What if WWE or TNA had strong refs?

jaykhunter

What would happen if WWE (or TNA) referees weren't tinchy ballerinas, but big dudes like John McCarthy or Herb Dean? i.e. they couldn't be pushed around or KOed for just the right amount of time. Nobody messes with the UFC refs, it's their law & rules.

Think of how differently WWE would have to book! The visual statement it'd make, a forceful change in how american wrestling is fundamentally booked - promising your fans clean finishes, no more run-ins and contrived screwjob finishes.

Whatcha reckon?

Cherry_Cola

TNA had that guy Slick Johnson who was a big guy, I can't remember if he was booked any differently to other referees though.

I guess the smaller guys are also used as a means of accentuating the "larger than life" performers. I think having a bigger, no bs ref style would be very interesting.

I would love to see a submission ending whereby the ref has to dive in to break it up as opposed to having 20 refs and security guys trying to break it up. It would add a bit of intensity to the whole thing.

ayatollah

always thought this - it'd make the writers have to be more creative with their finishes to matches

so thatll never happen - heaven forbid they ever do anything creative

starviewadams

Nobody buys a ticket to see a ref,their role should be kept as minimal as possible in the ring and in storylines.

rovert

WWE already did this 07-08ish and this happened. All referees had to call matches as if they were real. HAD to count pins regardless of circumstances, DQ if someone was taking the piss on a 5 count etc. They were told the finish.

Which resulted in things like this:

On an August 2008 edition of ECW, the main event was ECW Champion Mark Henry and Matt Hardy vs. The Miz and John Morrison. Halfway through the match, Matt delivered a Side Effect to Morrison, who as a result suffered a flash knockout. Hardy went for the cover, and Miz was supposed to break up the pin. However, he missed his cue and Morrison was unable to kickout by himself. The referee had no choice but to make the three count and end the match prematurely. The match ended in confusion and it could be seen on everybody's faces. Three days later, the referee (Wes Adams) was released from his WWE contract due to the incident.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6fayc_ecw-12-8-08-matt-hardy-mark-henry-v_sport

CMpunked

I always thought that hebner came across as a "Take no bs" kinda ref when i was growing up.
He wasnt afraid to push a wrestler back if they pushed him. Even though he wasnt big or tough, the sense of respect was kinda there in matches, i thought.

rossie1977

nick patrick is a big dude, over 6ft and over 200lb

starviewadams

Actually liked Patrick as a heel pro-alliance ref during the Invasion angle in 2001.

jaykhunter

starviewadams wrote: »

Nobody buys a ticket to see a ref,their role should be kept as minimal as possible in the ring and in storylines.

Exactly. Tiny refs that get KO'ed with one blow for a convenient amount of time is so contrived at this stage. This cuts them out of storylines.

rovert i'm not talking about keeping refs clueless to the finish -- an idiotic move that was summarily dropped -- i'm talking about not involving ref bumps/run-in outsmarting in the scripted finish. Refs are "normal" blokes that won't be crossed and have the respect of the fighters, just like in UFC, not the lemmings they are now and have been forever in pro wrestling.

rossie, yes nick patrick was real large guy but he was as weak and pathetic as all the other refs (see Bret's punch at 97 Starrcade - my youtube account closed otherwise i'd post it!). Imagine if nobody f**ked with referees! Finishes would be clean all of the time! Run-ins have lost all meaning and are just excuses to lengthen feuds. Imagine if they had to book new finishes, and keep wrestlers push going!

flahavaj

It would make being a heel much harder straight away if they were adequately punished for every dastardly trick they pulled. Heels drawing heat by acting the boll*x behind the ref's back has and always will be one of the fundamentals of pro wrestling.

The gimmick of clean finishes in every match and wrestlers getting punished for cheating has been done for over a decade in ROH anyway.

jaykhunter

that's a great point about ROH - how are they at building heels? i know they're great at replenishing main event talent so that's all that matters really...forced to have more clean wins, run-ins mean more due to the consequences...no downside!

flahavaj

jaykhunter wrote: »

that's a great point about ROH - how are they at building heels? i know they're great at replenishing main event talent so that's all that matters really...forced to have more clean wins, run-ins mean more due to the consequences...no downside!

In the early days when the whole clean finish thing was really pushed strongly they barely had an clear face-heel divide. After a while it made the shows a bit bland and samey, though when a really good heel like Hero or Punk came along it made them seem all the more special.

When I was watching ROH avidly one of the major problems was the mid card was all very bland and samey as all they had to go on was a load of similar generic characters getting wins over esch other. Theres only so many times a feud can get by on the basis of "competition" and trading clean wins back and forth before it gets a bit dull and repetitive.

Pro wrestling needs to have screwy wins to stay interesting. Its a very easy way of getting the audiennce on the side of a face if he has a gebuine grievance at the heel. You say thaast screwy finishes has gotten old, but every win being clean and gained on the basis of pure "wrestling ability" would get old even faster. In an ideal world you strike the right balance between the two so that the dodgy cheating win seems rare enough to be an important event. If anythng having clean win all the time would make the likes of Cena look even more invincible as his place on the card dictates that he's pretty much better than everyone else on the roster.

jaykhunter

Good stuff. I'm thinking that "bland babyface" is set by two problems which i feel is endemic to TNA and ROH - that some people are trying to get over based on their moveset - a very face thing to do (flips etc) and if they can't cut a promo, then they'll be bland whatever u do. Like Daniels for example, awful on promo, same wrestling heel or face, turns bland. All you have left is better booking.

i do think the simplified code of honor is a great idea. i guess you could marry the two and say "if you're caught cheating - automatic fine and 1 month suspension" or something like that.

tbf cena does win clean all the time and is held above everyone else in the company! anyway screwy finishes just draw out a feud that there's no particular reason to do so (besides holding off until the ppv) but if the match is booked right, both men can come out the winner.

look at Sin Cara vs ADR on SD - first time ever? i'm not sure, but this got no build and a 5 minute blow off in a clean win. Who did that help? What if they held off until they taped shows in mexico, and put it on as the main event in a 20 minute stormer, hotly contested match, ADR wins via the same finish? both get over.

Anyway i just think it'd be a very interesting experiment if WWE or TNA tried out having "normal" refs; forcing them to book fresher and give them gravity.

Machismo Fan

jaykhunter wrote: »

Like Daniels for example, awful on promo, same wrestling heel or face, turns bland. All you have left is better booking.

Really? Daniels' heel work has always been fantastic in TNA. Whether it be the last two months where he's been awesome or his '05 heel work which was superb he's always consistently delivered in terms of both work and promos. He always nails his heel character to a tee.

On topic, being honest I don't think stronger refs would make any real difference in terms of anything. The best referees are the ones you only see when they want you to see them and it's probably best that way.

jaykhunter

I just think it'd make a great aesthetic and it's a show of faith by the company to do clean finishes/deliver on what they promise. They've been doing it recently, like losing tag matches clean in main events is no bad thing.

off-topic, i think Daniels is generally a very poor promo, no charisma. It also annoys me that when he did his Fallen Angel gimmick (which is awesome look/name), it was purely in the name, he didn't wrestle or cut promos relative to his gimmick. So it's just the name.

I think the strong-ref would've been much easier to implement in TNA when Angle/Joe were doing their MMA thing. But they could do it now in WWE with the walkout/respect angle. Stuff like breaking up the submissions as soon as it happens lends realism to the potential damage of the move. Also thought Ken Shamrock being the special ref at WM13 (Submission Austin/Hart) was a great addition. It's annoying to see 10 people having to break up the wrestlers. It's a bit much, but also in keeping with WWE's ridiculous exaggerating these days (Cody's mask cost $20,000; Miz/Truth get fined 1/4 million each....)

sockmo

was great to see wwe ref Scott Armstrong retaliate to the miz the other week, i thought this would end up in storyline but they just seemed to pass it off as a non-event

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHSv_rfXiYc

MMAIRELANDFAN

I'd like if they got big ref's who beat the wrestlers up when they had to defend themselves

That would be great crack

rossie1977

jaykhunter wrote: »

Imagine if nobody f**ked with referees! Finishes would be clean all of the time! Run-ins have lost all meaning and are just excuses to lengthen feuds. Imagine if they had to book new finishes, and keep wrestlers push going!

lex luger vs yokozuna wrestlemania 10

gnfnrhead

I hate that the referee's get knocked out cold with the slightest touch. I much prefere the rarely used hit that takes the referee out for a short period (like he got poked in the eye or something so isnt paying attention for a few seconds) and allows the heel to cheat during that time. It wouldnt work for everyone, but lets say Flair against someone, the ref gets a finger in his eye, Flair instantly hits his opponent with a low blow and is ready to make a pin attempt before the ref has even noticed something has happened. Thats not going to work too well for Mark Henry as thats not his character so you'd have to come up with a different way for him to cheat.

Either way, they need to get stronger referee's. It's okay if they get knocked out from time to time, provided they are like Earl Hebner and stand up for themselves the rest of the time. Referee's arent supposed to be pussys who fall over unconscious with a strong breeze. The vast majority of them are a joke which is the opposite of what they should be imo.

CorkonianRebel

They should bring back Mick Foley as Mankind as a ref complete with Mr. Socko and white shirt with really bad painted black stripes! I always thought he was hilarious trying to be a ref!!:D He has hinted he may be coming back anyway