LED lights & Attic insulation

dizzytech

Hi all!

I'm planning out a small DIY project to floor the attic in the house. My intention is to replace the attic floor insulation (30 years old) with some new rockwool insulation. I'm planning to put two layers of insulation in order to get up to current regs on insulation. All quite straightforwards.. but there's one bit that I'm not 100% on..

There are currently a number of 20W halogen MR16 bulbs (GU5.3 fitting) on our landing, I'd like to replace these with LED replacement bulbs. Something along the lines of this

Currently each MR16 bulb has its what I think is it's own transformer unit (small black unit), they're not on a dimmer, which makes things easier.

I'm wondering if I can do a straight swap of an MR16 bulb with an LED, or will I have to buy new new transformer units? Can anyone advise?

Also given that I'm now looking to put two layers above the bulbs, would there be a need to add some sort of cowling over the bulbs (fire saftey cap type thing). The MR16s do throw out a fair bit of heat, I'm not sure if the LEDs are similar in heat output?

Any advice you can provide would be welcome..

thanks

Buford T Justice

LED's don't throw out any heat by comparison to normal downlighters, so if you only intend to use LED's you don't need caps for the lights. If there's the chance that the bulbs will be changed back, then fit them.

If both lights are GU5.3 and they are the same voltage, it should be a straight swap.

paddy147

dizzytech wrote: »

Hi all!

I'm planning out a small DIY project to floor the attic in the house. My intention is to replace the attic floor insulation (30 years old) with some new rockwool insulation. I'm planning to put two layers of insulation in order to get up to current regs on insulation. All quite straightforwards.. but there's one bit that I'm not 100% on..

There are currently a number of 20W halogen MR16 bulbs (GU5.3 fitting) on our landing, I'd like to replace these with LED replacement bulbs. Something along the lines of this

Currently each MR16 bulb has its what I think is it's own transformer unit (small black unit), they're not on a dimmer, which makes things easier.

I'm wondering if I can do a straight swap of an MR16 bulb with an LED, or will I have to buy new new transformer units? Can anyone advise?

Also given that I'm now looking to put two layers above the bulbs, would there be a need to add some sort of cowling over the bulbs (fire saftey cap type thing). The MR16s do throw out a fair bit of heat, I'm not sure if the LEDs are similar in heat output?

Any advice you can provide would be welcome..

thanks

You should not put insulation up near any bulb (even LED) tbh.without instaling propper downlight covers.

Best way to do it is to use a fireproof downlight cover/ cowl,like the one in the pics below.

Then you can use insulation around and over the light fitting.:)


PS-I have Philips Master 4 watt LED downlights fitted in the house,downlight covers and insulation installed too.

paddy147

Buford T Justice wrote: »

LED's don't throw out any heat by comparison to normal downlighters, so if you only intend to use LED's you don't need caps for the lights. .

IMO,thats bad advice with regards the OP asking about adding insulation aswell.

Buford T Justice

paddy147 wrote: »

IMO,thats bad advice with regards the OP asking about adding insulation aswell.

Not going to argue the toss with you on this, but it can be pretty subjective too tho. I will agree that it would no doubt be against fire regs for normal downlighters or GU10's

As an example, if I was doing this to a house I was going to spend the rest of my natural in, and I couldn't afford the extra few hundred quid for the pots, then I'd do it, but i'd remember it if it was ever a case of replacing the LED's

Doing it as paid employment for someone is a different case altogether.

m1nder

paddy147 wrote: »

You should not put insulation up near any bulb (even LED) tbh.without instaling propper downlight covers.

Best way to do it is to use a fireproof downlight cover/ cowl,like the one in the pics below.

Then you can use insulation around and over the light fitting.:)


PS-I have Philips Master 4 watt LED downlights fitted in the house,downlight covers and insulation installed too.

Hey great photos Paddy, very interesting and many thanks. I'm wondering wrt the op's first post. Say if the new insulation sits proud (higher) of the rafters, how do you go about dealing with putting down a ply floor? Do you shim up off the rafters i order to prevent th enew insulation being compressed?

dizzytech

Thanks all, I think I'll definitely look towards fitting the caps. I have seen a good few variants out there, so it'll be off to google with me to find a suitable one. (If anyone happens to know of a local supplier that I can order from via the interwebs, please let me know).

In relation to m1nders reply, I do intend to replace the existing glasswool with new insulation, and then the second layer will run perpendicular to the first layer, so I'll be putting down a second set of wooden batons/joists at the proper spacings. Some sections of the attic was already 'floored' using the short length loft panels. So I'll start flooring the attic using these loft panels, over the two new layers of insulation, then look to floor out the rest of the attic as I get an opportunity.

In regards to the two layers of insulation, is it safe to cap the lighting, keeping the insulation away from the top of the cap, and floor over it? (obviously I'll be marking the locations of the lights on the loft panels)

I'll be running new wiring for lighting (for the rooms below), as the original electrical runs for the lighting were just "thrown" across the original joists. I'd not be comfortable with putting in the new insulation without taking care of the wiring.

Thanks again to all for your feedback

dizzytech

paddy147 wrote: »

You should not put insulation up near any bulb (even LED) tbh.without instaling propper downlight covers.

Best way to do it is to use a fireproof downlight cover/ cowl,like the one in the pics below.

Then you can use insulation around and over the light fitting.:)


PS-I have Philips Master 4 watt LED downlights fitted in the house,downlight covers and insulation installed too.

Thanks Paddy for the photos they're a great help!
Seems I have to have a few more posts on the site before I can thank your post!

One shot on kill

you could just use one layer of kingspan insulation and it would be more than enough and also you will save the 4-6 inchs in height aswell by loosing the second set of joists this will cover the cost of the kingspan use 100 mm thick

also besure not to insulate over the light i dont understand in any world this one or the next why it would be ok

i used an ofcut of 6 inch waven and sat it around the light and insulated up to it

adattsi

Just a note on LED GU10/MR16 bulbs for domestic use. A lot of the cheaper bulbs have no way of dispersing the heat effectively away from the bulb as they are. LED's actually do give off heat and this is a common misconception that they are completely cool.

The fact is that increasing the heat of the bulb will dramatically shorten the life of the product and there should be adequate air movement around the bulb to dissipate the accumulated heat produced from the bulb.

Covering these bulbs with a cover or insulation will not help them IMHO.

paddy147

adattsi wrote: »

Just a note on LED GU10/MR16 bulbs for domestic use. A lot of the cheaper bulbs have no way of dispersing the heat effectively away from the bulb as they are. LED's actually do give off heat and this is a common misconception that they are completely cool.

The fact is that increasing the heat of the bulb will dramatically shorten the life of the product and there should be adequate air movement around the bulb to dissipate the accumulated heat produced from the bulb.

Covering these bulbs with a cover or insulation will not help them IMHO.

Eh,no one said that LEDs dont give off heat.

Most downlight covers are breathable (mine are) and also the Philips LED downlights that I use are of a very good design and disipate any little heat build up very well.

They actually produce very little heat in reality.

The downlight covers that I installed are 150mm wide by 100mm deep,so plenty of space for air and cooling.


Regards.

paddy147

Buford T Justice wrote: »

Not going to argue the toss with you on this, but it can be pretty subjective too tho. I will agree that it would no doubt be against fire regs for normal downlighters or GU10's

As an example, if I was doing this to a house I was going to spend the rest of my natural in, and I couldn't afford the extra few hundred quid for the pots, then I'd do it, but i'd remember it if it was ever a case of replacing the LED's

Doing it as paid employment for someone is a different case altogether.

Well I intend on living in my house for the rest of my life,and this is what I did with my own house (see above pics).

I dont do this for a living either.I just have a keen interest in matters like this,thats all.

Qwerty?

paddy147 wrote: »

Most downlight covers are breathable (mine are anyway) and also the Philips LED downlights that I use are of a very good design and disipate any heat build up very well.

They actually produce very little heat.

The downlight covers that I installed are 150mm wide by 100mm deep,so plenty of space for air and cooling.


Regards.

Any idea how much these hoods were?

paddy147

Qwerty? wrote: »

Any idea how much these hoods were?

7 euro each,my girlfriend went and collected them for me

Qwerty?

was never able to find any that cheap, where could I get them?

paddy147

Qwerty? wrote: »

was never able to find any that cheap, where could I get them?

The company/owner is based in Howth,Dublin.

http://www.downlightcoversdirect.ie/

cabledude

Slightly off topic :

I'm changing my entire stock of 50W halogen GU10's. I'm putting in 3W LED's. Are they suitable for bathroom fittings. Will the heat be able to get away considering the bulb is encased in a water proof globe?

Any thoughts...?

paddy147

cabledude wrote: »

Slightly off topic :

I'm changing my entire stock of 50W halogen GU10's. I'm putting in 3W LED's. Are they suitable for bathroom fittings. Will the heat be able to get away considering the bulb is encased in a water proof globe?

Any thoughts...?

Well,I have the Philips 4 watt LED,s in my bathroom and ensuite and they are absolutely fine.I have IP rated downlight fixtures in the bathroom and ensuite too.

Glebee

paddy147 wrote: »

The company/owner is based in Howth,Dublin.

http://www.downlightcoversdirect.ie/

On the look out for these myself. These seem to be the best I can find also. Anybody use these guys before????

paddy147

Glebee wrote: »

On the look out for these myself. These seem to be the best I can find also. Anybody use these guys before????

Eh,yes,as theres a slight hint in my post and pics.

dogspider47

downlightcoversdirect.ie Ive used them over 40 recessed lights and the difference is unbelievable. No more cold spots. they've been in 2 years now and no issues. Ive got 50w halogen bulbs and they appear to last longer with the covers on. Ive been told that this is possibly due to the fact that the bulbs blow from cooling down too quick when they're switched off. Sounds plausible enough. Either way, they've worked out well for me. Considering switching to LED anyway to save even more money

Muckit

Those downlighter covers seem a great idea. Would electrical retailers have them (or something similar) in stock?

dogspider47

They deliver countrywide for just a tenner. Beats driving all over the place lookin for them

m1nder

dogspider47 wrote: »

They deliver countrywide for just a tenner. Beats driving all over the place lookin for them

Are you connected to the company? (new user whose only posts are singing their praises). No problem either way but I think you need to declare your interest.

dogspider47

Not connected in any way Mr Homes. I purchased the product and spotted this post so I joined to share my view. I apologise if I got your nose twitching, now have you anything constructive to add to the discussion because it appears you have just jumped in to stir the pot.;)

Glebee

Got my delivery of caps yesterday. Insulation guys coming next week.
Haggled for free delivery...

DublinWriter

cabledude wrote: »

I'm changing my entire stock of 50W halogen GU10's. I'm putting in 3W LED's.

I replaced three 50W Halogens with 3W LEDs today - although the info on the pack of the LEDS said that they gave out equivalent light to 35W Halogens, to me they are far brighter than the 50W bulbs they replaced.

dogspider47

Hey Paddy, where did you buy the Phillips 4W bulbs and at what cost.