Why do Dublin bus only allow smartcard validation on the right

Carawaystick

If you've a smartcard ticket for DublinBus you need to validate it at the reader on the right when boarding. Whenever I get the bus, almost all (>95%) use a smartcard.

Allowing passengers validate a ticket at the drivers side would reduce the dwell time loading. There is a smartcard logo beside the drivers ticket machine, which should allow this.

laoisfan

difficult one this perhaps they still abide by the traditional tickets on the right, cash paying customers on the left? i don't know, i'm just spit-balling here.

what do you think?

mikemac

Carawaystick wrote: »

Whenever I get the bus, almost all (>95%) use a smartcard.

That's a huge percentage and wouldn't be that common, not in my experience

From what I've seen it's the cash payers on the left who causes the dwell time, to install an extra reader on every bus is not worth it

Maybe one day but not now

monument

Carawaystick wrote: »

If you've a smartcard ticket for DublinBus you need to validate it at the reader on the right when boarding. Whenever I get the bus, almost all (>95%) use a smartcard.

Allowing passengers validate a ticket at the drivers side would reduce the dwell time loading. There is a smartcard logo beside the drivers ticket machine, which should allow this.

The one on the right is fully automated.

While the one on the left is linked into the drivers' interface to allow them to choose an amount for pay-as-you-go smartcards which are currently being tested.

The exact system it will use or if there will be a single fare has yet to be decided.

Victor

I think if you do it on the left, it needs the driver to confirm the transaction, as the smartcard menu kicks in.

robd

Carawaystick wrote: »

If you've a smartcard ticket for DublinBus you need to validate it at the reader on the right when boarding. Whenever I get the bus, almost all (>95%) use a smartcard.

Allowing passengers validate a ticket at the drivers side would reduce the dwell time loading. There is a smartcard logo beside the drivers ticket machine, which should allow this.

Kind of up there with why did Dublin Bus remove the double doors.

They seem intent on preventing fare evasion rather than speeding up loading and introducing shorter dwell times and better customer experience.

No doubt when we do move to epurse smart cards with penalty cash fares there'll be some excuse about it being too difficult for driver to observe 2 queues of smart card passengers validating there tickets.

It's one of those things that requires a Minister for Transport to go "hey, this not right for passengers" and mandate moves to reduce stop dwell times such as bringing back middle doors and putting in 2 smart card validators.

monument

monument wrote: »

The one on the right is fully automated.

While the one on the left is linked into the drivers' interface to allow them to choose an amount for pay-as-you-go smartcards which are currently being tested.

The exact system it will use or if there will be a single fare has yet to be decided.

Victor wrote: »

I think if you do it on the left, it needs the driver to confirm the transaction, as the smartcard menu kicks in.

Even with all of that, I can't see why the system be set up so it can recognise daily/monthly/yearly/etc prepaid cards very quickly and just work like the one on the right.

There could be a clash if you will be able to put a non-consecutive weekly/monthly ticket on a proper smartcard / pay-as-you-go card -- but it should be set up so it knows the cards which are only daily/monthly/yearly cards.

EDIT: Also, in what area are 90%+ of people using cards? I'm guessing at peak times?

John R

You are all vastly over playing the time benefit of using both validators. Most users can board-validate-continue to seat without pausing and the addition of a second validator would if anything make that flow more difficult as the corridor past the wheelarch/stairway is only wide enough for one person to progress at a time.

TFL use only one validator (attached to the driver's ticket machine) and I have never heard any serious suggestions that their fleet be equipped with a second validator to speed up times.

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

If you've a smartcard ticket for DublinBus you need to validate it at the reader on the right when boarding. Whenever I get the bus, almost all (>95%) use a smartcard.

Allowing passengers validate a ticket at the drivers side would reduce the dwell time loading. There is a smartcard logo beside the drivers ticket machine, which should allow this.

95% using passes???

Using 4 buses a day I certainly do not see anything close to that.

You're very lucky if that is the case.

The basic rule is - driver intervention on the left, passes on the right.

Aard

Even if there were two validators, there's only enough room in the corridor for one person at a time. Unlike in Nice, for example, where there's usually three validators on each bus - but the corridor is both pretty short and wide enough for two people.

Flukey

Two fast queues would make it slower as people pass the validation points. The slower cash queue means the card customers get in smoothly and the occasional cash customer can easily flow into the line after they've paid. It is fine as it is.

meanmachine3

Carawaystick wrote: »

Allowing passengers validate a ticket at the drivers side would reduce the dwell time loading. There is a smartcard logo beside the drivers ticket machine, which should allow this.

this is for us to check tickets that have expired. sometimes we get people using cards that have expired. so when this happens we place the smart card on our machine and press the smart card button. as far as i can remember it only gives the last time it was used. most of the time the excuse we get is it was only bought and it's the first time been used even though the card looks well worn.we can give a small print out about the card. but we cannot validate them. for some reason most passengers tend to keep expired cards as well as new ones in their wallet, then they go fiddling and trying different cards till they get the valid one.

monument

meanmachine3 wrote: »

Carawaystick wrote: »

Allowing passengers validate a ticket at the drivers side would reduce the dwell time loading. There is a smartcard logo beside the drivers ticket machine, which should allow this.

this is for us to check tickets that have expired. sometimes we get people using cards that have expired. so when this happens we place the smart card on our machine and press the smart card button. as far as i can remember it only gives the last time it was used. most of the time the excuse we get is it was only bought and it's the first time been used even though the card looks well worn.we can give a small print out about the card. but we cannot validate them. for some reason most passengers tend to keep expired cards as well as new ones in their wallet, then they go fiddling and trying different cards till they get the valid one.

As already mentioned, it's also for the pay-as-you-go smartcard currently on trial, and currently on a limited amount of routes.

coylemj

meanmachine3 wrote: »

for some reason most passengers tend to keep expired cards as well as new ones in their wallet, then they go fiddling and trying different cards till they get the valid one.

It's because you can't tell from looking at the card whether it's used up or not so the temptation is to take it with you on the next trip with a new ticket at the ready in case it really is used up, I do this all the time so guilty m'lud.

foggy_lad

meanmachine3 wrote: »

this is for us to check tickets that have expired. sometimes we get people using cards that have expired. so when this happens we place the smart card on our machine and press the smart card button. as far as i can remember it only gives the last time it was used. most of the time the excuse we get is it was only bought and it's the first time been used even though the card looks well worn.we can give a small print out about the card. but we cannot validate them. for some reason most passengers tend to keep expired cards as well as new ones in their wallet, then they go fiddling and trying different cards till they get the valid one.

I have often seen such passengers hold busses up for over a minute as they search for the one ticket which is valid. IMHO these people should be immediately be put off the bus as should anyone who does not have their ticket or correct change ready.

coylemj wrote: »

It's because you can't tell from looking at the card whether it's used up or not so the temptation is to take it with you on the next trip with a new ticket at the ready in case it really is used up, I do this all the time so guilty m'lud.

so you keep the ticket and on it's last journey you throw it into the bin provided on the bus as you are leaving.

meanmachine3

coylemj wrote: »

It's because you can't tell from looking at the card whether it's used up or not so the temptation is to take it with you on the next trip with a new ticket at the ready in case it really is used up, I do this all the time so guilty m'lud.

next time you not sure what's left on your smart cards coyle just ask the driver to check it, we can also give a small print out.

foggy_lad wrote: »

I have often seen such passengers hold busses up for over a minute as they search for the one ticket which is valid. IMHO these people should be immediately be put off the bus as should anyone who does not have their ticket or correct change ready.

holy cow foggy, can imagine the backlash we as bus drivers would get on here. christ we'd be like fresh lambs to the slaughter. you've already seen what i/ we get when defending drivers for not opening doors again once they're closed.
but i like the idea

KeRbDoG

With the new universal smartcard (the touch to validate type) thats coming soon, you will be able to validate at the driver and on the right I've found out.

Found out that the usual 'semi-state' silliness will continue though, this was from a conversation in a pub btw It seems that the folks who are training Dublin Bus folks internally don't even have a full grasp of the system.

An example of a system that works is the Luas.
You badge on and then need you need to tag off the Luas to ensure you only get charged for the stages/zones you travel Failing to do so means you get charged until the Luas terminates.

It seems with the new smartcard system, if you use the universal smartcard you get charged the maximum fair. If you want a lesser fair you need to approach the driver and state the fair you want before (or after) you badge.
Why not have a badge on/off system!?

I live in hope that I heard the information wrong

AlekSmart

KeRbDoG wrote: »

With the new universal smartcard (the touch to validate type) thats coming soon, you will be able to validate at the driver and on the right I've found out.

Found out that the usual 'semi-state' silliness will continue though, this was from a conversation in a pub btw It seems that the folks who are training Dublin Bus folks internally don't even have a full grasp of the system.

An example of a system that works is the Luas.
You badge on and then need you need to tag off the Luas to ensure you only get charged for the stages/zones you travel Failing to do so means you get charged until the Luas terminates.

It seems with the new smartcard system, if you use the universal smartcard you get charged the maximum fair. If you want a lesser fair you need to approach the driver and state the fair you want before (or after) you badge.
Why not have a badge on/off system!?

I live in hope that I heard the information wrong

I rather suspect that what KeRbDoG has heard is indeed correct.

However at this stage it is important to realize that NO operational training is currently ongoing in relation to the NTA's universal LEAP smartcard.

All that exists is a tiny experimental test-group operating on a handful of routes from a single garage.

So with that in mind I would delay a tad before rushing to judgement.

Thje issue of Tag-on/Tag-off on the Bus network has already been done to death on many threads here.

As the OP (what a difficult name to reference !) points out it works perfectly well on Luas,where the (multiple) readers are remotely mounted from the Tram itself.

That is not,and cannot be the situation on the Bus,as the current layout of both Bus and Infrastructure design simply cannot cope with the imposition of the Tag-Off requirement.

As many other posters have pointed out,the most common arrangement across the world is to have the Bus element operating at a flat-fare with any zone or distance charging tending to operate on the rail based systems.

However,what appears to be the continuing stumbling block here is the absence of central agreement on funding Dublin Bus to move to a Flat Fare system,which of itself will entail a substantial fall in cash on hand.

This entire issue really needed to be the very first item on the now never ending list of things to be attended to by the Integrated Ticketing Implimentation Group.

It should have been a pre-requesite for agreement before any other element was attended to.

Instead,it was continually,over the past decade,kicked down the road in the hope that something would turn up to solve the problem....nothing has.

So it now seems we will half-utilize a highly advanced technological system by failing to take full advantage of its benfits,in order to leave the ancienne-régime undisturbed.

The next issue will be how much the Maximum Fare which will be automatically debited will be....I suspect €2.50 with the lower stage-based fares then being debited at the drivers terminal only.

Operationally,for me as a Busdriver it's a disaster,with absolutely zero benefit to the improvement of service or the reduction of dwell-times.

Before rushing to berate Dublin Bus on the issue,I would hope posters would take a little time to research the tortured and byzantine nature of how we (The Dept of Transport,the RPA,The ITIG ) have managed to spend almost €40 MILLION over a decade and yet still have no operational system to show for it.

Dublin Bus itslef was far far ahead of the posse on the issue of Smartcards and at several junctures was in a position to introduce various "Smart" products but was actively prevailed upon to delay until the "Main" system was ready,which hopefully will be later this decade......:rolleyes:

monument

Alex -- how he described it is how it's been tested, so there is some truth to what he is saying. Even if the workings of the system are changed later, he is correct now.

coylemj

foggy_lad wrote: »

I have often seen such passengers hold busses up for over a minute as they search for the one ticket which is valid. IMHO these people should be immediately be put off the bus as should anyone who does not have their ticket or correct change ready.

I have both the old and new tickets in my hand as I board the bus so the delay to anyone behind me is minimal plus I don't travel at peak times so there's hardly ever anyone behind me with a ticket.

Auld wans with handbags really infuriate me, they get on the bus, open the bag, take out the purse and start counting out the coins but you get that down in the local convenience store every day of the week yet it never seems to bother them that they're holding people up.

foggy_lad wrote: »

so you keep the ticket and on it's last journey you throw it into the bin provided on the bus as you are leaving.

Usually have put the ticket back in my wallet out of habit so forget to get rid of it when getting off the bus.

Carawaystick

It's the 33x where the cash fare is about double the prepaid farel

One day last week it was about 15 mins getting to the terminus at the custom house, and there was another delay while 60+ passengers boarded using only one smartcard validator

If there's a mix of coin payers on a route, then the issues not so bad, but to install a reader and then prevent it being used...

bk

Carawaystick wrote: »

It's the 33x where the cash fare is about double the prepaid farel

Which just goes to show how it should be on all routes.

Make the cash fare double the card fare and quickly everyone will move to smart card.

Which if properly implemented will lead to lower dwell times.

jeckle

foggy_lad wrote: »

I have often seen such passengers hold busses up for over a minute as they search for the one ticket which is valid. IMHO these people should be immediately be put off the bus as should anyone who does not have their ticket or correct change ready.

While being a good idea it sounds like a scene from a futuristic movie, where the driver has an eject button to remove the offending passengers. The reality is that it would cause more time delays if the driver was to politely ask the passenger to leave the bus, taking into account any ensuing explanations, arguments & potential violence/riots, not to mention intending passengers having to make way for them to actually get off the bus.

Another unrelated point is, that the word 'queues' is being used quite a lot in this thread - queues only seem to work here if they consist of three or four people - any more & it becomes a free for all scrum where it's a dog eat dog, survival of the fittest situation.

Also, a lot of the time the bus either doesn't or physically can't stop in such a way as the doors are at the top of any queue, & even if this did happen you get people pushing over to the right or the left of the door, depending on their fare payment method.