National Dairy Show

dairygene

Anyone heading to Millstreet next Saturday? Normally a nice relaxed day out.

whelan1

would love to go but cork is a bit far away

dairygene

Location is a bit of a problem alright but that said, venue itself is good. Not many places in Ireland you can put something like it under 1 roof.

keep going

Went to the dairy show today and i feel like the little boy who says the emperor has clothes.Why are there so few cows there.Of the cows that were there how are these cows the best cows in ireland.They might be the best american or dutch cows in ireland but not the best irish.Most people said they woulnt last a month on their farms.None of these cows will have sons selected for irish ai.These cows are not suited to a grass based system and to my uneducated eye looked weak.I am open to correction and would like to understand what is going on but it looks like IHFA are out of touch with reality

jeff greene

keep going wrote: »

Went to the dairy show today and i feel like the little boy who says the emperor has clothes.Why are there so few cows there.Of the cows that were there how are these cows the best cows in ireland.They might be the best american or dutch cows in ireland but not the best irish.Most people said they woulnt last a month on their farms.None of these cows will have sons selected for irish ai.These cows are not suited to a grass based system and to my uneducated eye looked weak.I am open to correction and would like to understand what is going on but it looks like IHFA are out of touch with reality

I feel sorry for you if you went expecting small, round fat cows with swinging udders:pac: Its a Holstein show, what did you expect? :rolleyes: I overheard lads moaning too, blah, blah, blah, we know they not suited to extreme grass based dairy, no one said they were. Don’t be so sure on the AI thing either, they may not be used here but many go the Europe. Irish Holstein are well respected world wide. The beauty of the breed is you have these big perfect cows and ones suited to whatever system you choose, the IHFA tries to cater for all of them.

funny man

keep going wrote: »

Went to the dairy show today and i feel like the little boy who says the emperor has clothes.Why are there so few cows there.Of the cows that were there how are these cows the best cows in ireland.They might be the best american or dutch cows in ireland but not the best irish.Most people said they woulnt last a month on their farms.None of these cows will have sons selected for irish ai.These cows are not suited to a grass based system and to my uneducated eye looked weak.I am open to correction and would like to understand what is going on but it looks like IHFA are out of touch with reality

Who said anything about being the best cows in Ireland, it's just a show (beauty pagent) for holstein cows, What do you class as Irish, all we had here in the 50's was shorthorn so all our cows have american/europe or British friesian influence even the new zealand breed has EU/US genes so there is no getting away from it. I do agree that these cows wont work on a grass based system but they were never designed to do that, these animals are bred to produce on an intensive system where they must consume large amounts of feed to produce high volumes of milk (the battery hen of milk production). There is a world standard on the holstein breed and with size(capacity) which is linked to production cows are bred bigger and everything else that you need to convert feed to milk and udders and feet to carry that milk, i don't believe that the fertility issue in holsteins is being taken seriously as the average lactation in the us is 2.5 thats alot of breeding correct udders feet/legs and they never reach mature cow status, so your correct that these cows have very little relevance to our milk industry but it was your choice so as jeff said what did you expect to see.

5live

funny man wrote: »

Who said anything about being the best cows in Ireland, it's just a show (beauty pagent) for holstein cows, What do you class as Irish, all we had here in the 50's was shorthorn so all our cows have american/europe or British friesian influence even the new zealand breed has EU/US genes so there is no getting away from it. I do agree that these cows wont work on a grass based system but they were never designed to do that, these animals are bred to produce on an intensive system where they must consume large amounts of feed to produce high volumes of milk (the battery hen of milk production). There is a world standard on the holstein breed and with size(capacity) which is linked to production cows are bred bigger and everything else that you need to convert feed to milk and udders and feet to carry that milk, i don't believe that the fertility issue in holsteins is being taken seriously as the average lactation in the us is 2.5 thats alot of breeding correct udders feet/legs and they never reach mature cow status, so your correct that these cows have very little relevance to our milk industry but it was your choice so as jeff said what did you expect to see.

WOW, i can see this thread getting interesting:)

jeff greene

funny man wrote: »

Who said anything about being the best cows in Ireland, it's just a show (beauty pagent) for holstein cows, What do you class as Irish, all we had here in the 50's was shorthorn so all our cows have american/europe or British friesian influence even the new zealand breed has EU/US genes so there is no getting away from it. I do agree that these cows wont work on a grass based system but they were never designed to do that, these animals are bred to produce on an intensive system where they must consume large amounts of feed to produce high volumes of milk (the battery hen of milk production). There is a world standard on the holstein breed and with size(capacity) which is linked to production cows are bred bigger and everything else that you need to convert feed to milk and udders and feet to carry that milk, i don't believe that the fertility issue in holsteins is being taken seriously as the average lactation in the us is 2.5 thats alot of breeding correct udders feet/legs and they never reach mature cow status, so your correct that these cows have very little relevance to our milk industry but it was your choice so as jeff said what did you expect to see.

Horse manure!

5live wrote: »

WOW, i can see this thread getting interesting:)

Like that? :pac:

Funny man is right to differentiate the show cow from the commercial cow. That is not to say they can't be both show quality and profitable milking cows. Its cliche and trite but horses for courses.

I do believe fertility is being addressed, bulls like Oman wouldn't have got a look in 20 years ago and these things take time as its low heritability. All indices take fertility and productive life into account and say what you will about type, there are correlations between certain traits and longevity so can't ignore them either completely.

5live

jeff greene wrote: »

Like that? :pac:

Yup, like that. Nothing like a bit of controversy on a quiet sunday night;)

Tbh i can see both sides as i am in the middle with my herd but its interesting to hear what both sides have to say.

Before it goes into meltdown of course:pac:

jeff greene

5live wrote: »

Yup, like that. Nothing like a bit of controversy on a quiet sunday night;)


Before it goes into meltdown of course:pac:

Jersey cross breeding, there I said it;)

I didn't stay too long Saturday, but the dedication and work that goes into showing is unreal, not to mention the years and money invested in getting cows up to that standard, sure some may dismiss it and say its vanity etc but haters are gonna hate:pac: I just appreciate the cows and the effort involved.

keep going

When i was younger i used to go to shows and such like and look at the stock and would take an interest to see what breeding went to them and i suppose i regarded them as something to aspire to.But the goalposts have changed considerably over the years and now would 1 in 20 farmers aspire to have cows like those.Why not have some of the top 20 ebi cows there.i m not saying ebi is perfect but it does some what reflect what is needed.Some of the IHFA field evenings feature cows of a much more suitable stock.People seem to prefer more strenght in their cows. my children were fasinated with the preparation that went on and got a great kick out of the farm models so we all enjoyed the day.i just felt the stock are not reflective of what most farmers would aspire to in breeding

5live

keep going wrote: »

When i was younger i used to go to shows and such like and look at the stock and would take an interest to see what breeding went to them and i suppose i regarded them as something to aspire to.But the goalposts have changed considerably over the years and now would 1 in 20 farmers aspire to have cows like those.Why not have some of the top 20 ebi cows there.i m not saying ebi is perfect but it does some what reflect what is needed.Some of the IHFA field evenings feature cows of a much more suitable stock.People seem to prefer more strenght in their cows. my children were fasinated with the preparation that went on and got a great kick out of the farm models so we all enjoyed the day.i just felt the stock are not reflective of what most farmers would aspire to in breeding

Remembered last night about a ploughing match a few years ago. I was staying with a friend who was involved in setting up one of the bigger stands on site. He was short of hands so come 7am i was given a pass and driven to the site. It was a beautiful september morning so around 8 when i wasnt needed any more i gave a quick run up to the IHFA stand. I went into the tent and they had one of the top RBI (remember that:D?) cows on stand just about to be milked. There she was in a tent on a warm september morning with 2 blankets over her:eek:. And she was being promoted as the ideal cow for all farmers, needing not only a tent but blankets as well.

I still have reservations about what they are promoting as a breed ideal tbh. How many cows on saturday had EBI figures up? Less than 5% i would say even though it is the only independent comparison between animals on profitability

jeff greene

As Funny Man rightly pointed out, the show is judged to worldwide standards, so pointless complaining about the IHFA.

If they had the top 20 EBI cows on show, what would it even mean, EBI is just an number with no regard for physical make up, they could be anything from EX95 down to F65, just have to take their word for it?

As for the ideal cow, we all have different ideas!

5live

jeff greene wrote: »

As Funny Man rightly pointed out, the show is judged to worldwide standards, so pointless complaining about the IHFA.

If they had the top 20 EBI cows on show, what would it even mean, EBI is just an number with no regard for physical make up, they could be anything from EX95 down to F65, just have to take their word for it?

As for the ideal cow, we all have different ideas!

Yup, horses for courses, so to speak:p

keep going

on the classification could you explain the system to me.i m not going to pick holes in it i just want to know,thanks jeff

John_F

didn't make the show but would have liked to have gone, these cows are the creme de la creme on a world stage (consider using a cross breed in Israel or the usa) mind them well and they will deliver the goods and you will reap the rewards, treat them like sh!t and well theyl cost you money same as anything

thought this thread was heading for the arguments a few months ago haha horses for courses is right.

@keep going our herd isn't classified but look here http://www.ihfa.ie/classifications.aspx

funny man

I stand over my previous statement and i do note the counter argument or lack of it, i am breeding ho/fr for the last 30 years, while i have never shown cows i have been a follower, a member of IHFA, the breeders club and i have travelled abroad to both Europe and USA and seen the systems, the cows and their bull selection and index that they use, all i'll say is thankfully someone had the forsight to develop the EBI system and from what i've seen on my travels and talking to key people we are going in the right direction but for most of us a fertile herd is just an aspiration as it will take too long to reach it, When i see people on here laughing at the idea of crossbreeding it just sums up the conserative smallminded nature of the die hard holstien breeder, when you look at other types of farming; beef farmers use crossbreeding, sheep farmers use crossbreeding even pig farmers use crossbreeding yet some of us think that there is only one breed and if you look after them they will be profitable, that depends on how you measure profitability. Britian is a great example where holsteins failed because for all their extra pampering the supermarkets failed to pay and alot of guys went out of business.

jeff greene

funny man wrote: »

I stand over my previous statement and i do note the counter argument or lack of it, i am breeding ho/fr for the last 30 years, while i have never shown cows i have been a follower, a member of IHFA, the breeders club and i have travelled abroad to both Europe and USA and seen the systems, the cows and their bull selection and index that they use, all i'll say is thankfully someone had the forsight to develop the EBI system and from what i've seen on my travels and talking to key people we are going in the right direction but for most of us a fertile herd is just an aspiration as it will take too long to reach it, When i see people on here laughing at the idea of crossbreeding it just sums up the conserative smallminded nature of the die hard holstien breeder, when you look at other types of farming; beef farmers use crossbreeding, sheep farmers use crossbreeding even pig farmers use crossbreeding yet some of us think that there is only one breed and if you look after them they will be profitable, that depends on how you measure profitability. Britian is a great example where holsteins failed because for all their extra pampering the supermarkets failed to pay and alot of guys went out of business.

Why is it narrow minded to have belief in your breeding philosophy? I could claim it more blinkered to think cross breeding will solve all problems. Nobody denies there are issues but also its undeniable that today's preachings exasperate those issues. I just shake my head at some advice I see and hear, I'll do my thang, you can do your thang:pac: same with breeding.

UK supermarkets will be delighted to see you blaming it all on the innocent cow. I'm not going to pretend to know anything about it, but that is a very weak reason.

Here you can do a search for the top UK holsteins, the top 20 on PLI don't look too dissimilar to the top EBI holsteins, so they are accounting for fertility and health traits too.

@Keep Going, I don't classify but would hope to some day, here is a good document that explains it well.

:cool:

djmc

I wasn't there but I think it should be called the National Holstein Show as they
dont show all dairy breeds
Ebi doesnt make perfect sense either as I have some daughters of PICSTON SHOTTLE who has an ebi of only 81 but straws cost 70 euro or the top acres
family of brown swiss are considered to be the best in the world of that breed
but have an ebi of almost 0 yet the top ebi bull straws can be got for 17 euro.
I look for ebi when buying a stock bull but use the Ai straws I think help my herd
As for crossbreeding dont knock it till you tried it. I meet people all the time who
think im mad to milk anything other than a friesan each to their own.

John_F

djmc wrote: »

I wasn't there but I think it should be called the National Holstein Show as they
dont show all dairy breeds
Ebi doesnt make perfect sense either as I have some daughters of PICSTON SHOTTLE who has an ebi of only 81 but straws cost 70 euro or the top acres
family of brown swiss are considered to be the best in the world of that breed
but have an ebi of almost 0 yet the top ebi bull straws can be got for 17 euro.
I look for ebi when buying a stock bull but use the Ai straws I think help my herd
As for crossbreeding dont knock it till you tried it. I meet people all the time who
think im mad to milk anything other than a friesan each to their own.

thought there were jerseys aswell....

yep there on the results anyway http://www.nationaldairyshow.com/?p=309

funny man

jeff greene wrote: »

Why is it narrow minded to have belief in your breeding philosophy?

When i see people on here laughing at the idea of crossbreeding it just sums up the conserative smallminded nature of the die hard holstien breeder, when you look at other types of farming; beef farmers use crossbreeding, sheep farmers use crossbreeding even pig farmers use crossbreeding yet some of us think that there is only one breed.
If i was a beef farmer who just used one breed to produce beef it would be considered blinkered vision as different breeds has different attributes and before the benifit of hetosis you can introduce merits from other breeds.

UK supermarkets will be delighted to see you blaming it all on the innocent cow. I'm not going to pretend to know anything about it, but that is a very weak reason.

The reason i used this as the dairy farmers in the uk blamed the supermarkets for their sorry plight, instead of looking inside their gate at a high maintenance herd.

Here you can do a search for the top UK holsteins, the top 20 on PLI don't look too dissimilar to the top EBI holsteins, so they are accounting for fertility and health traits too.

confirms what i'm saying top 20; milk +567kgs fertility +2.9 with one bull that i recongnise Mc Cormack at +7.4 the rest below average for fertility, the highest index bulls for fertility are NZ bull called jumpstart and he dosn't get near the top 20 PLI of 75.

Just wonder are you involved in a IHFA and how many guys you know use oman or oman sons on their better cows?

keep going

to be honest most the stuff in classification i would do if i was buying a cow its just that i wouldnt put figures on it and would"like" different traits.i just never knew what exactly was involved.good to see it.my point was these cows or their progeny are not suited to most irish farmers so maybe we should find out what farmers would want their herds to be like in 5/10 years.in our diss group we think fr cows suit our profile better than jxf due to farm size.most operate 40 to 60 acres on home block so dont need the labour saving of the jx. we also feel that post quotas fr offer the best chance of maximising production on limited acres.also expansion will be based on tweaking existing facilities as cashflow on family farms wont be able to make big investments to facility larger nos and calves/culls provide an extra income.so we would say a herd of fr stocked at 3 to 3.5/hectare with ration in spring/autumn producing 1500 gls(500kgs+solids) and empty rate of max 10% in 11 weeks.

jeff greene

confirms what i'm saying top 20; milk +567kgs fertility +2.9 with one bull that i recongnise Mc Cormack at +7.4 the rest below average for fertility, the highest index bulls for fertility are NZ bull called jumpstart and he dosn't get near the top 20 PLI of 75.

Just wonder are you involved in a IHFA and how many guys you know use oman or oman sons on their better cows?

Okay! I'm not sure why you assume farmers are narrow minded for using holstein, they work all around the world, maybe they have valid reasons or its just personal. I don't see the need for anyone to justify anything to anyone, more than one way to skin a cat.

In the top 20, I make it 14 Oman sons, all of which rank highly here too. Not quite sure on their fertility index but Jumpstart is €89 in his sub index here.

No, I've no involvement in IHFA, but Oman sons, why not?

jeff greene

keep going wrote: »

to be honest most the stuff in classification i would do if i was buying a cow its just that i wouldnt put figures on it and would"like" different traits.i just never knew what exactly was involved.good to see it.my point was these cows or their progeny are not suited to most irish farmers so maybe we should find out what farmers would want their herds to be like in 5/10 years.in our diss group we think fr cows suit our profile better than jxf due to farm size.most operate 40 to 60 acres on home block so dont need the labour saving of the jx. we also feel that post quotas fr offer the best chance of maximising production on limited acres.also expansion will be based on tweaking existing facilities as cashflow on family farms wont be able to make big investments to facility larger nos and calves/culls provide an extra income.so we would say a herd of fr stocked at 3 to 3.5/hectare with ration in spring/autumn producing 1500 gls(500kgs+solids) and empty rate of max 10% in 11 weeks.

Yeah its good information, try to use it with the bull liner to improve faults = win

Genuine question, but why jxf and labour saving?

Agree with the rest, may be lofty goals but thats the point!

dar31

keep going wrote: »

to be honest most the stuff in classification i would do if i was buying a cow its just that i wouldnt put figures on it and would"like" different traits.i just never knew what exactly was involved.good to see it.my point was these cows or their progeny are not suited to most irish farmers so maybe we should find out what farmers would want their herds to be like in 5/10 years.in our diss group we think fr cows suit our profile better than jxf due to farm size.most operate 40 to 60 acres on home block so dont need the labour saving of the jx. we also feel that post quotas fr offer the best chance of maximising production on limited acres.also expansion will be based on tweaking existing facilities as cashflow on family farms wont be able to make big investments to facility larger nos and calves/culls provide an extra income.so we would say a herd of fr stocked at 3 to 3.5/hectare with ration in spring/autumn producing 1500 gls(500kgs+solids) and empty rate of max 10% in 11 weeks.

your fertility figures are fairly ambitious for the cow in that peroid of time, how much meal are ye planning on feeding.
should do 3 lu/ha no problem little or no meal.
where land is a limiting factor yield really dose become of greater importance, and the hf dose come into its own, but they also come with their draw backs.

keep going

probaly around 300+kilos in the spring and 300+ in the autumn,depending on meal/milk price.main reason is to maximise stocking and milk production off grass.jx require less labour in the spring peak as they give less trouble and you can dump off the bull calves quicker, a big help when you are dealing with larger nos.these cows are what we think is ideal,achieving it,now there s a trick.

funny man

Okay! I'm not sure why you assume farmers are narrow minded for using holstein, they work all around the world, maybe they have valid reasons or its just personal. I don't see the need for anyone to justify anything to anyone, more than one way to skin a cat.

I'm not the one who is trying to justify anything, i'm open to the use of other breeds. all my life i believed that the holstein breed was superior to everything else now i realise after travelling the world that approximately 10% of the worlds milk is produced off grass and pure holstein breed has been bred to produce large quantities of milk from forage on an indoor system, fertility and longevity has been compromised and calving intervals of 450 days plus are the norm, this animal will not fit into herds here without a loss of profit to the grassland farmers. crossbreeding is not the norm in this country as attitudes towards it is largely founded on miss information and examples of guys who breed from the worse cows, treat the heifers like sh!t and end up with small weanling type heifers calving and then say "well they're crossbreds". crossbreeding is used in all other codes of livestock farming but there is room for breeders of pure breeds to supply bulls.

In the top 20, I make it 14 Oman sons, all of which rank highly here too. Not quite sure on their fertility index but Jumpstart is €89 in his sub index here.

I looked through them don't see too many that are on our list, jumpstart is not near the top of the list because fertility is only 18% of the overall PLI compared with our own EBI which has 35% for fertility.

No, I've no involvement in IHFA, but Oman sons, why not?

I am a member and i attend the field days and meetings and some of the stuff you hear is frightning; guys wouldn't use oman because his overall score for type is poor, but they will put oman sons on some cows as they get a high EBI bull. At herds competitions they discourage members if they are selecting for EBI. And their views on crossbreeding use Holstien or Jersey purebred only.

jeff greene

funny man wrote: »

I'm not the one who is trying to justify anything, i'm open to the use of other breeds. all my life i believed that the holstein breed was superior to everything else now i realise after travelling the world that approximately 10% of the worlds milk is produced off grass and pure holstein breed has been bred to produce large quantities of milk from forage on an indoor system, fertility and longevity has been compromised and calving intervals of 450 days plus are the norm, this animal will not fit into herds here without a loss of profit to the grassland farmers. crossbreeding is not the norm in this country as attitudes towards it is largely founded on miss information and examples of guys who breed from the worse cows, treat the heifers like sh!t and end up with small weanling type heifers calving and then say "well they're crossbreds". crossbreeding is used in all other codes of livestock farming but there is room for breeders of pure breeds to supply bulls.

I looked through them don't see too many that are on our list, jumpstart is not near the top of the list because fertility is only 18% of the overall PLI compared with our own EBI which has 35% for fertility.

I am a member and i attend the field days and meetings and some of the stuff you hear is frightning; guys wouldn't use oman because his overall score for type is poor, but they will put oman sons on some cows as they get a high EBI bull. At herds competitions they discourage members if they are selecting for EBI. And their views on crossbreeding use Holstien or Jersey purebred only.

But are those that make it work not grassland farmers then cause many do, but with a more cow focused approach, with grass still playing a big role. This is going around in circles but it bears repeating that the current mantra is exasperating the known fertility issues of the breed. Teagsac, ICBF ,the media etc have creditable aims but are pandering to those with big, dry farms and newsflash, not everyone has that. So as Keep Going said above the hol/fr has a place still.


The point of the PLI list was to counter your point that the EBI is so unique, its dominated by Oman sons as are most indices around the world, 18% is sizable, so fertility is being addressed. Btw, the top bull Jansen is Irish. Also, the US TPI index is Production 43% Health & Fertility 29% Conformation 28%.


The IHFA have their MO like all others, at the end of the day, we know they have some issues with the EBI index so its unsurprising. Do they give logical reasons for their advice?

en route

Well done KEEP GOING'
IHFA are out of touch, strong words there,
well i don't think they are out of touch at all,
mabe not the type of cow for every dairy person but they have there place and those breeder that stuck with them are still in milk not like alot of so called modern farmers that went down the IFJ, ICBF, TEAGASC, EBI and some dark nosed little crossbreeds who had to sell up and get out because of ending up with a so called DANA COLLECTION, cows with no milk, poor calf quality, lower herd value, a pure breed of any breed is always worth more any day, every breed tries to compare to the Holstein and i wonder why? !!!!!!!!!!
Question! how many breeds are repersented like the Holstein in Ireland,
Well done IHFA!
By the way i don't have Holsteins

en route

Well done KEEP GOING'
IHFA are out of touch, strong words there,
well i don't think they are out of touch at all,
mabe not the type of cow for every dairy person but they have there place and those breeder that stuck with them are still in milk not like alot of so called modern farmers that went down the IFJ, ICBF, TEAGASC, EBI and some dark nosed little crossbreeds who had to sell up and get out because of ending up with a so called DANA COLLECTION, cows with no milk, poor calf quality, lower herd value, a pure breed of any breed is always worth more any day, every breed tries to compare to the Holstein and i wonder why? !!!!!!!!!!
Question! how many breeds are repersented like the Holstein in Ireland,
Well done IHFA!
By the way i don't have Holsteins

red bull

I have HOL/MOntbeliarde cross cows, lower yield higher solids,great calf prices both heifer and bulls. think my next cross will be ayrshire ?

keep going

i still stand over my point that these cows are unsuited to most irish farms.irish farms have adopted a lot of techniques from nz which have allowed them to remain competitive and in my view remain in business.this is not in relation to crossbreds or outwintering or whatever,it is more to do with the focus on producing milk off grass in a simple system.i dont think these cows suit this system,there are better cows within the fr breed than these cows for irish conditions so while i appreciate the effort put into the breeding of these cows i dont think they are the best cows in ireland

bogman_bass

If you want nice udders ayrshires will give them to ya. Beautiful cows.


in other news there was a new record in milk production
http://www.holsteinworld.com/story.php?id=1124

works out at 6300 gallons by my calculations

jeff greene

bogman_bass wrote: »

in other news there was a new record in milk production
http://www.holsteinworld.com/story.php?id=1124

works out at 6300 gallons by my calculations

Unbelievable, what a cow too, look at that udder after all that milk!

funny man

en route wrote: »

Well done KEEP GOING'
IHFA are out of touch, strong words there,
well i don't think they are out of touch at all,
mabe not the type of cow for every dairy person but they have there place and those breeder that stuck with them are still in milk not like alot of so called modern farmers that went down the IFJ, ICBF, TEAGASC, EBI and some dark nosed little crossbreeds who had to sell up and get out because of ending up with a so called DANA COLLECTION, cows with no milk, poor calf quality, lower herd value, a pure breed of any breed is always worth more any day, every breed tries to compare to the Holstein and i wonder why? !!!!!!!!!!
Question! how many breeds are repersented like the Holstein in Ireland,
Well done IHFA!
By the way i don't have Holsteins

What are you telling us all HO/Fr breeders who breed for type are still in milk while alot of farmers that went down the crossbreeding route went out of business!

• just for the record ICBF and EBI has nothing to do with crossbreeding.
• IFJ and Teagasc didn't develop jersey crossbreds (they would love to take credit for it though).
• cows with no milk comes for nutrition not from breeding, i milked AAXFR cows when i started and even they could produce 1200 gallons.
• Calf quality 1% of my income comes from bull calf sales, i don't milk cows for their calves. cull cows price difference can be covered by one extra lactation.
• on the lower herd value it's just the same as the guy whos land is only worth 40% of what it was worth, I don't derive my income from the value of the herd, it's mostly from the value of the milk and the guys with the crossbreds get higher solids and a higher milk price.
• The every breed tries to compare to the Ho/Fr well i just don't get that.

Question! how many breeds are repersented like the Holstein in Ireland

Dairy breeds 0
Beef breeds got fed up counting 20+

I don't get what your question is trying to prove but i do know that you know very little about what your talking about, as a breeder of Ho/Fr i have strong views on the breed and a deep understanding of what WHFF is striving to achieve, i believe that their ideal cow is not ours because as i said before only 10% of the worlds milk is produced of grass. I also understand where farmers like jeff are coming from and i respect his views but yours just show that you don't understand how real dairy farmers get their income from.

funny man

jeff greene wrote: »

But are those that make it work not grassland farmers then cause many do, but with a more cow focused approach, with grass still playing a big role. This is going around in circles but it bears repeating that the current mantra is exasperating the known fertility issues of the breed. Teagsac, ICBF ,the media etc have creditable aims but are pandering to those with big, dry farms and newsflash, not everyone has that. So as Keep Going said above the hol/fr has a place still.

The point of the PLI list was to counter your point that the EBI is so unique, its dominated by Oman sons as are most indices around the world, 18% is sizable, so fertility is being addressed. Btw, the top bull Jansen is Irish. Also, the US TPI index is Production 43% Health & Fertility 29% Conformation 28%.

Sorry jeff but in an overall index 18% isn't sizable, it simply won't allow high fertile bulls to reach the top of their index.

The IHFA have their MO like all others, at the end of the day, we know they have some issues with the EBI index so its unsurprising. Do they give logical reasons for their advice?

Choose for TYPE,TYPE,TYPE that is their mantra.

jeff greene

funny man wrote: »

Sorry jeff but in an overall index 18% isn't sizable, it simply won't allow high fertile bulls to reach the top of their index.

Just a final post on this, so I'll allow you to have the last word if you want;) here you can see the makeup of the PLI, production is 45.2%, the rest longevity and health traits. A more balanced index? Certainly not going to throw the baby out with the bath water as you could choosing solely on EBI.

I just got the paper, haven't read it yet, but Dairygold and Glanbia are pushing for out of season milk? Was inevitable, for the short term at least until infrastructure is put in place. How do you see it long term? a flatter supply will suit some farms well I think, if it adds up of course.