Do you believe in "Second Chances"?

TheyKnowMyIP

Assuming you haven't killed or seriously injured someone, would you consider the concept of rehabilitation to be a reality or a myth? As a society, we seem quite content with double standards, not to mention kicking people in the head while they are down without any regard to the circumstances surrounding the conduct. speaking metaphorically, of course. Is the "Second Chance" a myth? I get the impression Society is intentionally designed to eliminate as many people as possible from leading productive lives. At least the Eugenicists were upfront about their disgusting views. Any takers?

tony 2 tone

Why, what did you do?

Very vague question.


Second chance for crimes, like kicking someone in the head, as you put it? Probably not. It takes a certain level of evil in someone to do that in the first place.

I wouldn't mind a judicial system that let everyone off with their first crime, provided the second crime was met with a seriously over the top punishment. That way you can make your mistake, but you learn from that mistake and you never do it again.


Though I don't know if that's what you're even talking about?

Einhard

No.

Yes.

TheyKnowMyIP

tony 2 tone wrote: »

Why, what did you do?

Fines man, bloodly fines. Rob millions and nothing will come about. Small Bananna's will lead to big consequences though:) Tis the way of the world I guess.

Einhard

Is this anything to do with the fact they they know your IP?:D

TheyKnowMyIP

The question: Is judicial rehabilitation a myth? I think so. Double standards across the board. Bertie deserves hanging at this point, yet gets away scott free. Funny world, Son.

Godsentme

tell us about the Eugenicists and their disgusting views. A bit of filth always gets more hits:D

Einhard

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

The question: Is judicial rehabilitation a myth? I think so. Double standards across the board. Bertie deserves hanging at this point, yet gets away scott free. Funny world, Son.

Well Bertie hasn't taken part in a rehabilitation prgramme, so they can hardly be deemed useless for failing to change a man who took no part in them. It's like saying exercise is useless as a means of losing weight, and referencing in support a morbidly obese man who has never been physically active.

pragmatic1

Tbh not really. Some people can change their life around but for most it'll never happen.

TheyKnowMyIP

What the feck did I just write? Talk about talking ****e.

starbelgrade

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

I get the impression Society is intentionally designed to eliminate as many people as possible from leading productive lives.

I don't think society is intentionally designed at all.

If anything it's a hotch-potch of ideas, morals & immorals that kind of just happens and evolves or regresses as time goes by.

TheyKnowMyIP

starbelgrade wrote: »

I don't think society is intentionally designed at all.

If anything it's a hotch-potch of ideas, morals & immorals that kind of just happens and evolves or regresses as time goes by.

Would explain the lack of across the board consistency alright. Try tell that to the conspiracists though;)

InkSlinger67

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIJDyUEsDmY

Chuck Stone

Prison and the justice system doesn't really rehabilitate people imo. It just a place to discuss and plan and make the contacts to do it right the second time.

TheyKnowMyIP

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Prison and the justice system doesn't really rehabilitate people imo. It just a place to discuss and plan and make the contacts to do it right the second time.

Fo Sho

paddyandy

It's very easy to preach forgiveness for a wrong not done to oneself that's easy. O N L Y the victim has the power to forgive and nobody else.No nobody else.Ii's very irritating to hear people say "OH! we have to move on"or "You must forgive"When i am wronged i will forgive when i am ready and not before!!!

newmug

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Assuming you haven't killed or seriously injured someone, would you consider the concept of rehabilitation to be a reality or a myth? As a society, we seem quite content with double standards, not to mention kicking people in the head while they are down without any regard to the circumstances surrounding the conduct. speaking metaphorically, of course. Is the "Second Chance" a myth? I get the impression Society is intentionally designed to eliminate as many people as possible from leading productive lives. At least the Eugenicists were upfront about their disgusting views. Any takers?

I think the opposite. Society has no plan or design, and as such is chaotic. To answer your question though, yes, I do believe in second chances. I believe they exist, and I believe they work most of the time. Say, for example, a paedo is convicted of raping a child. I believe he should get 50 years in jail, and then be let out for his second chance.

starbelgrade

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Prison and the justice system doesn't really rehabilitate people imo. It just a place to discuss and plan and make the contacts to do it right the second time.

That one last job, where they get all the boys together for one more time to pull of the biggest heist of their lives that will set them up forever.

I've seen that film too.

It was great.

TheyKnowMyIP

starbelgrade wrote: »

That one last job, where they get all the boys together for one more time to pull of the biggest heist of their lives that will set them up forever.

I've seen that film too.

It was great.

Isn't that the one with bradd pitt in it? I thought he was daychent in Fight Club. Actually, on second thought, no I didn't.

Senna

I dont really believe in second chances, unless its very minor. If you have done something "horrible" why the hell should you be given a second chance.

Einhard

starbelgrade wrote: »

That one last job, where they get all the boys together for one more time to pull of the biggest heist of their lives that will set them up forever.

I've seen that film too.

It was great.

And the cop died two days before retirement. And he wasn't even s;posed to be working that day either.

mackg

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Prison and the justice system doesn't really rehabilitate people imo. It just a place to discuss and plan and make the contacts to do it right the second time.

One or two lads I knew growing up went to prison in their early twenties, they came out and both are straight since. Saying that I know of people who got out and went straight back into it too, do people deserve a second chance; yes IMO. Whether the justice system in this country works in such a way as to encourage people to change their ways is a different question, and I would say no, as I said earlier I know people who have gone straight but that was purely down to them not the wonders of the Irish prison system.

As for society being designed to eliminate people from leading productive lives, I would again say no for the reason star outlined.

TheyKnowMyIP

Senna wrote: »

I dont really believe in second chances, unless its very minor. If you have done something "horrible" why the hell should you be given a second chance.

Consult the dictionary for the word "rehabilitation". Gets tricky when violence and the like is involved. There is a double standard though. Bankers appear to get away with "horrible" crimes while us regular folk must pay lip service to everybody from parking fines to Murder. Bahh.

pragmatic1

Senna wrote: »

I dont really believe in second chances, unless its very minor. If you have done something "horrible" why the hell should you be given a second chance.

I agree. Its sad but some lives are just a waste.

Chuck Stone

mackg wrote: »

As for society being designed to eliminate people from leading productive lives, I would again say no for the reason star outlined.

The US justice system may not have been deliberately designed to elimate the 7.25 million people involved with it but it certainly creates a hell of a lot of self interest in those who have a vested interest in keeping the number of people becomming invloved with it high.

"Prison–industrial complex" (PIC) is a term used to attribute the rapid expansion of the US inmate population to the political influence of private prison companies and businesses that supply goods and services to government prison agencies.

The term is analogous to the military industrial complex that President Dwight D. Eisenhower warned of in his famous 1961 farewell address. Such groups include corporations that contract prison labor, construction companies, surveillance technology vendors, lawyers, and lobhy groups that represent them.

Activists have described the prison industrial complex as perpetuating a belief that imprisonment is a quick fix to underlying social problems such as homelessness, unemployment, drug addiction, mental illness, and illiteracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_complex

TheyKnowMyIP

The whole troy davis case sparked my this. Maybe not to the degree I talked about though. They didn't actually prove he killed yer one. However, they got there prosecution number. On the flipside, must have cost the taxpayer a huge amount. Who to believe?:)

TheyKnowMyIP

pragmatic1 wrote: »

I agree. Its sad but some lives are just a waste.

Tell that to the bleeding heart liberals. It's a shame how some people get shafted though, through no fault of their own:( Life is a big game folks. Some aspects you have no control over. Count yourself lucky with what you have.

pragmatic1

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Tell that to the bleeding heart liberals. It's a shame how some people get shafted though, through no fault of their own:( Life is a big game folks. Some aspects you have no control over. Count yourself lucky with what you have.

I am a bleeding heart liberal but my liberalism ends with scumbags.

bnt

There's the concept of rehabilitation, and then there's the reality. To truly rehabilitate someone would be more difficult and costly than the current practice, I think. It would also require more draconian powers; what if, despite all reasonable measures, someone genuinely can not be rehabilitated?

If I were in authority, I'd be tempted to start thinking about unreasonable measures. This is what the book and film A Clockwork Orange was about; a habitual criminal is brainwashed out of his criminal tendencies, but the process affects him deeply in other ways, and his "rights" become a topic for discussion in the media. If you could remove a person's nasty traits, would that person still be "himself" afterwards? If you have a criminal personality, do you have a human right to be a criminal?

TheyKnowMyIP

Seems to be a bit of a revolving door. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8558802.stm Why waste so much on people who are either unwilling to improve or don't pose much of a threat?

p

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Tell that to the bleeding heart liberals.

Did we suddenly move to the other side of the atlantic?



It's not a clear-cut thing, as it's often made out to be.

It's easy to say, "let's be hardline on crime" but the result of that is increasing prison populations and the massive cost associated with that, both economically and socially (fatherless children etc...)

If you say "let's rehabilitate" people will complain about all the cases that show the system is being 'soft' of criminals. The press will always find stories about offenders with consoles, or something similar. What's the alternative, put them in a work house?


For me, if we're spending the money, I'd rather spend it on trying to rehabilitate people, as I think you're hedging your bets in a more positive way. For me, I'm happy to accept that we'll waste money on reoffenders, for the few offenders that we save. Crime is often generational, so I think changing culture, is a much better goal.

pragmatic1 wrote: »

I am a bleeding heart liberal but my liberalism ends with scumbags.

I feel them same in my heart, and though I hate 'scumbags' personally, I've tried to understand how maybe I'm a bit biased

We all form habits and rules around social behaviour. If you grow up in a rough neighbourhood, and all your friends are rough, you really don't have many options. You get taught, through trial, error and beatings, that being aggressive first is safer, than being open, gets you beaten, and that institutions (like the gardai) are there to mess you and your family up. If you're growing up in that environment, that's your truth, that's your reality, and it's a long long journey to come around to 'normality'.

There was some great programs on channel 4 a few years back about mentoring programs for released young offenders, and it was clear to see many 'scumbags' where merely reacting to their environment. Simply labelling someone as a scumbag is easy, doesn't solve the problem though.



Edit: anyone interested in informing themselves about about prisons, i'd well recommend reading some of this. Amazing report and suggestions based on a large indepth study with psychologies & architects on how to design better prisons:
http://www.participle.net/images/uploads/Learning_Works.pdf (very large filesize, so may take awhile)

LH Pathe

I only believe in em if the original failing / dismissal was genuinely unjustified. or maybe if we've wallowed long enough genuinely regretting it - like 10yrs minimum.. cos then I'd get another stab at life haha

paddyandy

Apathy dressed up in it's Sunday Best likes to shout "forgive"when they themselves did not suffer anything and don't really care either.

The vast majority of non serious criminals give up crime by there late twenties, so if you are talking about non serious crime its not so much that they got a second chance its more that they have grown up a bit i.e. they gave up criminal behaviour not changed because they got a second chance.

paddyandy

I believe we start to get sense around 30 depending on the individual.If there's a man in the house (there is'nt always) it should begin in adolescence.

foxyboxer

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

The question: Is judicial rehabilitation a myth? I think so. Double standards across the board. Bertie deserves hanging at this point, yet gets away scott free. Funny world, Son.

He didn't get away scott free. His reputation is in tatters, his credibility shot. For someone in the public eye, reputation is everything.

faceman

Of course people deserve a second chance, even those who commit serious crimes. Obviously the guilty must show remorse and be of no risk to re-commit the crimes.