Potential Segregated Cycleways in Dublin

LaFlammeRouge

Another thread got be interested in the potential for segregated off-road cycleways for Dublin. Obviously the canals, but also greater use of the small rivers in Dublin and the Sutton to Sandycove cycleway.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=200832783753934675596.0004ae15eb194959213a2&msa=0&ll=53.341943,-6.251221&spn=0.234902,0.441513

-Chris-

What's the question?

LaFlammeRouge

-Chris- wrote: »

What's the question?

It's a discussion not a question

-Chris-

Sorry, I just didn't understand.

Are these proposed segregated cycleways? Is it just someone coming up with ideas? Is it anything official?

LaFlammeRouge

-Chris- wrote: »

Sorry, I just didn't understand.

Are these proposed segregated cycleways? Is it just someone coming up with ideas? Is it anything official?

No I was just bored and mapped them out. Most of the paths are already there so it wouldn't take much investment to see these cycleways being built.

Doctor Bob

-Chris- wrote: »

What's the question?

I'll start so.

Does anyone think S2S will ever be built?

It's been on the cards for the better part of a decade and all we have still is a few lines on a map, and a website that looks like it was designed in the late '90s (perhaps it was...).

http://www.s2s.ie/

The Greens' solution to the impracticality of S2S was to extend the route from Bray to Balbriggan, so I took to calling it Derry to Dunmore East. Why not? It's as likely to happen as any of the other proposals.

Re greenways in general, I've heard rumours about the Tolka, the Dodder, the Royal Canal, and a connection from the Royal to the Grand, as well as the S2S project. If they happen - and properly - then great. Sadly it's not just a matter of investment; they must be done to a high standard or don't bother.

p

Isn't s2s is being built right at the moment?

The dodder runs past my parents house in Tallaght, it would be a great candidate. The whole dodder run is really under-utilised and developed.

Doctor Bob wrote: »

Sadly it's not just a matter of investment; they must be done to a high standard or don't bother.

In politics, often it seems that it's better to get something done basically than not at all. It's easier to obtain funds to upgrade something that's showing signs or promise than to get all the funds up front for a perfect solution.

BostonB

The line out to clonsilla doesn't seem to follow any roads.

Doctor Bob

BostonB wrote: »

The line out to clonsilla doesn't seem to follow any roads.

May be something to do with the OP's proposals being for 'segregated off-road cycleways'. It follows the route of the Royal Canal on the attached map.

p wrote: »

Isn't s2s is being built right at the moment?

Not that I'm aware of. Part of the Rathmines to Fairview 'Premium' route will also form part of S2S, but the part in question is the stretch north of the Liffey, i.e. the one part that has been put on hold due to local opposition.

I know that there was progress on the design of the missing section near Clontarf (causeway to wooden bridge) in the last couple of years, but there are pretty onerous environmental designations along Dublin Bay now that weren't in place in the '70s (SPA? SAC? Not sure which, but the higher level Natura 2000 [EU origin] designation is the relevant obstacle), with the result that the solution proposed there was a cantilevered, cable-stayed promenade costing tens of millions of euros.

And from growing up in Blackrock and now living near Sandymount Strand, I can say with reasonable certainty that there are other stretches that would be just as problematic- the narrow path at the back of the northbound platform of Blackrock Train Station being just one obvious example.

p wrote: »

In politics, often it seems that it's better to get something done basically than not at all. It's easier to obtain funds to upgrade something that's showing signs or promise than to get all the funds up front for a perfect solution.

Perhaps elsewhere, but experience here tells me that we'd get some sort of compromise solution as Phase I, and the funds would never materialise for Phase II (or III or IV...). Unfortunately, the Irish approach tends to follow a different model, where compromise after compromise is heaped on good ideas until they're barely recognisable and of questionable value.

Have the problems with the College Green bus gate been rectified? When the poor junction design of the Rathmines to Fairview route becomes more apparent, how long will it take to fix them? Sorry to be so cynical! I'd love to share your faith.

BostonB

Doctor Bob wrote: »

May be something to do with the OP's proposals being for 'segregated off-road cycleways'. It follows the route of the Royal Canal on the attached map....

Ah, the topic title didn't have that I must have just ignored the off bit.

monument

LaFlammeRouge wrote: »

Another thread got be interested in the potential for segregated off-road cycleways for Dublin. Obviously the canals, but also greater use of the small rivers in Dublin and the Sutton to Sandycove cycleway.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=200832783753934675596.0004ae15eb194959213a2&msa=0&ll=53.341943,-6.251221&spn=0.234902,0.441513

Here's a map on the status of Sutton to Sandycove and the canal routes.

The canals routes are partly built / planned / stalled. On on outer section of Royal Canal the surface is problematic in parts, while on the Grand Canal the major problem is kissing gates which kills the route for most people and kills the full potential for all. Waterways Ireland and objections from others are a major problem.

The Sutton to Sandycove or "S2S" route is stalled and / or compromised in more than a few places due to political reasons and due to funding on the flood wall near Bull Island. See here on the Eastwall area problems, I think there's also a long list of problems south of the city centre and in the area of Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council. Comment on your route: It should go via Rinsend Park, not around it!

Loads of compromises in the canals route currently under construction which also makes up part of the S2S -- these include shared use across Grand Canal Square, cobble stones south of the square, some normal bike lanes beside parking as part of the design, and at least one potential fairly major pinch point with pedestrians.

The Broadstone alignment is reserved for Luas BXD -- it's a non-runner trying to fit it in all of the Broadstone alignment (the Luas and stations hardly fits in parts). Your cycleway section from Finglas to Connaught Street looks like there are no major impasses but there's a building and laneway built out just north before the Cabra Road, and between the Cabra Road and the North Circular, it's quite tight.

A long section could also be done alone the Tolka. There's already some in the the Tolka Valley Park but a route could somewhat reasonably easily go from Griffith Park at Drumcondra to Finglas (where it could link with the Royal Canal).

Your Ballymun to Raheny one is an interesting idea – pitty there isn’t a clear natural link between the railway line and the coast or the park.

The temporary "Green Loop" opened / sign posted for a day last week also shows how the Grand and Royal canals could be linked at two ways via the Phoenix Park and the Lucan Demesne etc, and this could be improved on. See: http://www.irishtrails.ie/Trail_News/NTD%20Green%20Trail%20Loop%20Map.pdf

There's also long term plans to have a park stretch from Phoenix Park. And currently there's a cycle track along the river which links Chapelizod Road to Islandbridge, via the War Memorial Gardens. And there’s the Phoenix Park cycle tracks too.

BTW on cyclingindublin.com, I'm planning on (slowly) mapping and rating all the current off road routes in Dublin -- starting with the canals, the current parts of S2S and Phoenix Park. Trying to come up with a ranking system -- I'm thinking basing in on qualities like accessibly, connectivity, surface quality.

brownbeard

Thanks for the updates, have been looking for info on this for a while now.
Does anyone know to what level the Dun Laoghaire to City part of S2S has been looked into? Alignment, feasability, space for fully segregated/shared use, budget etc... or has someone just got the crayons out?

monument

brownbeard wrote:

Thanks for the updates, have been looking for info on this for a while now.
Does anyone know to what level the Dun Laoghaire to City part of S2S has been looked into? Alignment, feasability, space for fully segregated/shared use, budget etc... or has someone just got the crayons out?

Not fully sure... It's a mess...

What is shown on my google map along the coast in purple is based on documents from the Dublin Regional Authority (DRA) showing the original proposed route -- see link below. But along the Dun Laoghaire section there's problems with the original alignment for a number of reasons (environmental, residents objecting, ownership etc).

They have about 1km in the park between Booterstown and Blackrock and are building a contra flow lane in Newtown Avenue -- if these are or will be part of S2S even if it's a huge difference in the original plan for it to be largely uninterrupted along the coast.

The DRA report on the S2S in sections from 2006 is here. And there's a 2008 slideshow update here.

Also found this from last year on the DLR Co Co website:

T/07/10
Item 3 (b)
Sutton to Sandycove (S2S) Coastal Cycling Route

Cllr. Victor Boyhan

To ask the Manager to provide a brief report on the Sutton to Sandycove
(S2S) coastal cycling route proposal.

Reply:

It is a specific local objective of the County Development Plan to support the development of the proposed Sutton to Sandycove (S to S) promenade and cycleway.
The appointed lead authority in relation to the S2S, , is Dublin City Council. The City Council has employed consultants to determine if the construction of the S2S is feasible and to develop a preliminary design report. This report has not been completed and is currently awaited.

The news section of the campaign website seems to bring some more light from -- ie no great progress and there's a push to have it inland -- http://www.s2s.ie/News.html

As they linked to, at a council meeting councillors got annoyed at the response from officials. The councillors were only give the report a year afterwards when they put down a motion at a council meeting. It apparently pushed the route away from the coast. But the county manager says that the Dublin City Council were holding it back from them -- he also said that the council wants it along the coast and they want to challenge the view it should be away from the coast.

Dun Laoghaire also currently has a 3km route from Dun Laoghaire Pier to Dalkey called the Metals.

Doctor Bob wrote: »

It's been on the cards for the better part of a decade and all we have still is a few lines on a map, and a website that looks like it was designed in the late '90s (perhaps it was...).

http://www.s2s.ie/

That's the website of the campaign for the route -- not an official site. At least they have some centralised info and some open updates that are clearly lacking on councils websites.

Doctor Bob wrote: »

The Greens' solution to the impracticality of S2S was to extend the route from Bray to Balbriggan, so I took to calling it Derry to Dunmore East. Why not? It's as likely to happen as any of the other proposals.

In part, the longer sections were seemed to be already looked at by Fingal Co Co etc. But doing easier outer sections doesn't help the more complicated city sections, but it also does not harm the urban sections.

brownbeard

Thanks for the info.
Just watched the linked feed from the council meeting.

Link;http://www.dlrcoco.public-i.tv/site/player/pl_compact.php?a=53629&t=0&m=wms&l=en_GB#the_data_area
(it starts at about 2h06m)

Even though it's a given that...

{this particular kind of running around in circles
and bumping into eachother's arguements
and recieving reports a year late
and filing motions to ask people about what's going on
and having debates where everyone agrees with everyone}
...occurs on a regular basis, It's very off-putting to actually watch it happen.

Surely, even with An Taisce sitting on the bird sanctuary, it must be a fairly clear process that must happen right? It's a pitty that there's no one in particular who nudges this process along, so we have to sit back and watch for another decade while people keep shrugging about an 8m wide platform that everyone wants.

Cookie_Monster

I really don't get how it takes so so long to do something so simple.

Just do it already or finally bury the plans and just get people to use the roads.

This is what they could do:
http://www.newplymouthnz.com/VisitingNewPlymouth/Attractions/CoastalWalkway.htm

This is the walkway / cycleway we have locally, it's a fantastic resource and shows what can be done with a bit of interest from a council.

brownbeard

Didn't know where else this might belong, and I'm not quite sure if these qualify as the complete off-road segregation that you're reffering to OP, but it might be worth noting the amount of improvement works to the segregated cycle tracks on the N11.

Was just out for a ride on some of the newly completed sections and the difference is incredible. No more yo-yoing at every entrance to every driveway, no more rumple strip things and the surface is flatter and smoother than the N11 itself. It seems they're finally listening to feedbackfrom actual cyclists. I'm pleasantly surprised, but it only seems to be the outbound sections that they're working on. And a lot of the junctions still seem to be quite dangerous.

nomdeboardie

brownbeard wrote: »

Didn't know where else this might belong, and I'm not quite sure if these qualify as the complete off-road segregation that you're reffering to OP, but it might be worth noting the amount of improvement works to the segregated cycle tracks on the N11.

Was just out for a ride on some of the newly completed sections and the difference is incredible. No more yo-yoing at every entrance to every driveway, no more rumple strip things and the surface is flatter and smoother than the N11 itself. It seems they're finally listening to feedbackfrom actual cyclists. I'm pleasantly surprised, but it only seems to be the outbound sections that they're working on. And a lot of the junctions still seem to be quite dangerous.

Which bits – near city centre (I haven't been that way on the N11 for a while)? I've gone a few times on the Loughlinstown to Cornelscourt section (which would be Dun Laoghaire Rathdown council) for the first time recently, and I'm already thinking of ways to avoid it (including taking my chances on the dual carriageway bus lane). To further continue on this tangent, I wonder if they'd do anything about the Leopardstown Road track – I've gone that route a few times recently also, and the last couple of trips I just stayed on the road, the most recent time I think incurring aggression from a car. Must contact DLRCOCO. Meanwhile, I've been trying to re-contact a guy in the Dept of Transport who told me in summer 2010 that he was expecting the proposed legislation for the revocation of the mandatory use regulation for cycle lanes to progress by the end of that year... If it ever happens, I will print copies to wave in the faces of disbelievers and to have flutter in my cold dead hand as I’m scraped off the roadway :P

p

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I really don't get how it takes so so long to do something so simple.

Just do it already or finally bury the plans and just get people to use the roads.

This is what they could do:
http://www.newplymouthnz.com/VisitingNewPlymouth/Attractions/CoastalWalkway.htm

This is the walkway / cycleway we have locally, it's a fantastic resource and shows what can be done with a bit of interest from a council.

Nice however:
"1997: Planning for the Coastal Walkway began.
December 2010: The entire length of the Coastal Walkway extension is opened for public use."

These things take time. It's not simple, it's highly complex with many differing and conflicting interests.

monument

p wrote: »

Nice however:
"1997: Planning for the Coastal Walkway began.
December 2010: The entire length of the Coastal Walkway extension is opened for public use."

These things take time. It's not simple, it's highly complex with many differing and conflicting interests.

The idea of the Sutton to Sandycove route was launched in 2002, progress have been painfully slow. It'll be soon ten years in planning.

Cookie_Monster

monument wrote: »

The idea of the Sutton to Sandycove route was launched in 2002, progress have been painfully slow. It'll be soon ten years in planning.

Is it really only 2002, thought it was much older than that.
Maybe I'm mixing it up with that walking route though, what is it, Sli na Slainte or something?

G-Man

Grand canal dublin 12 lane ends at inchicore. Alongside luas track from blackhorse to suir road is an earlier, narrower, crowded lane which gets you as far as Suir Road. Then it ends...

An improvement would be to improve the jct at suir road, to link more smoothly with the cycle track in the linear park alongside rialto.. Then a little investment at james walk, and your probably getting very near guinnesses brewery... Well that might make an interesting terminus for the route.... Perhaps from a tourist point of view. OK taking east bound side streets, meath place, Thomas Davis st, swift alley gets you right up to christchurch. Meath street is chocca with traffic, but the streets crossing are relatively quiet.


Problem with these is that there has to be better priority at the junctions for cyclists, (and pedestrians), might make an interesting way to extend the tourists cycling the dublin bikes down towards guinness also.

MissFlitworth

Apologies for bumping this thread, just have a question about these cycleways, for purposes of crossing at junctions are they considered part of the path or part of the road?

I had assumed they were part of the road but just nicely sectioned off and then this morning I was crossing here (light green to go on) and a car turned left across me and only a last minute, inelegant swivel + bum-flop onto the ground stopped me from going into the side of it. Lady in the car thought the cycleway was part of the path & I should have waited for pedestrian lights to cross, I thought it was part of the road & she shouldn't have tried to turn me into christmas paté, was I right?

smacl

MissFlitworth wrote: »

I had assumed they were part of the road but just nicely sectioned off and then this morning I was crossing here (light green to go on) and a car turned left across me and only a last minute, inelegant swivel + bum-flop onto the ground stopped me from going into the side of it. Lady in the car thought the cycleway was part of the path & I should have waited for pedestrian lights to cross, I thought it was part of the road & she shouldn't have tried to turn me into christmas paté, was I right?

You were right, if the cycle lane was part of the path, the double yellow lines would have been on the other side of it. That said, and as per G-Mans last post as well, cycle lanes are very dodgy at junctions. If I was stopped at lights here with the intention of going on, I'd tend to leave the cycle lane so that cars couldn't overtake me to turn left. They shouldn't do this, but regularly do. While it's counter intuitive, IMHO, if often makes sense to ignore cycle lanes anywhere near a junction or roundabout.

Stollaire

MissFlitworth wrote: »

Apologies for bumping this thread, just have a question about these cycleways, for purposes of crossing at junctions are they considered part of the path or part of the road?

I had assumed they were part of the road but just nicely sectioned off and then this morning I was crossing here (light green to go on) and a car turned left across me and only a last minute, inelegant swivel + bum-flop onto the ground stopped me from going into the side of it. Lady in the car thought the cycleway was part of the path & I should have waited for pedestrian lights to cross, I thought it was part of the road & she shouldn't have tried to turn me into christmas paté, was I right?

On this cycle path you have to wait for the green bicycle, therefore she was in the right. You ran a red.

monument

That cycle route is not open, you should not be using it, it should be closed off, they should have the dedicated lights switched on, without the dedicated lights on you could claim that the main lights apply to the cycle route -- take your pick of answers, just be careful using that route!

There's legal problems with the bicycle lights but they are due to trial them sometime next year.

Stollaire wrote: »

On this cycle path you have to wait for the green bicycle, therefore she was in the right. You ran a red.

There are no legally binding bicycle lights here, so that's not fully true even if the route was opened.

smacl

Stollaire wrote: »

On this cycle path you have to wait for the green bicycle, therefore she was in the right. You ran a red.

My bad so, obviously new addition since the google streets photograph was taken.

Stollaire

monument wrote: »

That cycle route is not open, you should not be using it, it should be closed off, they should have the dedicated lights switched on, without the dedicated lights on you could claim that the main lights apply to the cycle route -- take your pick of answers, just be careful using that route!

There's legal problems with the bicycle lights but they are due to trial them sometime next year.


There are no legally binding bicycle lights here, so that's not fully true even if the route was opened.

When is it due to open?

MissFlitworth

Stollaire wrote: »

On this cycle path you have to wait for the green bicycle, therefore she was in the right. You ran a red.

I'll go back & check this afternoon but I don't think there is a 'green bicycle' here, only the regular traffic lights. I could be wrong but I'll check & make sure.

Stollaire

MissFlitworth wrote: »

I'll go back & check this afternoon but I don't think there is a 'green bicycle' here, only the regular traffic lights. I could be wrong but I'll check & make sure.

Its there alright, but just not activated as monument pointed out.

monument

Stollaire wrote: »

When is it due to open?

The council has missed several deadlines already but told me it is now due to be completed March 2012, the lights could be back on before this.

MissFlitworth wrote: »

I'll go back & check this afternoon but I don't think there is a 'green bicycle' here, only the regular traffic lights. I could be wrong but I'll check & make sure.

It's not a green light, but a small set of bicycle traffic lights which are off at the moment or have been off recently.

Here's the way the lights were planned to work: http://cyclingindublin.com/2011/09/11/dublins-new-canal-cycleway-traffic-lights/

-K2-

The sooner the bike light situation is sorted out the better. All of the junctions are a mess with conflicts between bikes, pedestrians and left-turning cars.

I was stopped on a bike at one junction waiting for the pedestrian crossing sequence to end (and peds to clear the junction) when a courier cycled past me shouting that I could "legally cycle through on a green man since it's a bike lane" :rolleyes:.

This is not an attack on couriers, just an indication of the confusion which has been created.