DVB-T system compatibility in Europe

Lennoxschips

Hi,

I'm living in Sweden and don't own a TV. I do have a very large computer screen and a stereo, which I use almost like a TV to watch streamed TV online (RTE Player and the Swedish equivalent, etc.)

However, am looking to get a DVB-T box to hook up to my screen's spare HDMI port, so that I can Swedish terrestrial HDTV in time for the bumper sports year with Euro 2012 and Olympics and what have you.

The only thing is, the prices they want for a DVB-T2 box in Sweden are outrageous, around 100 euros, with guys on the internet looking to sell second hand ones for 60 and 70 euros.

Then I saw that Freeview HD boxes in the UK are going for 30 quid or so. Would they be compatible with Sweden's DVB-T2 system? Does anybody know?

It's all so confusing!!

Also, out of curiosity, does anybody know if DVB-T boxes also work with a DVB-C signal?

watty

No generally DVB-T boxes do not work with DVB-C

Also there are NO free DVB-C signals and the operator supplies a box. In many (but not all) EU countries it's not allowed to connect your own DVB-C box.

Sweden uses Nordig, like Ireland but not MHEG5. A UK only DVB-T2 D-book box will not have VHF. Some Swedish sites may use VHF.

mrdtv2010

Page 44 of the Humax HDR T2 and T2 zapper box Freeview HD manuals:

Frequency range: 174-230Mhz and 470-862Mhz so full VHF and UHF frequency coverage.

mrdtv

Lennoxschips

Ok, so basically I need to check it does UHF and VHF... and the EPG might not work.

Also there are NO free DVB-C signals and the operator supplies a box.

There are six unencrypted channels on my cable network. Problem is none of them are HD, that's what I'm interested in. The two public service (SVT) channels are in free to air HD on DVB-T2.

Doesn't make sense to me that DVB-C and DVB-T tuners aren't interchangeable. Me thinks the various cable and terrestrial companies are intentionally trying to make our lives difficult.

reslfj

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Doesn't make sense to me that DVB-C and DVB-T tuners aren't interchangeable.QUOTE] Me thinks the various cable and terrestrial companies are intentionally trying to make our lives difficult.

I does make sence - very much sence - that DVB-T/T2 and DVB-C/C2 are very different.
It has nothing to do with marketing and everything to do with technology and efficient use of spectrum.

Lars

PS! only the SVT2-HD uses the VHF band III and only in less than 40% of Sweden. In most of Sweden both SVT1-HD and SVT2-HD (mux6 and mux7) use UHF channels.

From Teracom.se download the pdf files "Kanal- och Modplaner (Channel- and Modulation plans)" for 'Storstationer' (Large/main TX sites).

Lennoxschips

Thanks for that link! It appears that Mux 6 is UHF in Malmö, but Mux 7 is VHF. Hmmmm.

Also, I want a box that can also pull in the Danish stations, preferably in HD. But that's not really a priority. Danish HD would be nice but Swedish HD is the priority.

Kjell & Company have only one DVB-T2 box for sale and are looking for 1400 SEK for it (150 Euros). Robbery. I could chance a Freeview HD box from eBay for 30 quid and see how I get on I suppose...

watty

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Ok, so basically I need to check it does UHF and VHF... and the EPG might not work.

If the box has full DVB-EPG support the EPG should work.

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Doesn't make sense to me that DVB-C and DVB-T tuners aren't interchangeable. Me thinks the various cable and terrestrial companies are intentionally trying to make our lives difficult.

Satellite, Terrestrial via aerial and Cable are very different environments. Thus the DVB-S, DVB-T and DVB-C (The "2" versions are later enhanced schemes).

Satellite, DVB-S, DVB-S2: Plenty of spectrum, very weak signal, almost no manmade interference and no multipath. Single carrier QPSK and APSK best suited modulation schemes. Low data rate per MHz spectrum, but lots of spectrum. C = 3.5 ... 4.2GHz, Ku = 10.7 ... 12.6GHz and Ka = 19 .. 22GHz bands approximately, though C band is mostly head end feeds.

Terrestrial, DVB-T, DVB-T2: Most limited spectrum, medium to strong signal varies by huge amount, manmade interference and multi-path reception is common. Limited to about 8 multiplexes per viewer due to co-channel issues, different areas have to transmit the same signal on a different channel as there is limit to SFN (Single Frequency Network) size. COFDM (1000s of carriers per mux) with Low to medium QAM per carrier. Medium data rate per MHz spectrum. The lowest capacity system due to lack of spectrum. Yet the plan is to sell of the 790MHz to 864MHz part of TV spectrum (but this idea started before HD and so called "3d" (stereoscopic) TV started). There is a good argument to ditch the so called "digital dividend" plan which reduces Terrestrial even more compared to Cable and Satellite. 470MHz to 790MHz after 2012. Some use of 174MHz to 275MHz Band III.

Cable, DVB-C, DVB-C2: About x3 to x4 spectrum of Terrestrial, but shared with Broadband. No Co-channel issues so over 70 to 110 channels / Multiplexes possible. Strong signal that can be adjusted in strength external to reception, little man made interference and no multipath unless there is a fault. Single carrier high QAM (256 to 1024) is well suited. Very high data rate per spectrum. Up to 110MHz to 1200MHz with no gaps, though upper frequency is often 560MHz or 862MHz.

There are some TVs with multiple tuners and even some multi-standard chips.

Lennoxschips

Anybody know a good online retailer in UK/Ireland/Germany/wherever of DVB-T2 boxes, and who will deliver to Sweden? I'd prefer a knowledgeable retailer over Tesco/Argos etc.

I understand that satellite and terrestrial/cable are completely different environments. The satellite box has to control the LNB, so that's something completetly different.

But in the days of analogue TV you could hook up your TV up to either an antenna or to a cable signal, and the TV was able to pick up the channels. DVB-C and DVB-T should have been harmonised from the outset so that boxes could be made interhangeable between DVB-T and DVB-C. It would have been feasible to do.

In the days of analogue every TV had a suitable receiver built into it for everything but satellite, but now we have DVB-T, DVB-T2, DVB-C and DVB-C2 to contemplate. Sure, the product has improved somewhat, but the average Joe like me is left really confused by the whole thing!

watty

It would have been a HUGE waste to use DVB-T on cable and DVB-C isn't feasible for aerials. It's not remotely economic to use the same digital system.

Even USA which uses a different Terrestrial Digital uses DVB-c on cable.

The LNB control is entirely minor issue compared to other issues I listed above. Practically irrelevant. Using DVB-T on cable would "waste" over 75% of its capacity.

HD was the driving factor behind DVB-S2, DVB-T2 and DVB-C2. Basically more efficient modulation schemes, no matter if the content is MPEG2, MPEG4, MHEG-5, MP2, MP3, AAC, AC-3 or data.

MPEG-4 vs MPEG-2 is more efficient compression of only video really, nothing to do with Modulation, Cable, Satellite or Terrestrial.

The original Analogue satellite used a scheme like that on Terrestrial Microwave links as ordinary Modulation would not work. Originally due to lack of technology Cable used the same scheme as Analogue Terrestrial. But it was never likely to use the same scheme on digital. That would have been very wasteful.

Lennoxschips

Fair enough, hopefully as the technology gets cheaper we will get boxes that can do everything.

Lennoxschips

Just been told by what seems to be a fairly knowledgeable Swedish electronics shop that DVB-T2 boxes from the UK don't work in Sweden. Because the standard is slightly different (then why, you ask yourself, is it a "standard").

Although he might just be trying to flog me a more expensive box. Seemed honest enough though.

All these systems are extremely frustrating. It's like PAL, NTSC and SECAM all over again.

Lennoxschips

Just been told by what seems to be a fairly knowledgeable Swedish electronics shop that DVB-T2 boxes from the UK don't work in Sweden. Because the standard is slightly different (then why, you ask yourself, is it a "standard").

Although he might just be trying to flog me a more expensive box. Seemed honest enough though.

All these systems are extremely frustrating. It's like PAL, NTSC and SECAM all over again.

The Cush

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Just been told by what seems to be a fairly knowledgeable Swedish electronics shop that DVB-T2 boxes from the UK don't work in Sweden. Because the standard is slightly different (then why, you ask yourself, is it a "standard").

The difference is probably down to the different receiver specifications required in each country and not the transmission standard. D-Book in the UK and Nordig in Scandinavia.

Swedish Test centre - http://www.teracom.se/Produkter/Mottagartester/

FAQ and overview compare requirements for DVB-T2 Receiver requirements

winston_1

The Icecrypt T2200 has both VHF and EBU teletext and as such is probably the most compatable UK HD box. It has been on sale at Tecso on line for under £60 but not at the moment.

I wouldn't bother with the £30 ones if you need VHF.

Lennoxschips

Thanks, I'll have a look into that.