Dublin Bus stop names

coylemj

I'm kicking off this thread to open a discussion on discrepancies and confusion generated by the official names of Dublin bus stops. By 'official' I mean the name that shows on the DB and RTPI websites.

First, two bus stops that have identical names yet they are across the road from one another so looking at a list of stops on a smartphone app you wouldn't be able to tell which one is for inbound and which is for outbound...

906 Upper Leeson St., junction Appian Way

This is the bus stop for inbound (mainly 46A and 145) buses, it's as it's name suggests at the junction of Leeson St. and Appian Way and is correctly named.

2795 Upper Leeson St., junction Appian Way

This bus stop is across the road from 906, it's for outbound (mainly 46A and 145) buses. Coming out of town it's the next stop after the Burlington Hotel and by rights should be called 'Upper Leeson St., junction Waterloo Road'.

Since Appian Way is only on the Ranelagh side of Leeson St., anyone seeing this description would assume that 2795 is the bus stop across the road serving inbound buses.

************

2060 Stillorgan Road, opposite Foxrock Golf Course

IMHO a completely daft name for this stop which is on the N11 directly opposite Foxrock Church. The objections I'd have to the official name are

1. the golf course is not visible from the N11
2. the entrance to the golf course is over a mile away off Torquay Road
3. that description could equally apply to any of the three bus stops on the west side of the N11 between Westminster Road and White's Cross

I'd call this stop 'N11 Foxrock Loreto' since the convent and school are the other side of the wall behind the bus stop.

The above examples are used by me to highlight to developers why it's essential for any smartphone app to allow the user to apply his/her own nickname to any stored (favourite) bus stops instead of being mislead and confused by the official names.

L1011

3966 "opposite leinster park" "3982 opposite leinster park" are a pair of stops in Maynooth.

Clearly they can't both be opposite it, but to make it worse, neither of them are. 3966 is at Leinster Park and 3982 is a noticeable distance down the road, and not opposite at all. "opposite Tesco" or "O'Neill Park' might be suitable names. Seeing as its a stage change and the stage is named "O'Briens Supermarket", as Tesco was 20 years ago, the former would make more sense.

coylemj

MYOB wrote: »

3966 "opposite leinster park" "3982 opposite leinster park" are a pair of stops in Maynooth.

Clearly they can't both be opposite it, but to make it worse, neither of them are. 3966 is at Leinster Park and 3982 is a noticeable distance down the road, and not opposite at all. "opposite Tesco" or "O'Neill Park' might be suitable names. Seeing as its a stage change and the stage is named "O'Briens Supermarket", as Tesco was 20 years ago, the former would make more sense.

Thanks for the contribution but can I suggest that we be constructive and that you suggest proper names for those two stops?

List them and give us what you'd suggest would be the right names for each.

BenShermin

Good thread!

2686 Dublin Bus Sports Club

This is the inbound stop on the Coldcut Road

2674 Dublin Bus Sports Club

This is the outbound stop on the Coldcut Road.

I'd suggest renaming them to (2686) Coldcut Road, junction Liffey Valley Retail Park and (2674) Coldcut Road, opposite Liffey Valley Retail Park. I'd be of the opinion that the majority of customers would be looking for Liffey Valley and not the Dublin Bus club. Certainly both bus stops shouldn't have the exact same name anyway!!

the groutch

coylemj wrote: »

2060 Stillorgan Road, opposite Foxrock Golf Course

IMHO a completely daft name for this stop which is on the N11 directly opposite Foxrock Church. The objections I'd have to the official name are

1. the golf course is not visible from the N11
2. the entrance to the golf course is over a mile away off Torquay Road
3. that description could equally apply to any of the three bus stops on the west side of the N11 between Westminster Road and White's Cross

I'd call this stop 'N11 Foxrock Loreto' since the convent and school are the other side of the wall behind the bus stop.

The above examples are used by me to highlight to developers why it's essential for any smartphone app to allow the user to apply his/her own nickname to any stored (favourite) bus stops instead of being mislead and confused by the official names.

That's listed online as 2060 Stillorgan Road, Junction Springfield Park, which is just as bad.

Also on the same route 4570 Kill Avenue, Holy Family Church, zero mention of the fast that it's right outside Baker's Corner.

L1011

coylemj wrote: »

Thanks for the contribution but can I suggest that we be constructive and that you suggest proper names for those two stops?

List them and give us what you'd suggest would be the right names for each.

I did say in my post that 3966 should be Leinster Park (no 'opposite') and 3982 should be O'Neill Park, unless they want to use a business name.

BenShermin

Another issue that annoys me is how useless the bus stop names are to tourists. The Emmet Road to Thomas Street corridor is a fine example of this:

1940 James Street, Junction Watling Street should be changed to 1940 James Street for Guinness Storehouse.

1945 Emmet Road, Junction Luby Road Should be changed to 1945 Emmet Road for Kilmainham Jail.

murphaph

BenShermin wrote: »

Certainly both bus stops shouldn't have the exact same name anyway!!

Totally disagree. Bus stops that are within a few feet of each other should have exactly the same name, especially ones serving the exact same route, just in different directions.

In Germany (not a bad country to take a lead from) they would laugh at you for naming a bus stop differently because it serves buses on the same route going the other way.

A pole in the ground should not really have a number of its own-a group/complex of stops adjacent to each other should have a consistent name however. If the layout is confusing because there are multiple stops at a transport hub then bus stops should get a letter and there should be a plan in a highly visible location with a simple map of the area and the bus stops and buses running from those stops clearly marked.

murphaph

BenShermin wrote: »

Another issue that annoys me is how useless the bus stop names are to tourists. The Emmet Road to Thomas Street corridor is a fine example of this:

1940 James Street, Junction Watling Street should be changed to 1940 James Street for Guinness Storehouse.

1945 Emmet Road, Junction Luby Road Should be changed to 1945 Emmet Road for Kilmainham Jail.

Sorry, have to disagree again. Wherever possible the bus stop names should reflect actual street names that can be found on a map index as opposed to things like tourist destinations that could change name (though Kilmainham most likely never will). Once you start naming touristy things like this then you have to decide where to stop. It's best avoided IMO when a viable street/junction name exists.

coylemj

murphaph wrote: »

Totally disagree. Bus stops that are within a few feet of each other should have exactly the same name, especially ones serving the exact same route, just in different directions.

How are you expected to tell one from the other on a smartphone app if they have identical names?

Stop 2795 as outlined by me above is called Upper Leeson St., junction Appian Way yet Appian Way is on the other side of Leeson St. so anybody seeing that name would assume that it's the inbound stop which it is not.

howiya

coylemj wrote: »

How are you expected to tell one from the other on a smartphone app if they have identical names?

Stop 2795 as outlined by me above is called Upper Leeson St., junction Appian Way yet Appian Way is on the other side of Leeson St. so anybody seeing that name would assume that it's the inbound stop which it is not.

The app lists the destination of the bus

coylemj

the groutch wrote: »

That's listed online as 2060 Stillorgan Road, Junction Springfield Park, which is just as bad.

They must have changed the name in the past couple of weeks. Agree that including Springfield Park in the name is silly because it's a cul de sac off the N11 and unless you live there the street name means nothing, it could be any street off the Stillorgan Road. It would be much better and less confusing if they used 'Loreto' in the name.

the groutch wrote: »

Also on the same route 4570 Kill Avenue, Holy Family Church, zero mention of the fast that it's right outside Baker's Corner.

In fairness to DB, that church is a pretty big (and extremely ugly) landmark which anyone who lives in the area is aware of and the name is prominently displayed on the exterior of the church so nobody could be confused based on the official name of the stop.

coylemj

howiya wrote: »

The app lists the destination of the bus

Only after you click on the stop and if you have both included in your list there is a 50% probability that you'll select the wrong stop.

I really can't see how you can defend this system. Waterloo Road is on the east side of Upper Leeson St., Appian Way is on the opposite side, it's almost but not quite a crossroads. It makes perfect sense to me that the outbound stop be called Leeson St/Waterloo Road and the stop across the road be called Leeson St/Appian Way.

howiya

coylemj wrote: »

Only after you click on the stop and if you have both included in your list there is a 50% probability that you'll select the wrong stop.

I really can't see how you can defend this system. Waterloo Road is on the east side of Upper Leeson St., Appian Way is on the opposite side, it's almost but not quite a crossroads. It makes perfect sense to me that the outbound stop be called Leeson St/Waterloo Road and the stop across the road be called Leeson St/Appian Way.

People get buses to and from places. It is unlikely that they will include the point of arrival in their list and more likely that they will include the stop that they require the information for in their list.

I wouldn't say I'm defending the system because I don't really care about the naming conventions it uses. I would be more concerned about the accuracy of the time information. I'm arguing that people who are confused by it are stupid

coylemj

murphaph wrote: »

Sorry, have to disagree again. Wherever possible the bus stop names should reflect actual street names that can be found on a map index as opposed to things like tourist destinations that could change name (though Kilmainham most likely never will). Once you start naming touristy things like this then you have to decide where to stop. It's best avoided IMO when a viable street/junction name exists.

I agree and for another reason: stop names are intended to help people who are beginning their journey from that stop, it is not intended to act as a destination aid.

If you're sitting on a bus you can't rely on being able to see the stop number printed on the bus stop when you arrive so putting the name of a tourist attraction in the stop name isn't going to do anything for tourists.

murphaph

coylemj wrote: »

How are you expected to tell one from the other on a smartphone app if they have identical names?

In Berlin the stop lists the buses and their destinations on the top of the pole. If I arrive at a stop and my bus is there but not the right direction (presume DB app does show bus direction?) then I go across the road or around the and that'll likely be my stop. It's the same, but very different and makes much more sense.

In very large transport hubs with multiple poles, they are lettered and a map may be provided with a list of what goes from which pole/shelter.

LXFlyer

coylemj wrote: »

Only after you click on the stop and if you have both included in your list there is a 50% probability that you'll select the wrong stop.

I really can't see how you can defend this system. Waterloo Road is on the east side of Upper Leeson St., Appian Way is on the opposite side, it's almost but not quite a crossroads. It makes perfect sense to me that the outbound stop be called Leeson St/Waterloo Road and the stop across the road be called Leeson St/Appian Way.

Well if you click on the search by route option on the app it lists the stops in each direction separately and it only takes 10 seconds to scroll down through the list.

BenShermin

It's of no use having two stop names the exact same if you're "searching by address" though.On the iPhone app a search by address will just give you two bus stops of the same name and no info on direction. Utterly useless!!

As for naming the bus stops for tourists, don't the new scrolls and announcements that will be rolled out to buses name the stop after the RTPI name. In that case the driver will have to shout over the "James's Street, Watling Street" automatic announcement to tell tourists that Guinness's is the next stop. Once again utterly useless!!

murphaph

BenShermin wrote: »

It's of no use having two stop names the exact same if you're "searching by address" though.On the iPhone app a search by address will just give you two bus stops of the same name and no info on direction. Utterly useless!!

Sounds like the app needs tweaking. In Berlin I can search by address and it will route me via the nearest viable stop, regardless of what it's called.

BenShermin wrote: »

As for naming the bus stops for tourists, don't the new scrolls and announcements that will be rolled out to buses name the stop after the RTPI name. In that case the driver will have to shout over the "James's Street, Watling Street" automatic announcement to tell tourists that Guinness's is the next stop. Once again utterly useless!!

In Berlin the automatic announcements sometimes contain extra information like "change here for bus to Tegel Airport". An "alight here for Guinness Storehouse" could easily be programmed into the Dublin system without renaming bus stops themselves. It's a heck of a lot easier to edit an announcement and download it (automatically) rather than change printed maps and timetables when Guinness decide to rename the Storehouse to something else!

coylemj

I really don't see the point in quoting what they do in Germany but as it seems to be the fashion du jour, let me point out that I was in Munich in 1979 where they had a consolidated ticketing system. You could buy a ticket from a machine at a bus stop in the suburbs, catch a bus to the inner suburbs, a tram to a U-Bahn (underground) station and so on and so on, all the way to your destination and all on one ticket.

So can we please accept that we are more than 30 years behind them and stop comparing ourselves to Germany!

murphaph

coylemj wrote: »

I really don't see the point in quoting what they do in Germany but as it seems to be the fashion du jour, let me point out that I was in Munich in 1979 where they had a consolidated ticketing system. You could buy a ticket from a machine at a bus stop in the suburbs, catch a bus to the inner suburbs, a tram to a U-Bahn (underground) station and so on and so on, all the way to your destination and all on one ticket.

So can we please accept that we are more than 30 years behind them and stop comparing ourselves to Germany!

No. We have got to start doing simple things properly. Naming bus stops consistently is an easy task. Integrated ticketing is more complex, but should still be in place.

I quote German practice because it's what I know best, not because it's in fashion. Sorry if it annoys you!

AlekSmart

coylemj wrote: »

I really don't see the point in quoting what they do in Germany ......

........So can we please accept that we are more than 30 years behind them and stop comparing ourselves to Germany!

For me it's not about directly comparing ourselves with Germany,as I agree it's futile,however I feel the real question is why over a period when we took full advantage of our new-found European status,our leaders failed comprehensively to adopt European best-practice in so many everyday,ordinary areas....such as Public Transport.

It is indeed incredible that our various authorities remain,as yet,uncommitted to adopting a unified Public Transport Fare regime for what remains a relatively small Capital City and environs...?

The arkward fact remains that we don't even have a usable or commonly accepted method of funding our systems,and that continuing abyss will continue to prevent real progres towards Public Transport availability and popularity.......lets face it,we simply don't understand the concepts of "Common Good" or "Universal Availibility" upon which so many European systems are based.?

murphaph

Indeed, you could replace Germany with any Nordic country and even many Latin ones when making these comparisons.

snappieT

The information about whether a stop in inbound or not is actually known by Dublin Bus. In fact, as of right now, having been spurred on by this thread, DublinBusLive now has indicators as to whether a stop is designated as inbound or outbound. What that designation actually is for cross-city routes is arbitrary, as far as I can tell (which of the north/southbound stops on O'Connell street is "outbound", for example?)