The futility of a life served to anything other than God

JimiTime

A recent event got me thinking, How futile, how vain life without God is. Being finite, is such a nothing. You can be what the world calls a success, and be nothing real in the grand scheme of things.

We can be the biggest success in terms of this world, but get run down by a bus tomorrow, or lose a child etc, and all the wealth and achievement is laid bare. you're gone. Others may romanticise about legacies etc, but ultimately your life is gone.

Its particularly pertinent for me that this thought has come to me at this point as I strive for worldly wealth all too much, and am anxious of my tomorrows.

In the words of Solomon, 'Its all vanity'. Without God, ultimately, you are nothing! I believe this, yet the illogically continue to ignore it! Yet you see people who have everything we call success, but in an instant that can just be wiped out. There can be lines of people queueing up to romanticise about people living on in memories, or in their children (If they have them), or in their legacies, but ultimately, this is sentiment isn't it? In real terms, Its striving for Godly things that gives us something real and lasting.


This is an inner monologue in many ways, but I'm sure there must be many professing Christians who believe the above, but like I, illogically ignore it.

Plowman

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The Quadratic Equation

This life is a short test for the next life, which is eternal.
I have no idea what beings do in the next existence.
But I doubt shiny things, celebrity culture, fashion, vanity, self promotion and greed will be worth much there, unless of course you're sent to hell, where no doubt such childish things will be important for all eternity.

liamw

It sounds like you are referring to existential nihilism.

I don't really understand what kind of discussion you're looking for though. It's not as if god is more or less likely to exist just because he assigns some meaning to your life.

I'd suggest you ask the question on the atheist forum. I'd consider myself an existential nihilist - that ultimately everything is futile and meaningless. But that doesn't mean I can't assign meaning to my life through my actions, goals, ambitions, relationships - even if I know it is a 'short-term' meaning.

Morbert

JimiTime wrote: »

A recent event got me thinking, How futile, how vain life without God is. Being finite, is such a nothing. You can be what the world calls a success, and be nothing real in the grand scheme of things.

We can be the biggest success in terms of this world, but get run down by a bus tomorrow, or lose a child etc, and all the wealth and achievement is laid bare. you're gone. Others may romanticise about legacies etc, but ultimately your life is gone.

Its particularly pertinent for me that this thought has come to me at this point as I strive for worldly wealth all too much, and am anxious of my tomorrows.

In the words of Solomon, 'Its all vanity'. Without God, ultimately, you are nothing! I believe this, yet the illogically continue to ignore it! Yet you see people who have everything we call success, but in an instant that can just be wiped out. There can be lines of people queueing up to romanticise about people living on in memories, or in their children (If they have them), or in their legacies, but ultimately, this is sentiment isn't it? In real terms, Its striving for Godly things that gives us something real and lasting.


This is an inner monologue in many ways, but I'm sure there must be many professing Christians who believe the above, but like I, illogically ignore it.

As I said in the previous thread, this should put to rest the idea that atheism is wishful thinking, as even a life lived in devotion to Jesus is considered futile. Love of God, like the love of family, or of material wealth, is snuffed out in death.

lmaopml

I guess we all wonder about our 'mortality' at some stage - some fret and others blatantly ignore it until it hits them on a sunny Sunday morning. Others don't get the opportunity to even ponder it until it hits them.

Death takes no prisoners.

Do I believe that it should be something to 'fret' over for personal security - certainly not ( Of course I avoid it as much as possible everyday though..lol )! Do I believe that fear of death is a 'reason' to believe in immortality of the soul - absolutely not. Life is a fabulous journey for both believer and non believer, but both end up 'dying' at some stage.

I think people will inevitably face the 'question of God' at some stage in their lives - (Actually I think it would be impossible not to have that sense of wonder that begs the question..) It's difficult for a believer; in the face of a rational and 'reason' based humanity to describe 'why' they believe there is anything beyond death. Why the awe, and following on from it, why the 'religion'? etc.

It's actually a very personal journey for every individual and how they relate to the world and the sense of spirit, i.e. 'more' if you like about the individual person that almost everybody 'senses'..at some stage and perhaps 'categorises' in their mind.

I think it would be immensely difficult to just ignore it without it tapping you on the shoulder to find exactly where you fit in with your peers etc. and contemporary belief or understanding.

One thing is for sure, neither the atheist or Christian etc. has the 'upper' ground where death is concerned - but both will give unproveable 'facts' that they believe about life, or lack of it after we expire.

Personally, I think the sense of wonder for me, comes from the sense of exploration and enquiry, the 'beauty' of the world is, in both it's ugliness and by contrast it's heroism?....

... and not a little by the aesthetic beauty of love, life, friendship etc. not 'mere' mechanics and chemical interactions etc, but also the mechanics of life, the wonderful way we can explore and actually understand and define the mechanics, the mathematics, the tip of the ice-berg really - and hell just the reason why it all works so beautifully...there is beauty in exploration and understanding, in theorems and theory and in why we can even theorise and sometimes hit the jackpot.

The lightning is awesome, the human body, the brain, the green grass and blue sky etc. is also awesome - actually understanding 'why' it works that way, why it even 'should' is even more beautiful iykwim. That's where I find God speaks most to me if that makes any sense...

JimiTime

Just to clarify, Its not that I believe I should just sit around and do nothing:) its that what I believe SHOULD be done, is to strive for Godly things rather than worldly things. Striving for worldly things is whats ultimately futile. I'm not depressingly forlorn thinking about mortality, just taking stock of priorities. Putting to the fore in my mind, that I as a Christian should strive with and for Christ, and not for the things of this world.

I love life, and being alive. Experiencing the joy that God created us to experience. The point I'm making, is that if we strive for worldly things, then our life is ultimately just on average just a seventy odd year experience. You may have really enjoyed it, but in the grand scheme, its meaningless.

JimiTime

Morbert wrote: »

As I said in the previous thread, this should put to rest the idea that atheism is wishful thinking, as even a life lived in devotion to Jesus is considered futile. Love of God, like the love of family, or of material wealth, is snuffed out in death.

Not so. Its the opposite in fact. Loving God, loving ones neighbour, and being devoted to such Godly things means that due to Christs gift of salvation, death has no power over us. Love of the material, and the things of this world are futile though, as ultimately, death arrives.

irishh_bob

JimiTime wrote: »

Just to clarify, Its not that I believe I should just sit around and do nothing:) its that what I believe SHOULD be done, is to strive for Godly things rather than worldly things. Striving for worldly things is whats ultimately futile. I'm not depressingly forlorn thinking about mortality, just taking stock of priorities. Putting to the fore in my mind, that I as a Christian should strive with and for Christ, and not for the things of this world.

I love life, and being alive. Experiencing the joy that God created us to experience. The point I'm making, is that if we strive for worldly things, then our life is ultimately just on average just a seventy odd year experience. You may have really enjoyed it, but in the grand scheme, its meaningless.

what about the misery that god created for us to experience ? , trouble with believers is that they credit god with all that is possitve and let him - her - it off the hook for everything that is negative

old hippy

I'm of the opinion that belief in God or gods is a vanity. Mankind created a supreme being in their own image & not the other way round. This is the ultimate vanity and futility - entire lives wasted in worship of a shaky concept. Just my tuppence worth, like.

Zombrex

Ultimately it comes down to the question of do you view achievements in this life as ultimately meaningless and futile if you eventually won't exist any more to see the fruits of your labour.

I have a degree of sympathy with this view, but there is something nobel in the idea of doing something for others even if you will not experience this.

Zombrex

old hippy wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that belief in God or gods is a vanity. Mankind created a supreme being in their own image & not the other way round. This is the ultimate vanity and futility - entire lives wasted in worship of a shaky concept. Just my tuppence worth, like.

What does that have to do with the thread?

Plowman

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old hippy

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Sure thing. Can we also avoid such sweeping remarks as "How futile, how vain life without God is."

Lots of us people have enriching, happy lives without your gods in them and to be told otherwise is pretty presumptious.

Zombrex

old hippy wrote: »

Lots of us people have enriching, happy lives without your gods in them and to be told otherwise is pretty presumptious.

not on the Christianity forum. :rolleyes:

What next, very presumptuous for Liverpool fans to claim that Liverpool has the best supporters on the Liverpool soccer forum? :P

old hippy

Zombrex wrote: »

not on the Christianity forum. :rolleyes:

What next, very presumptuous for Liverpool fans to claim that Liverpool has the best supporters on the Liverpool soccer forum? :P

Morbert

JimiTime wrote: »

Not so. Its the opposite in fact. Loving God, loving ones neighbour, and being devoted to such Godly things means that due to Christs gift of salvation, death has no power over us. Love of the material, and the things of this world are futile though, as ultimately, death arrives.

How is this relevant to anything I said? I said atheists can't be accused of wishful thinking, as we believe everything is futile, even belief in God. Do you disagree? Do you think the belief that everything is futile is wishful thinking?

old hippy

This argument is futile ;)

JimiTime

Morbert wrote: »

How is this relevant to anything I said? I said atheists can't be accused of wishful thinking, as we believe everything is futile, even belief in God. Do you disagree? Do you think the belief that everything is futile is wishful thinking?

Apologies, I thought you were asserting that serving God was also futile.

JimiTime

Zombrex wrote: »

Ultimately it comes down to the question of do you view achievements in this life as ultimately meaningless and futile if you eventually won't exist any more to see the fruits of your labour.

Thats part of it. Your existence, memories, experiences, everything will be gone from you. Subjectively and relative to our lives, we can feel relatively fulfilled etc at death. Looking at our children, or our achievements etc and accepting death. Of course, the 20 year old who gets killed by car etc will have no such feeling. Its not like we all get 80 years and then we peacefully go to the land of nod.

So as a Christian, with something objective, the futility of worldly things is laid bare. Its like, you have 2 options.
1) You can do whatever you can to become a success in this world, you may make it, or you may not, you may strive and strive for it, and you may attain it. BUT, you may also be struck down tomorrow, or the year after you reach your goal. So whether you'll be 20 or 80, you WILL lose your life.

2) You can strive for God, put your talents/skills/person at his disposal, and not seek the successes and wealth of this world. By doing this, you will GAIN your life.

I have a degree of sympathy with this view, but there is something nobel in the idea of doing something for others even if you will not experience this.

There is certainly nobility in that, and believer and unbeliever alike look to set up their families in the event of their demise etc. Its what Love provokes us into doing. Its not a contest to see who can sacrifice the most though or to see who's more noble. As Christ said, 'I want love not sacrifice'. I agree that a person who lays their life down believing that this life is all you got is making a greater sacrifice than someone who lays their life down in the knowledge that theres something more. I'm sure the guy who believes that this life is all there is though, would be delighted if in losing his life, he actually gained it.

irishh_bob

old hippy wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that belief in God or gods is a vanity. Mankind created a supreme being in their own image & not the other way round. This is the ultimate vanity and futility - entire lives wasted in worship of a shaky concept. Just my tuppence worth, like.

absoutley , god is created in the immage of man which would explain his aray of contradictions

lmaopml

Morbert wrote: »

How is this relevant to anything I said? I said atheists can't be accused of wishful thinking, as we believe everything is futile, even belief in God. Do you disagree? Do you think the belief that everything is futile is wishful thinking?

Even as a Christian I don't believe that anybodies life is 'futile' in the real sense of the word - Life is what it is, for everybody... and I guess 'futility' means any lack of 'value' no contribution, nothing worthwhile done etc. and that can mean many things to many people - and one doesn't have to be 'Christian' to contribute to multitudes either, and become immortal in the shadowy sense of the word.

Absolutely humans, atheists, religious etc. have made contributions that make them ( in their own way ) live beyond death.

I guess some people die screaming and shouting and full of regrets, others peacefully etc. I don't think you have to be a 'Christian' to die peacefully, despite the 'Christian' perspective on 'Judgement' etc. - actually I'm quite sure that many mere people don't die altogether happy, but certainly not feeling they were 'futile' either. ( Sounds extreme? )

I also think that many atheists too are more than a little 'unsure' of their surety about 'the meaning of life' and all the questions, the doubts, etc.

...Many only scrape the surface of what 'they' as an individual believe, both the believer and unbeliever, and very many are said and led in the comfort of numbers...It's very difficult to just be yourself, and I think knowing yourself is the beginnings of knowing your life is not futile. No life is futile, every single one counts...and every single one from a Christian perspective is worthwhile and of infinite value.

finty

JimiTime wrote: »

2) You can strive for God, put your talents/skills/person at his disposal, and not seek the successes and wealth of this world. By doing this, you will GAIN your life.

I'm curious about how you do this, can you explain?

Morbert

lmaopml wrote: »

Even as a Christian I don't believe that anybodies life is 'futile' in the real sense of the word - Life is what it is, for everybody... and I guess 'futility' means any lack of 'value' no contribution, nothing worthwhile done etc. and that can mean many things to many people - and one doesn't have to be 'Christian' to contribute to multitudes either, and become immortal in the shadowy sense of the word.

Absolutely humans, atheists, religious etc. have made contributions that make them ( in their own way ) live beyond death.

I guess some people die screaming and shouting and full of regrets, others peacefully etc. I don't think you have to be a 'Christian' to die peacefully, despite the 'Christian' perspective on 'Judgement' etc. - actually I'm quite sure that many mere people don't die altogether happy, but certainly not feeling they were 'futile' either. ( Sounds extreme? )

I also think that many atheists too are more than a little 'unsure' of their surety about 'the meaning of life' and all the questions, the doubts, etc.

...Many only scrape the surface of what 'they' as an individual believe, both the believer and unbeliever, and very many are said and led in the comfort of numbers...It's very difficult to just be yourself, and I think knowing yourself is the beginnings of knowing your life is not futile. No life is futile, every single one counts...and every single one from a Christian perspective is worthwhile and of infinite value.

If a person doesn't attempt to overcome death - if they are content with the privileges they have been given - they could not be accused of engaging in futile attempts I suppose.

I often hear of people talk about living on through the memory of others. But this seems to be poetic language, as anything that makes us alive is gone. Plus, with the exception of a few people lucky enough to be recorded by history, memories of us vanish in just a handful of generations. I have no idea who my nth great grandfather was 20,000 years ago.

philologos

This article came up on my Facebook feed this morning. I thought it was a pretty good Christian response to Steve Jobs' death.

There's another good article on it here.

santing

finty wrote: »

I'm curious about how you do this, can you explain?

It starts with meaning it when you say "Thy will be done ...." The next step will involve you asking God what His will is for your life. He may not answer immediately, but wants you to grow in knowing Him more first.

Winty

JimiTime wrote: »

A recent event got me thinking, How futile, how vain life without God is.

I find life without a God to be full and complete without the shackles of a sole suppressing dogma.

Few have been murdered in the pursuit of atheism.

Fanny Cradock

Winty wrote: »

I find life without a God to be full and complete without the shackles of a sole suppressing dogma.

You're an atheist. You can't believe in a soul. Sole, however, is delicious when lightly fried in butter and lemon. Speaking of fish, you present a red herring when you state that few have been murdered in the name of atheism. Atheism is merely the antithesis to theism. It's what gets bundled along with either of these world-views (for example nationalism) that can, in certain cases, be the cause of great evil. I assume you believe in evil, right?

Roger Hassenforder

Assuming as the OP has posted in this forum he/she believes they have the right God, as Im sure every other theist does, and so their life isnt futile. Every religon can make this claim, are you so confident your supporting the right team? or could it be that as your parents were of the same belief system, that rather than investigate other systems, you've pitched your tent with them?

Agree though that there is a lot more to living than achieving success, where we part is I think we should put more effort in living in the here and now, as this is it:

we probably agree we wont go to Yalu and accompany the sun on its daily ride accross the sky becaue Osiris was made up by a primitive people...

We probably agree that we wont go to hades as Zeus was made up by a more advanced, but comparatively primitive people...

we probably agree that we wont go to Guatecast where the fish jump into your boat after death....

and we probably agree that when we die we dont go to the tip of the North island, dive into the water and turn into dolphins as the Maori made that up....

I just incllude the tenets of a fairly unsophisticated desert tribe with a remarkably inconsistent god, and their off shoot to my system.

lmaopml

Morbert wrote: »

If a person doesn't attempt to overcome death - if they are content with the privileges they have been given - they could not be accused of engaging in futile attempts I suppose.

I often hear of people talk about living on through the memory of others. But this seems to be poetic language, as anything that makes us alive is gone. Plus, with the exception of a few people lucky enough to be recorded by history, memories of us vanish in just a handful of generations. I have no idea who my nth great grandfather was 20,000 years ago.

I think I would agree with you that if the ultimate goal is to overcome 'death' than there is something decidedly wrong with that motivation, nobody lives forever...death doesn't discriminate.

'You' are the result of your most likely very bright great grandfather Morbert..you were meant to be, and just the way you are too. In fact, exactly the way you are.


..However, ( there is always a 'However') I don't think that living forever is the motivation for most people, death is part of life, everybody knows it - even Christians.

We collectively fear it and embrace it, and some have a rather peculiar fascination with it even while life is short. There is 'joy', such profound 'joy' to be found in life, in mostly the small things and quiet things. It's there, and it's very real, and very exciting too..it's pretty cool this life..we do our best and try to be real no matter...It's genuine to be just real and honest and full of doubt too..nothing wrong with that.

JimiTime

lmaopml wrote: »

Even as a Christian I don't believe that anybodies life is 'futile' in the real sense of the word

Actually, in the REAL sense of the word, I don't think you can argue the above. Remember, we are speaking in terms of Christianity, and the promises of Christ, the ultimate Goal that God has for us etc. So there is no doubt, that in that context, a life lived for something other than God is ultimately fultile. Of course, subjectivity is a different story. Subjectively, a person can feel many things, including fulfillment, but ultimately, he/she falls asleep in death. So when we shine the objective light on things, we can see that once God is in play, life is about him. Everything else is merely distraction.

- Life is what it is, for everybody... and I guess 'futility' means any lack of 'value' no contribution, nothing worthwhile done etc. and that can mean many things to many people - and one doesn't have to be 'Christian' to contribute to multitudes either, and become immortal in the shadowy sense of the word.

Borderline poetic sentiment there, but again, you are putting the wrong context on the point of the OP. We can seek and find subjective value etc, but in light of the fact that this world is going to pass away, and the fact that us as people also pass away, then the eternal promises of God render the strivings for worldly things futile.

Absolutely humans, atheists, religious etc. have made contributions that make them ( in their own way ) live beyond death.

Again, this is just sentiment. It doesn't really mean anything beyond that. the fact is, they haven't lived on, they are ACTUALLY dead. Now if there was no God, then we could all have our subjective meaning value etc, but in light of God, we have an ACTUAL objective truth, so sentiment should be put aside in light of that.

I guess some people die screaming and shouting and full of regrets, others peacefully etc. I don't think you have to be a 'Christian' to die peacefully, despite the 'Christian' perspective on 'Judgement' etc. - actually I'm quite sure that many mere people don't die altogether happy, but certainly not feeling they were 'futile' either. ( Sounds extreme? )

Of course, but again, objectively speaking, whatever someone subjectively believes, if the objective truth is there, then it simply voids the subjectivity.

No life is futile, every single one counts...and every single one from a Christian perspective is worthwhile and of infinite value.

Again, in the context of the OP, I would say that is simply not so. I think the issue here is that you are uncomfortable with the force of the language used, but i also think you are putting the OP into the wrong context. My great great great grandfather may have been an unrepentant satan worshipper, but through the generations, God fearing, dedicated Christians may have risen up from his seed. So in that type of way, there is purpose, but to the actual man himself who lived outside of God, death snatched him up. His life has been lost, where it could have been gained. Whether he sought to gain it or not, if God is the objective truth, then he did lose a life he could have gained.

jill_valentine

Made my flatmate laugh at a stupid pun about tea few minutes ago ("Catastrophtea", in case you're wondering) and honestly, if it was the last thing I did on earth, I'd be alright about that.

The sum of your life is only futile if you don't value your here and now, or the people you share it with.

JimiTime

jill_valentine wrote: »

Made my flatmate laugh at a stupid pun about tea few minutes ago ("Catastrophtea", in case you're wondering) and honestly, if it was the last thing I did on earth, I'd be alright about that.

The sum of your life is only futile if you don't value your here and now, or the people you share it with.

Again, subjectively speaking, there is no arguement with that. We can all say such or feel such things, and I put much value in the Love etc that I experience in the here and now. This is not about being forlorn in a 'Its all worthless, life is so meaningless, boo hoo glum'. Its about realising the objective truth of God and his promises, and realising that we can have short term enjoyments, fulfillments, achievements etc, but ultimately we die, when we could live. Not just live neither, but have a life lived with a promise from our loving creator that it will be life as it was intended. In light of such things, striving for anything other than the Godly is futile.

antiskeptic

JimiTime wrote: »

Actually, in the REAL sense of the word, I don't think you can argue the above. Remember, we are speaking in terms of Christianity, and the promises of Christ, the ultimate Goal that God has for us etc. So there is no doubt, that in that context, a life lived for something other than God is ultimately fultile.

If you are supposing that God's desired purpose for us is second to his desire that we get to choose for and against him then I don't see how a life lived for self (unto damnation) is futile.

In exercising a choice against God a person would be fulfilling an overriding purpose he had for them. That they can choose. A choice against God is a valuable (to God) as a choice for him - otherwise no choice has value.

JimiTime

antiskeptic wrote: »

If you are supposing that God's desired purpose for us is second to his desire that we get to choose for and against him then I don't see how a life lived for self (unto damnation) is futile.

Its futile for the person who 'chooses' not to strive for God. Though I must say, the whole 'choice' thing is debatable. I don't think everyone 'chooses' to follow God, or not follow him. Someone who doesn't believe, simply lives their lives and makes their choices on the basis that God isn't there. Thats not exactly choice, as for them there is nothing to choose between.

Ultimately, a life that ends in death, not gaining Gods promises is ultimately futile to the person. You may think it has a purpose in terms of God etc, but to the person, their life has been extinguished, and all their worldly wares will also pass away.

In exercising a choice against God a person would be fulfilling an overriding purpose he had for them. That they can choose. A choice against God is a valuable (to God) as a choice for him - otherwise no choice has value.

Making the wrong choice (If we assume its been a choice), means that their life has been ultimately laid to waste. They've chose the futility of the temporal, rather than the eternal.

antiskeptic

JimiTime wrote: »

Its futile for the person who 'chooses' not to strive for God.

Not if their choice is considered valuable by God (even if what they choose is valueless).

Though I must say, the whole 'choice' thing is debatable. I don't think everyone 'chooses' to follow God, or not follow him. Someone who doesn't believe, simply lives their lives and makes their choices on the basis that God isn't there. Thats not exactly choice, as for them there is nothing to choose between.

Ugh! You're not a Calvinist are you? (only kidding WB) I often wonder what they think the basis for God picking this one for salvation and that one for damnation actually is. Do they suppose he rolls dice?

Ultimately, a life that ends in death, not gaining Gods promises is ultimately futile to the person. You may think it has a purpose in terms of God etc, but to the person, their life has been extinguished, and all their worldly wares will also pass away.

I would agree that the person will come to see their no-God option as futile - when all is revealed. Up to that point they might revel in maintaining their independence but when they see how beautiful they were intended to be - and see how ugly they've chosen to remain - they will mourn. And will in all likelyhood, detest themselves and consider themselves most foolish.

But in the sense that God's plan is executed, their lives and choices were anything but futile.

Making the wrong choice (If we assume its been a choice), means that their life has been ultimately laid to waste. They've chose the futility of the temporal, rather than the eternal.

True

PDN

I think Jimitime and antiskeptic are talking past each other to some extent, because Jimi uses 'futile' in a personal sense, wheras antiskeptic uses it in a cosmic sense.

Here's an illustration. Every year hundreds of teams, including those in the qualifying rounds, try to win the FA Cup. But only one team actually wins the trophy.

You could argue ( a la Jimi) that every team that competed last year, except Man City, did so with futility.

You could also argue (a la antiskeptic) that the competition only has value inasmuch as lots of teams participate. If the only team that entered the FA Cup was Man City, then awarding the trophy to them would be futile.

In the same way, making a choice to accept or reject Christ is the core of the Gospel. But, if every single person that ever lived made the correct decision, then we would have to question how real the choice was. The fact that some people choose to reject Christ demonstrates that the choice is real, and therefore that the whole thing makes sense.

Does that help? Or are we even more confused now?

Badgermonkey

JimiTime wrote: »

I thought you were asserting that serving God was also futile.

It may ultimately prove to be so. Should that be the case, it won't irk you post mortem.

JimiTime

Badgermonkey wrote: »

It may ultimately prove to be so. Should that be the case, it won't irk you post mortem.

True:)

lmaopml

JimiTime wrote: »

Actually, in the REAL sense of the word, I don't think you can argue the above. Remember, we are speaking in terms of Christianity, and the promises of Christ, the ultimate Goal that God has for us etc. So there is no doubt, that in that context, a life lived for something other than God is ultimately fultile. Of course, subjectivity is a different story. Subjectively, a person can feel many things, including fulfillment, but ultimately, he/she falls asleep in death. So when we shine the objective light on things, we can see that once God is in play, life is about him. Everything else is merely distraction.


Borderline poetic sentiment there, but again, you are putting the wrong context on the point of the OP. We can seek and find subjective value etc, but in light of the fact that this world is going to pass away, and the fact that us as people also pass away, then the eternal promises of God render the strivings for worldly things futile.


Again, this is just sentiment. It doesn't really mean anything beyond that. the fact is, they haven't lived on, they are ACTUALLY dead. Now if there was no God, then we could all have our subjective meaning value etc, but in light of God, we have an ACTUAL objective truth, so sentiment should be put aside in light of that.



Of course, but again, objectively speaking, whatever someone subjectively believes, if the objective truth is there, then it simply voids the subjectivity.



Again, in the context of the OP, I would say that is simply not so. I think the issue here is that you are uncomfortable with the force of the language used, but i also think you are putting the OP into the wrong context. My great great great grandfather may have been an unrepentant satan worshipper, but through the generations, God fearing, dedicated Christians may have risen up from his seed. So in that type of way, there is purpose, but to the actual man himself who lived outside of God, death snatched him up. His life has been lost, where it could have been gained. Whether he sought to gain it or not, if God is the objective truth, then he did lose a life he could have gained.

I understand what you are saying Jimi - that Christians share what we believe is the objective reality - that life without God is futile. I think it is too in the sense of becoming 'saved' - and that there is only the narrow path to that end. Where that path twists and turns can be disarming and very many times not typical though..but the destination may be the very same.

I guess that even if somebody 'seems' to approach life like money is their God, or survival is their God, or indeed their family, their intellect, their clothing etc. etc. etc. then they are still God's child - still running the race..

However, and perhaps it is a little on the sentimental side, and I do like a bit of poetry and also poetic justice too..lol.... I still don't believe that anybodies life is in actuality 'futile' - yes futile if the driver is to become 'saved', but not necessarily futile always in the sense of contributing hugely to humanity....I don't know how God judges those things, even if the person was questioning their faith and had their own dark nights of the soul....and moments of anger etc. at God, (if it's for an unselfish reason) at least they are very real and very honest...

Sorry, I know I tend to ramble, and perhaps lose the point a little sometimes.

hinault

JimiTime wrote: »

A recent event got me thinking, How futile, how vain life without God is. Being finite, is such a nothing. You can be what the world calls a success, and be nothing real in the grand scheme of things.

We can be the biggest success in terms of this world, but get run down by a bus tomorrow, or lose a child etc, and all the wealth and achievement is laid bare. you're gone. Others may romanticise about legacies etc, but ultimately your life is gone.

Its particularly pertinent for me that this thought has come to me at this point as I strive for worldly wealth all too much, and am anxious of my tomorrows.

In the words of Solomon, 'Its all vanity'. Without God, ultimately, you are nothing! I believe this, yet the illogically continue to ignore it! Yet you see people who have everything we call success, but in an instant that can just be wiped out. There can be lines of people queueing up to romanticise about people living on in memories, or in their children (If they have them), or in their legacies, but ultimately, this is sentiment isn't it? In real terms, Its striving for Godly things that gives us something real and lasting.


This is an inner monologue in many ways, but I'm sure there must be many professing Christians who believe the above, but like I, illogically ignore it.

great post.

I think that Jesus did teach that God had to be central to our lives but Jesus did also preach about the practicalities of life as well.

But you're right without God, we're nothing:)

yammycat

Newsflash: person finds concept of extinction after death difficult, turns to ideas of god and everlasting life.

PDN

yammycat wrote: »

Newsflash: person finds concept of extinction after death difficult, turns to ideas of god and everlasting life.

Newsflash: person who rejects God can't help posting pointless jibes in the Christianity Forum.