I know the IAC are having problems with thier 139's.

Klunk001

But it could have been alot worse. For all those who argued for the EH 101.:D

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/29/marine_one_merlin_rejects_bought_by_canada/

Delancey

Didn't know the ' Merlin ' plan for Presidential transport was cancelled - what will be used instead ?

Agent P

Delancey wrote: »

Didn't know the ' Merlin ' plan for Presidential transport was cancelled - what will be used instead ?

I read awhile a go that the plan was to keep the current fleet of VH-3s and VH-60s for the next few years, and then start the competition again for the replacement.

Tenger

Agent P wrote: »

I read awhile a go that the plan was to keep the current fleet of VH-3s and VH-60s for the next few years, and then start the competition again for the replacement.

Yep. US procurement seems to be insane. They spend all that money on a fleet of 9 essentially custom made helicopters, and then decided to scrap the program.

HMX-1 (the Presidential squadron) currently has 11 VH-3Ds and 8 VH-60Ns

A $1.7Bn contract to replace these was offered in 2005.
By 2007, the estimated cost of developing and modifying the aircraft had risen by 40% to $2.4 billion and had passed the $4.2 billion expected for the production of the fleet. In March 2008, the program cost had risen and was projected to cost a total $11.2 billion, or about $400 million per helicopter.

Consider that an F-22 costs approx $150 per unit!!!

muppet01

a bit off thread,what has all this got to do with the 139's?
I still think they are just an expensive plaything of no use as a military chopper.

Klunk001

Bad and all that it is having your AW 139 fleet grounded bar one due to tail rotor blade problems for quite a while now, with no light at the end of the tunnel untill November at the earliest. The AW 101 which was accessed by the IAC at one time seems to be having bigger issues with a worldwide shortage of spares. I read a report recently it's taking the Canadians using 25 or 19 101's to keep four or three bases up and running respectively :eek:

BEASTERLY

Tenger wrote: »

Consider that an F-22 costs approx $150 per unit!!!

:eek: I have the cash here now, how do you want to me to pay.:pac:

newcavanman

For Augusta read FIAT . Italian crap . Typical Dept of Defence procurment cock up . If i was cynical i might suggest that at the time the AW139s were ordered, every builder in the country was flying in an A109 . Now if i was even more cynical, id think it was rather easy for an IAC pilot , leaving the service to convert on to an A109 ????????? We should have bought Blackhawks . They do exactly what it says on the tin . As for air sea rescue, i believe we were offered Westland sea kings as an add-on to the end of the RAF order for sea king HAR3s in the late 1980s . However it was decided not to proceed . Cant understand it myself as we are now using the same aircraft, only ours are 10 years older than they would have been if we had bought from westland .

westdub

newcavanman wrote: »

. As for air sea rescue, i believe we were offered Westland sea kings as an add-on to the end of the RAF order for sea king HAR3s in the late 1980s . However it was decided not to proceed . Cant understand it myself as we are now using the same aircraft, only ours are 10 years older than they would have been if we had bought from westland .

The Sikorsky S-61s that CHC operate for the Coast Guard are not the same as the Sea Kings operated by the UK Military... also they are due to be replaced by the Sikorsky S-92 soon.... And have nothing to do with the Air Corps....

newcavanman

The Sikorsky S-61s that CHC operate for the Coast Guard are not the same as the Sea Kings operated by the UK Military... also they are due to be replaced by the Sikorsky S-92 soon.... And have nothing to do with the Air Corps....
Quite correct, but i think yuou are missing the point . The civi S-61 used by CHC are a lot older than the RAF sea kings HAR3s , in fact i think the RAF ones were the very last seakings built . If there hadnt been that bally hoo with the winchmen then the SAR mission might have been kept by the IAC . That in turn might have led to the possibility of us having a proper fleet , size wise . At the moment we have a fleet of helis thatare only used by paramilitary forces worldwide, unless im mistaken . They appartently train to provide a full military capability, ie, door gunners, NVG , but the truth is they will never actually use it . Its a joke .

dechand

I dont get the joke , is it supposed to be funny?.

newcavanman

The joke is that as an island nation we should have a proper military aviation capability . I dont understand why we have the PC-9 s for training . I mean what are we training fixed wing military pilots for? The guys who are going to fly the cessnas or casas could just as easily do their training with a civilian flight training school at a much lower cost . Perhaps then the money could be put into operational capabilities that we might actually need and use . For example when we sent a battalion to chad, we already had the AW139s in service, but we didnt send them, instead we charterd local Mil 8s . What was the point in buying these helis then not using them , I have been told that they will never be used abroad, so is their sole purpose to play soldiers the odd time down in the glen and spend the rest of their time shuttling ministers etc around the place ? The one time they were called on for a life and death situation with that poor girl in Leitrim they werent able to respond . The service seems to be a training school for people to join aer lingus or ryanair after they retire .

westdub

newcavanman wrote: »

The one time they were called on for a life and death situation with that poor girl in Leitrim they werent able to respond . The service seems to be a training school for people to join aer lingus or ryanair after they retire .

What a complete lie..... the Air Corps have flown 60 Air Ambulance missions so far this year and have saved a lot of lives , just because the people that organised the one you refer to made a mess of it don't blame the Air Corps...

O hang on you dont know anything about them..... So why should I worry what you say.....

http://www.facebook.com/notes/irish-air-corps/air-corps-complete-60th-air-ambulance/294098110617819

dechand

In reply to newcaveman , id say well done to the guys in the AC who get the free training and go to the commercial side , theve done their 12 years service ,so they can move on .
Just because they were they winners in the open cadetship competions and got in on merit and ability why should they be victimised.
The unsuccesful ones went to daddy and got him to buy them their cpl for them.
Those without the cash and ability go on to be keyboard pilots and go on to be experts on all kinds of forums, moaning , bitching and backstabbing .
Keep on dreaming of cessna caravans and f16s in the fantasy AC that these guys are members of.

newcavanman

What a complete lie..... the Air Corps have flown 60 Air Ambulance missions so far this year and have saved a lot of lives , just because the people that organised the one you refer to made a mess of it don't blame the Air Corps...

O hang on you dont know anything about them..... So why should I worry what you say.....

No you have the wrong end of the stick . Firstly, it doesnt matter to joe public how many missions you did right, they only remember the ones that went wrong, and ill point you to the fisherman who drowned off howth harbour, approx 1992/93 . that was as a result of not having night qualified crew for the Dauphins which had been delivered 6-7 years earlier . They had to send for a wessex to come from Valley but the person was lost before it arrived . From what i have read, many of the air ambulance flight seem to beroutine flight s that could easily be performed by private operators . The purpose of the military is to operate in extreme conditions, when these private operators are not available . Also you apparently missed the point that the air ambulance lear jet is also used for jollies to the like of the malta airshow, or will you tell me there was a reasonable military reason for that??????????

dechand

Learjet went to Malta to build up hours for junior crew members on long distance multistop trips . better experience for them when they go into the commercial world,

balkanhawk

Wow Newcaveman!!

The one time they were called on for a life and death situation with that poor girl in Leitrim they werent able to respond . The service seems to be a training school for people to join aer lingus or ryanair after they retire .

Did you read the HIQA report? The aer corps were responding to an air ambulance at the time. the government jet was offered but not followed up on. The lack of HSE coordination and a possible delay in communications within the coast guard exacerbated the situation. "The one time....life and death situation", im sure the other 60 odd air ambulance flights involved critical patients so lets not insult the crews.

What is wrong with people leaving an organisation after they have served out their contract? they served their state for the required time. It happens with other professions so whats different?

The purpose of the military is to operate in extreme conditions, when these private operators are not available . Also you apparently missed the point that the air ambulance lear jet is also used for jollies to the like of the malta airshow, or will you tell me there was a reasonable military reason for that??????????

The purpose of the military is NOT to operate in extreme conditions, it is to do the tasks laid down by the government. One of those tasks being air ambulance as per an agreement with the HSE. You talk about the cost of training and then you want to out-source air ambulance. The the aer corps are doing a good job with the flights why out source it? that would only be another costly contract and there may not be the same flexibility that the military have. The navy were recently in the Baltic area, is that a Jolly? lets not forget that the crews spent a good while in malta during the Libya uprising so maybe it was a diplomatic invitation.

L1011

balkanhawk wrote: »

Did you read the HIQA report?

Of course he didn't, you can't be reactionary and ill-informed by actually reading anything other than a brutal tabloid report on an incident.

xflyer

The the aer corps are doing a good job with the flights why out source it? that would only be another costly contract and there may not be the same flexibility that the military have.

Any civilian contract will be more flexible than the military. Follow the contract or lose it. No such pressure on the Air Corps. No disrespect to their efforts but the Air Corps don't really provide Air Ambulance either, it's more patient transfer. A true Air Ambuance would be fully equipped for purpose. That cannot be said of their helicopters.

Far too much of the Air Corps' roles could be done more effectively and cheaply by civilian contractors. The expertise is out there and available. It would create jobs too.The reason they lost SAR is because they proved themselves incapable of providing it or even crewing it properly. They are not a 24/7 operation.

The Air Corps should stick to military tasks and only be used in emergencies.

westdub

xflyer wrote: »

No disrespect to their efforts but the Air Corps don't really provide Air Ambulance either, it's more patient transfer. A true Air Ambuance would be fully equipped for purpose. That cannot be said of their helicopters.


The Air Corps should stick to military tasks and only be used in emergencies.

The AW 139s are fully fitted out as air ambulance when needed....Just look at the pic in the link and tell me its not fully equipped for the role....

http://www.facebook.com/notes/irish-air-corps/air-corps-complete-60th-air-ambulance/294098110617819

newcavanman

Im sorry lads, but you are not getting the point . We have a Defence Force to support the civilian authorities andmaintain our neutrality . In my view the current forces are incapable of doing either properly . As we are talking about the IAC i wil concentrate on that . It just seems to me that we try to perform several different tasks, but never quite succeed in totally fulfilling them . We trainj fixed wing pilots to a high degree, but just not enough to operate fast jets . We have from what i know, quite a few pilots who switch from fixed to rotary wing and vice versa . In general these things do not happen in other air forces, pilots are streamed for the most appropriate role for them . I honestly think that it would be cheaper to train our plitos to PPL level with one of the private operators, then perhaps come to an arrangement with the brits or similar to allow our pilots to join their training streams. With their scale of ecomonimies it has to be cheaper than doing it ourselves , perhaps the funds , thus released , could be concentrated on operational roles . The simple truth is that our current aircraft will never be used in any potential combat roles . Im all for having a fully equiped vibrant air force, but i just think we are fooling ourselves at the moment . Now regarding air ambulance, in most parts of the world air ambulance aircraft are kept in that configuration on a permenant basis . We should have a dedicated air ambulance service in the country . However if the IAC wish to be seen as providing one then they must realise, that the likely greatest time of need for them as with terrestrial ambulances are in the unsociable hours . An earlier correspondent remarked on the number of air ambulance flights performed this year, but these are mainly patient transfers, i know, my cousin was one of the patients transfered to the UK. My cousin like many of the others could have been transfered in a civilain aiorcraft, it was an airport to airport flight, and during normal daytime hours . There is a reason many other countries privatise such services and it is because it is a lot cheaper . There is a sense of entitlement in the IAC like most civil service organisations that has no place in the real world. I have several friends, ground crew and pilots in the RAF and their terms and conditions are vastly inferior to the IAC . One man, a warrant office with nearly 30 years service, was told at the begining of november last year that he was going to the falklands in mid december for 4 months . There was no volunteering or complaining about it, he could just tell his wife and take the consequences . Thats what its like in a real military organisation .
When you contrast, a neighbour of mine, a corporal got a lump sum of over €20,000 after a 6 month tour in chad, comapared to the british army were squadies get approx £4000 lump sum after a 6 month tour in afghanistan . Im not saying we have to cut the arse out of the defence forces, merely that i think they could be run ina far better way, and thus do what they are supposed to do which is protect the country .

xflyer

Westdub, an air ambulance would be fitted like that, (and more) all the time, sitting on the ramp, warmed up and ready to go. It's patient transfer.