to consider it as a competitor, and Hercs offers nothing in the way of support or coaching (outside of some oly lifting and wrestling) so again, not a substitute product.

(3) Given that you're an experienced lifter in your own right and obviously probably still don't square all the CF orthodoxy with what you believe to be correct, do you see yourself doing your own programming and avoiding the worst of HQ's occasional bouts of 'mainsite craziness'?

All .com is good for is lulz, mainsite's programming is like daily testing rather than training. I'm considering a month of pure CF programming, just to evaluate it, and if I do it, it'll be on the rx as supplied - "use primarly couplets and triplets with compensatory movement patterns, a strength day every 3-4 days and the occasional chipper".

Hanley

columok wrote: »

Don't know anybody who logs here who has programming done by Dave. My programming (for example) tends to be me experimenting with a variety of approaches. Think D'Oracle is the same. I would say that Dave's pedigree as an athlete and lifter makes him an excellent source of knowledge and experience on many components of strength and conditioning. Not to mention having Sami, Wayne and Barry about.

Anyway as you say back to the stream of other questions!

I'm making one final statement on this and hopefully clearing up all the confusion, everything else after will be ignored and reported as being off topic. If anyone wants to discuss it further, you all know who I am in real life, you can find my email quite easily, PM me here, most of you are on my FB, a lot of you have my number and anyone else can find me VERY easily if they want.

I'm not taking swipes at any gyms. Ironside is a fantastic set up, more gyms are needed like it. For the price, it offers great value to its members. The programming I've been exposed to from there (ie the stuff on the walls, and what I've seen in members logs) isn't something I'd do or "approve" of, but that doesn't really matter, cos if it's working for people and they're staying injury free, that's fine.

You can talk all you want about ECB and Hercs, but they're not businesses. They're clubs. THey're not set up to provide profit to pay the owners bills, and they're not raking in mountains of cash after the bills have been paid (I know this for a fact in Hercs because I've attended AGMs and seen the accounts), so saying something else is bad value because they're not businesses makes no sense at all. But I guess if you don't think about it on a slightly deeper level and consider what the gyms are actually providing you'd probably think it's a good comparison, but in the context of what I've said - it's not.

And what's the big deal if gym owners make money?! F*cking hell you'd swear the irish fitness industry is a vocation. You can make 100+k a year as an accountant fiddling with a calculator contributing nothing much at all, but suddenly if you start looking after peoples health and improving their quality of life you become a money grabber? I'm sorry but that's a f*cking ridiculous statement to make.

I've nothing to hide about anything I've done. I've 5 years of posting and training history on here. My development is clear for anyone who wants to see it over that period. I've revised my opinion on a number of things, and will probably continue to do so. I don't ever try to shy away from that because I've legitimate reasons. I might even do the same on all of this in a few years time.

As I've said, if anyone wants to talk about this like mature adults instead of some petty passive aggressive character assassination attempts online, you know where I can be contacted.

columok

Hanley wrote: »

And what's the big deal if gym owners make money?! F*cking hell you'd swear the irish fitness industry is a vocation. You can make 100+k a year as an accountant fiddling with a calculator contributing nothing much at all, but suddenly if you start looking after peoples health and improving their quality of life you become a money grabber? I'm sorry but that's a f*cking ridiculous statement to make.

What's a f*cking ridiculous statement to make? Who is this addressed at?

Hanley

columok wrote: »

What's a f*cking ridiculous statement to make? Who is this addressed at?

Anyone who believes gym owners who deliver superior service and results don't deserve to be fairly rewarded for it.

So, that's it. i'm done responding to questions not associated to the topic as discussed in the opening few posts.

columok

Hanley wrote: »

Anyone who believes gym owners who deliver superior service and results don't deserve to be fairly rewarded for it.

So, that's it. i'm done responding to questions not associated to the topic as discussed in the opening few posts.

I completely agree. There is a lot of weird anti-capitalist sentiments regarding anything sporty (have seen the same in MMA). I'm not sure anyone on this thread is taking issue with paying for quality service! If people do something well then they should be able to charge a reasonable fee for that -a fee that is proportional to the quality of service!

Hanley

token wrote: »

Re: Individualised training and group setting.

Something has to be done for people with 1+ year of training or else they are going to go no where. Weaknesses don't get fixed by doing straight up crossfit. People with 1+ year experience don't need constant supervision and you could have 2-3 groups within this class of people. It's not rocket science. For novices everybody doing the same thing is fine I don't have an issue with that.

Yeah I'm with you on this alright. If you've an "advanced" group there's certainly scope to add in more complicated and individualised stuff, and at that point they should have a good level of kinesthetic awareness and be able to handle self coaching to a degree as well.

columok

Hanley wrote: »

Yeah I'm with you on this alright. If you've an "advanced" group there's certainly scope to add in more complicated and individualised stuff, and at that point they should have a good level of kinesthetic awareness and be able to handle self coaching to a degree as well.

A common criticism of CF (and one incidentally that I agree with) is that it misunderstands the role of testing and training in a training cycle and too often with the clock running every WOD becomes about score. Would you agree with some degree of periodisation (aka witchcraft) in this regard?

Hanley

columok wrote: »

A common criticism of CF (and one incidentally that I agree with) is that it misunderstands the role of testing and training in a training cycle and too often with the clock running every WOD becomes about score. Would you agree with some degree of periodisation (aka witchcraft) in this regard?

This is something I questioned. The .com workouts are pretty much just daily tests. Totally random following the "hopper" model - following them would be disasterous for most.

The programming should be varied, but with a greater overall plan, if that makes sense.

And depending on how you programme (2 on, 1 off / 3 on, 1 off etc etc) and include that strength WOD every 3-4, you're not really going hard against the clock TOO frequently during the week. And on top of that you shouldn't REALLY be busting your ass like it's the final even of the CF games every workout.

Mellor

Hanley wrote: »

Anyone who believes gym owners who deliver superior service and results don't deserve to be fairly rewarded for it.

So, that's it. i'm done responding to questions not associated to the topic as discussed in the opening few posts.

Good point. Something that the masses aren't able to grasp most of the time.

A gym or sports facility is a business just like anything else. Why people treat it differently. They are people willing to pay for a range of prices. If the market's there.

TheZ

Mellor wrote: »

Good point. Something that the masses aren't able to grasp most of the time.

A gym or sports facility is a business just like anything else. Why people treat it differently. They are people willing to pay for a range of prices. If the market's there.

I think it comes from the fact that growing up a lot of sports people played were run by volunteers (GAA, soccer, rugby, karate etc). Even as adults there are clubs you can join to play sports and they often just charge to cover costs.

Sports as a business can then seem a little like oversell where people are trying to upsell things to you and people ask themselves is the training for my benefit or the guy getting paid as motivation can be questioned.