Query: He built on my boundary wall, did he need planning permission?

branners69

Hey,

The next door neighbour (semi attached) built a 15ft x 18ft extension on the back of his house 4 years ago. He, without our permission, took down the boundary wall and built a 10ft-11ft wall replacing the boundary wall. Whilst his guttering and everything is on his side I fear that the foundations are on our side. Hence my problem, I now want to build an extension. I don’t want to attach on to what was the boundary wall but I also don’t want to have to come in 2ft because of his foundations.

So my first question is who do I contact first to start the ball rolling. Do I contact a solicitor who will appoint a surveyor or do I contact a survey who will know a solicitor?

Would my neighbour have needed planning permission to build on the boundary wall?

Any advice much appreciated!

Branners

sydthebeat

so did he build a new independent boundary wall... or is the wall as exists the side wall of his extension?

branners69

sydthebeat wrote: »

so did he build a new independent boundary wall... or is the wall as exists the side wall of his extension?

The wall is the side wall of his extension.

caesarthechimp

Related to this query...
Assuming the neighbour's extension is (just about) on their side of the boundary, with no windows facing across, are there any cases people know of where a new extension is built to butt up against the neighbours one, by mutual agreement. The benefits of this would be to make both extensions warmer. Like having an extended party wall instead of two external walls. I'm guessing there would have to be some sort of closed cavity directly above the line of the old boundary wall, for legal reasons. The two roofs would have to join up somehow, if they were at the same height and pitch.

muffler

branners69 wrote: »

The next door neighbour (semi attached) built a 15ft x 18ft extension on the back of his house 4 years ago. He, without our permission, took down the boundary wall and built a 10ft-11ft wall replacing the boundary wall............I fear that the foundations are on our side.

If you dont mind me asking - where were you when your neigbour was doing all this work?

Carpenter

Solicitor solicitor solicitor seen this a few times it is now a civil matter he cannot do what he did .

SimonPRepublic

I would definitely take legal action but also clarify if he built the extension in line with the planning permission. If not report him to the Council's planning department who could take enforcement action in relation to the development, though if it was four years ago you may have to move fast because if it is anything like the UK then 4 years is the limit in relation to enforcement action.

Poor Uncle Tom

SimonPRepublic wrote: »

I would definitely take legal action but also clarify if he built the extension in line with the planning permission. If not report him to the Council's planning department who could take enforcement action in relation to the development, though if it was four years ago you may have to move fast because if it is anything like the UK then 4 years is the limit in relation to enforcement action.

From reading the OP there is no planning permission. It's not like the UK and 4 years does not come into it here, it's 7 years here to take enforcement.

Everything may be done properly regarding the planning laws, but there may be a civil matter regarding boundary issues.

You need to contact your solicitor and an engineer/architect/AT/surveyor to do an on-site report and find out if there are in fact any issues to be addressed.

Mellor

The boundary isn't a wall, its an imaginary line. It's not yours either, its exists between the two sites.
There is a chance that his extension exists on this side of the boundary, although right up to it. The foundations may or may not come across the boundary. if they do they could be sized big enough to handle your load too.

The first thing I would suggest is to hire a good local Architechural Tech/engineer/architect/surveyor and have a chat. Then talk to the neighbour about what way it was built

branners69

muffler wrote: »

If you dont mind me asking - where were you when your neigbour was doing all this work?

On holidays!! When we left the boundary wall had been taken down but we were assured they were laying foundations on their side and would rebuild the boundary wall and build their extension inside of it.

Came back and contacted Dublin City Council who were useless.

There is no planning permission and the neighbour is completely unapproachable.

@Carpenter: If you have seen this before may I ask what the outcome was? Did the extension have to come down?

Carpenter

branners69 wrote: »

On holidays!! When we left the boundary wall had been taken down but we were assured they were laying foundations on their side and would rebuild the boundary wall and build their extension inside of it.

Came back and contacted Dublin City Council who were useless.

There is no planning permission and the neighbour is completely unapproachable.

@Carpenter: If you have seen this before may I ask what the outcome was? Did the extension have to come down?

No the wall was made 1 hr fire rated and the new extension was built from that another case I know of is still in the court,s very messy and costing a few euro I can tell you the bottom line is you have to speak to him/her even if they are not nice to talk too and put your cards on the table if you 2 do not agree you will end up in court and it will end in tears Pm me if you want

sydthebeat

branners69 wrote: »

On holidays!! When we left the boundary wall had been taken down but we were assured they were laying foundations on their side and would rebuild the boundary wall and build their extension inside of it.

Came back and contacted Dublin City Council who were useless.

There is no planning permission and the neighbour is completely unapproachable.

@Carpenter: If you have seen this before may I ask what the outcome was? Did the extension have to come down?

if you are planning on building now, why not keep amicable and approach your neighbour and state that you intend to build, and that you intend to use the wall as exists as part of your structure.
In this case, everyone wins.... theres no need for a loss of space to you by the requirement to build a new wall.

Beforehand, in any case, definitely get a architect / technician on board to advise and to prepare drawings. Then when you approach your neighbour, bring your architect along to relay any fears that the neighbour has. If the neighbour becomes extremely rigid, then you can pull out the smoking gun re the legal problems with what he has done.

Also, get a solicitor on board to prepare agreement letters between you and make sure everything is agreed with your neighbour prior to any work being carried out.

muffler

Im trying to get my head around this but there is still a few details Id like the OP to clarify.

Your neighbour removed the original boundary wall. Did he (a) build a new "stand alone" boundary wall to replace this or (b) did he build the side wall of his extension on the boundary line or (c) did he build the boundary wall again and then build the extension on his side of the boundary wall?

.

Sgt Pepper 64

muffler wrote: »

Im trying to get my head around this but there is still a few details Id like the OP to clarify.

Your neighbour removed the original boundary wall. Did he (a) build a new "stand alone" boundary wall to replace this or (b) did he build the side wall of his extension on the boundary line or (c) did he build the boundary wall again and then build the extension on his side of the boundary wall?

.

From what the OP has said, I read it as (b)

To the OP, I say its not as bad as you think, in fact I think you have more to gain because you have a proper wall that you might be able to build off yourself, saving you money.

Anyone can build a 40m2 without Planning

"Planning permission is not required for building a house or an extension (e.g. conservatory) of less than 40m2 (430ft2)"
http://www.justlanded.com/english/Ireland/Ireland-Guide/Property/Building-Your-Own-Home

The foundations are more than likely on his side anyway.

Apart from not sticking to the original plan and not telling you (Probably the builder talked him into it), theres not much you can do, and really you can now build off that wall and if it affects his extension - its his problem!
Thats why its best to always leave a boundary wall, so your neightbour CANT build off it and possibly weaken the new extension.

Poor Uncle Tom

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

I say its not as bad as you think, in fact I think you have more to gain because you have a proper wall that you might be able to build off yourself, saving you money.

It's not certain that this is the case.

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

Anyone can build a 40m2 without Planning

"Planning permission is not required for building a house or an extension (e.g. conservatory) of less than 40m2 (430ft2)"
http://www.justlanded.com/english/Ireland/Ireland-Guide/Property/Building-Your-Own-Home

This is wrong and misleading, you cannot build a house of any size without planning permission. You can however build an extension onto the rear of an existing house up to 40m2 without planning permission under strict conditions and provisions.

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

The foundations are more than likely on his side anyway.

Total guesswork.

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

Apart from not sticking to the original plan and not telling you (Probably the builder talked him into it),

Wild speculation.

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

theres not much you can do,

Wrong again, and the OP should be informed of all the options. If part of the neighbours extension is built on the OP's land within the last 7 years and if the OP will not tolerate it there, it will need to be taken down. The issue can be forced through the courts.

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

and really you can now build off that wall and if it affects his extension - its his problem!

That's just adding problems to problems.

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

Thats why its best to always leave a boundary wall, so your neightbour CANT build off it and possibly weaken the new extension.

First piece of sense you've made.

harry21

muffler wrote: »

Im trying to get my head around this but there is still a few details Id like the OP to clarify.

Your neighbour removed the original boundary wall. Did he (a) build a new "stand alone" boundary wall to replace this or (b) did he build the side wall of his extension on the boundary line or (c) did he build the boundary wall again and then build the extension on his side of the boundary wall?

.

Actually I think it is d) The OP's neighbour removed the wall (which we are assuming was on the boundary line), poured foundations up to the boundary, then built new side wall set back from the boundary line.

OP - do you know where the old boundary line lies? Can you not dig a few trial holes and see if the neighbours extention crosses the boundary line? It sounds like the foundation is poured up to the boundary line becuase you say their facia and gutters are on their side of the boundary line. Do they stick out 300mm?

If you don't want to contact/talk to the neighbours, just pour on your side and build away!

Mellor

harry21 wrote: »

Actually I think it is d) The OP's neighbour removed the wall (which we are assuming was on the boundary line), poured foundations up to the boundary, then built new side wall set back from the boundary line.

It sounds like the foundation is poured up to the boundary line becuase you say their facia and gutters are on their side of the boundary line. Do they stick out 300mm?

That what it sounds like to me based on the fact that the gutters are on his own side.

There has been a lot of bad posts in this thread, satating what what the neighbour did was illegal, when it prob wasn't.

The foundations may or may not be over the line.



branners69, roughy how far is it from the side extension wall to the centre line of where the boundary was or should be.

branners69

muffler wrote: »

Im trying to get my head around this but there is still a few details Id like the OP to clarify.

Your neighbour removed the original boundary wall. Did he (a) build a new "stand alone" boundary wall to replace this or (b) did he build the side wall of his extension on the boundary line or (c) did he build the boundary wall again and then build the extension on his side of the boundary wall?

.

Its b, he knocked the boundary wall and rebuilt it within his extension. The boundary wall is now the supporting wall of his extension. In regard to the foundation. When we returned home there was fresh concrete on our side of the new wall, 4" from the new wall to the concrete which had been there before. So four inches of our concrete had been cut and replaced with fresh concrete which I am assuming carry on down under the grass. When we came back the concrete had set and new soil was covering the foundations.

Mellor wrote: »

branners69, roughy how far is it from the side extension wall to the centre line of where the boundary was or should be.

Not too sure I understand the question but he has built on the boundary wall, so there is no boundary wall, just his extension?

muffler

branners69 wrote: »

Whilst his guttering and everything is on his side I fear that the foundations are on our side.

branners69 wrote: »

Its b, he knocked the boundary wall and rebuilt it within his extension.

This is the part that's been confusing me. What type of roof has he on his extension....a lean to? If its a standard "A" type roof then surely the soffit and gutters are over-hanging on your side of the boundary.

branners69 wrote: »

built a 10ft-11ft wall replacing the boundary wall.

Unless its a lean to type roof with the high side/ridge nearest your property I cant see it being that height. Maybe it's a 1.5 storey?

Mellor

I'm with muffler, the way you describe it is very unclear.

Poor Uncle Tom

A parapet wall?

wush06

Can you stick a photo or two up.

harry21

Agreed - I think a photo is required.

Regardless of the construction type, if the outer skin of the new wall is on the boundary, there must be some material overhanging onto your property.

Mellor

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

A parapet wall?

My first thought, but the mention of gutters didn't fit.
Unless there meant that its a parapet and the gutter is hidden behind.

harry21 wrote: »

Agreed - I think a photo is required.

Regardless of the construction type, if the outer skin of the new wall is on the boundary, there must be some material overhanging onto your property.

Not true. It's possible to build on the boundary without overhang. Although most of the time there will be small bit from the copping stone, it can be done without.

TBH, its over the top making an issue out of that little bit.

Curly Judge

Assuming the site was marked out properly when the original houses were built then your neighbor had no business crossing the center line of the boundary wall.
The center line is the key here.
If it suits you to use his wall now to construct your own edifice then by all means do so as it is probably the cheapest way of restoring the status quo.
Try to stay out of court by all means possible, short of letting him walk all over you.
Check out the fire stopping regulations if your building is going to butt directly on to his.

Poor Uncle Tom

Mellor wrote: »

the copping stone, its over the top.

Hehe you made a funny.....

Curly Judge wrote: »

Assuming the site was marked out properly when the original houses were built then your neighbor had no business crossing the center line of the boundary wall.
The center line is the key here.

We don't know that the boundary was crossed, everything is speculation until then.

Curly Judge wrote: »

If it suits you to use his wall now to construct your own edifice then by all means do so......
Try to stay out of court by all means possible,

There's a contradiction there straight away.

Curly Judge wrote: »

Check out the fire stopping regulations if your building is going to butt directly on to his.

As well as all the rest of the Building Regulations applicable to all buildings.

deandean

I looked at the boundary wall issue about 15 years ago, at that time IIRC 'First neighbour to build on the boundary wall, gets the boundary wall.' Of course there mustn't be anything overhanging into your garden.

harry21

Mellor wrote: »

Not true. It's possible to build on the boundary without overhang. Although most of the time there will be small bit from the copping stone, it can be done without.

TBH, its over the top making an issue out of that little bit.

This is what I was on about, granted you could make it flush... so technically you are correct..... oh that hurt to say .

Curly Judge

Mellor wrote: »

My first thought, but the mention of gutters didn't fit.
Unless there meant that its a parapet and the gutter is hidden behind.


Not true. It's possible to build on the boundary without overhang. Although most of the time there will be small bit from the copping stone, it can be done without.

TBH, its over the top making an issue out of that little bit.

The majority of boundary walls, in my experience, are built of either 4" or 6"
blocks built on their edge.
If measured properly the boundary would be straight along the middle of the block so that half the width of the block is in one persons property and half in the other.
Even if the boundary was not measured accurately, and had "drifted" a couple of inches one way or the other during construction, the center of the wall is now the de facto boundary if it has stood undisputed for a certain number of years. [Either 7 or 12,I'm not sure/]
If the above is correct then the OP's neighbor has no business placing a similar width block on that line to build his extension, because by doing so, he is encroaching on someone else's property.
Of course, good neighbors can do a lot of things by agreement but that seems not to be the case here.

branners69

I had an engineer look at it and he said the neighbour was cheeky not putting up a parapet wall which we could both build onto. But I can still build my extension, he will build a wall flush up against the current wall which will eat into the size of my extension but for the sake of 4 or so inches I dont fancy going down the legal route. He said I could but it wouldnt be worth it and it could cost a fortune!

So many thanks all for the input and replies!