Qipco British Champions Day 2011

Montjeu

Not here long but surprised there isn't any discussion on this. Maybe the boggers are too wrapped up in the return of the NH :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PR8dWuty6c

Sprint Stakes (Group 2, 6 furlongs)

An unimaginative pick but Society Rock seems the stand out choice in this one. Looks like the ground will be on the fast side for Deacon Blues and the only horse at the top of the betting I would favour is Moonlight Cloud. However, SR loves Ascot having run here 3 times, with his only defeat coming to the Australian bred Starspangledbanner in the Golden Jubilee in 2010 which SR won this past June. A solid e/w chance if he renews his previous Ascot form.

Queen Elizabeth Stakes II (Group 1, 1 mile)

An exciting race as we get to see the wonder horse in action again. I wouldn't take 1/3 if it was a one horse race but I do think Frankel will win it well now that Queally knows how to ride him. The only thing that will ever beat Frankel is the pilot, and although Excelebration has improved it would take a miracle of events for him to overturn the formbook. Dick Turpin is the one I think has the potential to put in a big performance. He hasn't shown much to justify this confidence even with a recent win over Cityscape but I think if Immortal Verse or Excelebration go after Frankel too hard it could leave Hughesie with the chance to mop up some place money.

Champion Stakes (Group 1, 1 mile 2 furlongs)

The most competitive race of the meeting and although I don't think So You Think is a wonder horse, he is phenomenal over 10f. His Arc performance was impressive and even though he supposedly improves with a quick turnaround I would look elsewhere due to the price. Snow Fairy is an improving sort and she is somewhat fresher as her season only started mid-summer. Her price is appealing and miraculously is getting her good ground this time of year. She has a nice draw in stall 3 and will show plenty of heart even if it isn't good enough to reverse form with SYT over 10f. I think the WFA allowance is more significant this time of year as more horses tend to be going in their coats and boiling over, and this is the only positive that Nathaniel seems to have. He is unproven at the distance, has an unfavourable draw (10), has questionable form in his King George win and won't get softer ground. However, I do have a soft spot for this John Gosden colt so will have a small e/w incase he does win. Snow Fairy seems the value bet of the race though.

It is a good days racing and has plenty of potential but still think the opener of Royal Ascot will be hard to surpass.

tryfix

A good days racing, it's a pity they couldn't have held back a top juvenile race like the Royal Lodge to give us some classic horse to dream of over the long winter. It's not going to make for the best betting either, at the end of a long season I would be expecting the more lightly campaigned horses to come good.

Will Fame and Glory bounce back in the stayers or is this goodbye from him?

In the Fillies and Mares I like Dancing Rain at 11/2, she had a nice confidence booster in a soft German GP1 and is still fresh.

I will stick with So You Think in the Champion, he's easily the best 10f horse in the race and I expect him to demolish everything with Nathaniel the only danger in the race.

Frankel has been well placed in his races, but Excelebration and Immortal Verse will be no pushovers, a race to watch not one to bet in.

UrbanSea

Alas,'Champions Day' with only two group 1 races.

Montjeu

7 group 1 winners in a field of 12 in the Champion Stakes.

5 group 1 winners in a field of 7 in the QE II.

A couple of group 1 winners scattered amongst the other races aswell.
It is disappointing there isn't more group 1's but it is still a strong day of racing.

UrbanSea

True,but they'll have a tough job topping Arc day with 2 group 1's in future.

bellybuster12

Society rock for me e/w in the sprint stakes is cracking value imo.

meriwether

Cheltenham is on.

Thats where my main interest lies on Saturday.

That said, Frankel has held my interest this year on the flat, so I will definitely catch that.

afterburn1

Hope Frankel produces a performance worthy of a great champion. He may not be as good or versatile as Sea the stars, But his guineas performance will be remembered forever. I have seen some greats win the guineas over the past 35 years watching racing but nothing has come close to that! Sea bird in the arc long before my time looked something similar. Getting back to tomorrows race I expect excelebration to keep Frankel honest at least.

UrbanSea

All in all a good day I think. Great crowd and good racing.

Some observations and questions afterward.

1. Thankfully there were no bans for overuse of the whip(or I haven't heard any),which would surely have taken away from a great day. Hopefully the rules will have been reviewed and improved upon and will only make next years' day,and flat season in general,even better.


2.Excellent prize money,but if it's to be really viewed as a day for champions,as said before, they need to upgrade races to group 1's,with only 2 on the card.
Put it into perspective: Fame and Glory won a group 3 worth 200,000 pounds. This is more than the group 1 Irish St Leger (220,000 euro).
The group 2 sprint is worth 250,000 pounds which is 50,000 more than the Sprint Cup.


3. It may never attract the absolute top mile and a half horses due to it's close proximity to the Arc. Yes we saw So You Think and Snow Fairy having run in the Arc,but that's over a ten furlong race. There was no mile and a half group 1 on the card and so it cannot even come close to the Arc. By putting the meeting off maybe even another week and adding a mile and a half race open to colts and fillies might attract some really nice horses,with the possibility of adding extra prize money for an Arc/New mile and a half group 1 race double.

I understand that this would leave little time between this meeting and the BC but few of the top mile and a half runners go over to the BC. By adding this race it may also encourage a greater international contingent,with the likes of Japanese horses coming for the Arc staying over here for the race. For example,Nathaniel didn't run a great race today but it was over a trip obviously too short,and with unusually fast ground Arc day,he had no other options left for him.


Any opinions and criticisims?

restingpilgrim

Spencer got 4 days (not for the whip) and Soumillon ban is going to cause repercussions as he is talking about taking legal action

restingpilgrim

I am pleased that QIPCO had a good series and that it got publicity but this used to be a good meeting with QE11 anyway do not agree with the movement of the champion stakes to this card as champion stakes day card was good enough at newmarket. The best horses have not really taken part in recent years but that has a lot to do with the timing and the distance

tryfix

A very enjoyable days racing, Champions day at Ascot suited the Champion stakes better than Newmarket, where it came across as a bit like going through the motions at the end of a long season.

The day could definitely do with a big 2yo race, something like the Racing Post Trophy or maybe they could nab the Horris Hilll stakes and give it a badly needed boost.

The Prize money is fantastic and will make it a very attractive meeting with the prestige of Ascot drawing in the crowds.

UrbanSea

What I really dislike about the whip rules is this: It's similar to Rewilding's race. If the jockey gets banned and loses his fee and win percentage,then surely the horse must lose the race.
If a horse is beaten a short head and is whipped the correct number of times but the winner has broken the rules but keeps the race,where is the fairness in that?
Soumillon loses 50k in prize money today but his horse gets to keep the race. I don't understand this,either apply the rules to horse and jockey or don't at all.

I'm not saying Soumillon whipping the horse one extra time in the final furlong meant he beat SYT,I mean there may be a photo where it could be struck twelve times but still win.

At the end of the day if that's a big group 1 race and say a Godolphin runner beats a Coolmore horse because he has whipped the horse so many times,the jockey won't care too much. Yes they will lose the fee but that short head could be the difference in a huge breeding career. They'd surely be looked after by the Sheikh.

I think it's crazy,I think they should reverse this dreadful rule. I hope Soumillon wins his case over this,as he's taking legal action. It'll put off top international jockeys and horses coming to the UK,which is hardly good for Champions Day in the future.

kksaints

Some very good racing today. Frankel again proved his class and the champion stakes also looked like it produced a quality winner.

However like Tryfix says there really should be a 2yo race on this card. For me it should be the Dewhurst as having the Middle park and the Dewhurst on the same day doesnt really make sense. It should be there instead of the apprenticeship race which should be on the future champions day instead of one of the 2yos G1 instead.

Pinesky

Thought Frankie was very poor on Dubai Prince.
Had a poor draw but broke very well but failed to get nearer the rails.
Always struggling after that.
How long before he hangs up the blue silks for the last time

UrbanSea

I don't think you can blame the jockey for a ride in which the horse is beaten eighty two lengths. The horse clearly wasn't itself.

tryfix

This years top 2yo races seem to have gone by without anyone getting too excited about them. There's usually a buzz about the horses competing in them . Last year we had the hype about Frankel and Dream Ahead clashing in the Dewhurst, this year there was barely any excitement about any of the big 2y olds bar Maybe and the French horse Dabirisim. Still time for a hype merchant in Racing Post Trophy, but it's been a very quiet year for the 2y olds by normal standards.

Pinesky

Thank's Urban Sea , Frankie looked down and practically pulled up the horse outside the furlong marker. My issue with the ride was that he couldn't win from the position he was in after two furlongs

UrbanSea

tryfix wrote: »

This years top 2yo races seem to have gone by without anyone getting too excited about them. There's usually a buzz about the horses competing in them . Last year we had the hype about Frankel and Dream Ahead clashing in the Dewhurst, this year there was barely any excitement about any of the big 2y olds bar Maybe and the French horse Dabirisim. Still time for a hype merchant in Racing Post Trophy, but it's been a very quiet year for the 2y olds by normal standards.

None of the two year olds have blown me away this year,not there aren't good ones.

Look at Dream Ahead's Middle Park,probably the best two year old performance I've ever seen.

Pinesky wrote: »

Thank's Urban Sea , Frankie looked down and practically pulled up the horse outside the furlong marker. My issue with the ride was that he couldn't win from the position he was in after two furlongs

Point understood.

tryfix

UrbanSea wrote: »

Look at Dream Ahead's Middle Park,probably the best two year old performance I've ever seen.

You probably aren't old enough to have seen this one at the time, but Arazi winning the Breeders Cup Juvenile was pure magic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JNZn919v6BU


The next most impressive 2yo performance for me was Frankels Royal Lodge win, he was just in a different league that day.

Manntari trained by John Oxx won the Gp1 National stakes by 10L but he didn't train on as a three year old. It was a soft ground perfomance like Dream Aheads but it was still an amazing spectacle.

UrbanSea

I knew someone was going to say Arazi's win.
The year before I was born.

Nulty

I don't know what the criteria is for upgrading races. Is it the average rating of the horses taking part over a number of years or something like that? If it is then it won't be long before there's 5 group 1s on that card with the money on offer.

Frankel.....it just gets better and better. Thank god the Prince owns him and he's softening with age cause if he was a coolmore horse we'd never see him on the track again. Money isn't as big a deal to him anymore I'd imagine and he wants to see this horse run. Very fortunate circumstances. I hope he goes unbeaten but if he is beaten I don't mind if it's because of an off day - hate to see him regress.

ArmaniJeanss

UrbanSea wrote: »

What I really dislike about the whip rules is this: It's similar to Rewilding's race. If the jockey gets banned and loses his fee and win percentage,then surely the horse must lose the race.
If a horse is beaten a short head and is whipped the correct number of times but the winner has broken the rules but keeps the race,where is the fairness in that?
Soumillon loses 50k in prize money today but his horse gets to keep the race. I don't understand this,either apply the rules to horse and jockey or don't at all.

I'm not saying Soumillon whipping the horse one extra time in the final furlong meant he beat SYT,I mean there may be a photo where it could be struck twelve times but still win.

At the end of the day if that's a big group 1 race and say a Godolphin runner beats a Coolmore horse because he has whipped the horse so many times,the jockey won't care too much. Yes they will lose the fee but that short head could be the difference in a huge breeding career. They'd surely be looked after by the Sheikh.

When the last big changes to whip rules were made 12 years ago Robert Sangster made a decent point about disqualifications. Even if the horse is disqualified, the jockey banned, all prizemoney forfeited etc, he reckoned it would still not make a difference at the top level races.

Because 'Epsom Derby winner' or 'King George winner' (first past the post, disqualified) was something he could work with when it came to a stallions career, but 'second in Epsom Derby' is a much harder sell.

UrbanSea

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

When the last big changes to whip rules were made 12 years ago Robert Sangster made a decent point about disqualifications. Even if the horse is disqualified, the jockey banned, all prizemoney forfeited etc, he reckoned it would still not make a difference at the top level races.

Because 'Epsom Derby winner' or 'King George winner' (first past the post, disqualified) was something he could work with when it came to a stallions career, but 'second in Epsom Derby' is a much harder sell.

If the race was taken off them they can't advertise them as ''Epsom Derby Winner''.

At least if they're second past the post and win,they wouldn't have to describe that,they can put it down as ''Epsom Derby Winner'' in the book

ArmaniJeanss

UrbanSea wrote: »

If the race was taken off them they can't advertise them as ''Epsom Derby Winner''.

Why not? The National Consumer Agency is hardly going to protest about it on behalf of the international mare owners who are being potentially misled etc. And as long as they put (first past the post) in tiny letters somewhere in theirs ads/brochures it's arguably not even misleading.

His point was that the international breeder, the Kentucky stallion farm, the Japanese breeding industry would respect the horse who finishes first past the post and got disqualified for a breach of silly rules which only apply in the UK. Therefore disqualification would make no difference.
So he'd prefer a disqualified winner to the situation whereby the same horse only came second because the jockey stayed within the whip rules.

So this time next year "Born to Sea (winner Epsom Derby, first past the post, placed last for whip violation)" = €30K stud fee.
Whereas "Born to Sea (second in Epsom Derby)" = €10K stud fee.

UrbanSea

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Why not? The National Consumer Agency is hardly going to protest about it on behalf of the international mare owners who are being potentially misled etc. And as long as they put (first past the post) in tiny letters somewhere in theirs ads/brochures it's arguably not even misleading.

His point was that the international breeder, the Kentucky stallion farm, the Japanese breeding industry would respect the horse who finishes first past the post and got disqualified for a breach of silly rules which only apply in the UK. Therefore disqualification would make no difference.
So he'd prefer a disqualified winner to the situation whereby the same horse only came second because the jockey stayed within the whip rules.

So this time next year "Born to Sea (winner Epsom Derby, first past the post, placed last for whip violation)" = €30K stud fee.
Whereas "Born to Sea (second in Epsom Derby)" = €10K stud fee.

That's quite true

ArmaniJeanss

UrbanSea wrote: »

That's quite true

And I hope you approved of the horse I picked for my example :pac:

**********

One of the more interesting things about the whip debate is that it shows up the lack of a worldwide governing body despite it being a multi billion dollar sport.

Therefore each individual country can make up its own rules, and by extension can come under localised pressures from interest groups within its own borders (like the various 'stop animal cruelty' groups in the UK).

Whereas if there was a slow moving antiquarian organisation in charge like the IRB or the ICC or FIFA that set the worldwide rules, then the Brits could have hid behind them and said "sorry we'd love to do something and all, but we arent allowed act unilaterally so we'll just have to carry on as we are until FIFA eventually decides to do something. Shame really but what can ya do".

UrbanSea

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

And I hope you approved of the horse I picked for my example :pac:

**********

One of the more interesting things about the whip debate is that it shows up the lack of a worldwide governing body despite it being a multi billion dollar sport.

Therefore each individual country can make up its own rules, and by extension can come under localised pressures from interest groups within its own borders (like the various 'stop animal cruelty' groups in the UK).

Whereas if there was a slow moving antiquarian organisation in charge like the IRB or the ICC or FIFA that set the worldwide rules, then the Brits could have hid behind them and said "sorry we'd love to do something and all, but we arent allowed act unilaterally so we'll just have to carry on as we are until FIFA eventually decides to do something. Shame really but what can ya do".

Astrology will win the Derby next year :cool:

A good example some one made was that FIFA don't have a different offside rule in France as England,there needs to be a more universal ruleset.